Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Seacore]

I've looked over Wicked's posts in regards to his plan (Plan B) and I've found some issues with it.

1) He points out it's geared towards murderers (or potential murderers) more than it is towards cultists.
But he also points out that waiting until Night 1 to start your murdering plan is dumb, because it makes it so much harder to win.
Well, we've only got one murderer who meets this criteria, maybe two if there was a double up (either cult also tried to kill LB, and a murderer attacked Wicked, or both murderers attacked LB, or whatever) but the odds are, we've got 1 potential murderer until we see what happens tonight.

So given there's only 1 murderer who meets Wicked's own declaration of 'a murderer with a chance at winning' lets focus on the 7 cultists.

2) Andrius, I still don't know why he's the other person in the plan. It seems like it's Wicked's choice. I agree that Andrius is scummy, but I think we should go with group decisions in this.

3) As AV just mentioned, it screws with laundering. All three bloody people are forced to stay bloody. (This isn't too big a deal, because they're also forced to take no other action, so we know they can't be getting fresh blood)

[Benmage]

I think they should launder, so A is my pick as well. Plus I like the 4 town representatives in A.

[Furpants_Tom]

I don't understand the advantage of B, so I'll

vote A

, which works in an obvious manner. It remains a pity that Furcolow can't be drafted in, but I'm no longer really sure if we're playing the same game as him.

I think VP's resus list is superior, because it excludes people who have been warded.

I think you're mistaken. The only difference between our lists is that mine includes VasudeVa, VP Baltar himself, Wickedestjr and xvart, none of whom have been warded. VP Baltar and xvart heard noise yesterday, VasudeVa today. The cult also does not lose their fetish when the ritual fails, so there must still be a fetish of Wickedestjr. I remember seeing that question asked before.

Um, yes, good point. I assumed that's why they weren't on the list; but actually doing my homework reveals that's not the case. Why didn't they (and you) make your list, VP?

[Wraith]

If I happen to get an insanity tonight I will probably be taking Solist. I don't really plan on searching for more equipment and I don't think anyone wants me robbing graves.

[Seacore]

Wraith- vote for a graverob plan.

Vote A - 4 votes
Vote B - 0 votes.

[Plum]

Okay, I apologize for not being around much this week, really (NaNoWriMo is eating up a lot of my time and if it continues to be a major problem I will consider replacing out for the good of the game &c.)

Here’s the facts of the matter. I’m going to be dead today. I don’t really have the energy or will to put on a big, blustery show of why what amounts to a ‘Path of Least Resistance’ wagon on me is a bad Idea.

I’m not Cult. Cult knows this. Cult has every reason to cruise along with the flow of the tide and not make waves as I get wagonned. Is every Cult member going to do so? Nope … but some will. And you are a PRIME candidate for doing just that.

Not make waves? Hm? Does it count if I happily watch people add their votes on to you on top of my own? And are you finally outright accusing me of being scummy?

I've had enough of your stupidity here. I happen to know that you're not stupid, but acting like you are isn't winning you any points. Kinda like what SpyreX said about the acting scummy on purpose thing . . . the fact that your play went down this path, intentionally or not. Is not license for you to sit back, self-vote, call your wagon an easy one and toast yourself. While calling other people stupid. In other words, cheers.

If Plum is town how come she is voting Wraith? Is Wraith scum and Triglav missed the memo? Triglav is horribly lost in a miasma of lostness.

@Plum

^^^ address please

She was voting Wraith because she found him likely scum. She still does, actually. The memo would be somewhere in her ISO where she discusses him towards the beginning of Day 2. Please feel free to reference this post as well.

3) RC wagon rolls up at the end of the day and MoI is an eager beaver to jump on that. We get a fancy pants iso of RC in 1171. I don't know, but I always find these post by post isos to be kind of scummy because people seem to rarely ever give the person a fair shake when doing them. I mean, seriously go back and read MoI's PBPA of RC. Essentially 90 percent of RCs posts are called scummy or fluff. I find this quite over the top by any measure. I mean, maybe I'm wrong and RC will flip scum, but I just find this kind of rhetoric excessive and unlikely to come from town. That of course, is sort of ironic, since Magna seems fond of attacking RC, Vas and others for their rhetorical statements. Now before Magna comes in and says 'ZOMG VAS DID IT TO ME TOOOOO,' yes I realize he did. I think he was being over the top as well, but I also feel like you were winding him up with your antagonism from his original points on you. I still find it scummy regardless, but yours on RC is worse because nothing provoked it other than you trying to trump up your vote.

This whole point is carefully fabricated bullshit. Had you read my ISO you would have seen my questions and criticisms of RC’s play throughout the Day BEFORE the RC wagon formed. Since you didn’t here are the ISOs for you (8,17,18 ). Yet somehow you are attempting to portray my suspicion of RC as fabricated out of mid-air. Both incorrect and scumtastic.

I'd like to reference some scum meta of MoI's, if I may:

As far as I can tell, Magna's opinions have not evolved at all since his entrance to the game. Which could be fine, but then it seems that a lot of his big fancy-looking posts are just taking people he already suspects and rehashes them in an iso which only ever dissects things to find more scummy stuff.

If you can’t tell that my opinions have changed they you need to read more carefully. Or the move ate significant posts. Manho, based on my initial read through, was my second choice as scum. Based on my detailed ISO and his responses he’s moved well down the ladder in my opinion. And sorry if analyzing posts looking for scummy motivations isn’t what you consider scum-hunting. Strike that, I’m not sorry. If you don’t like how I scum hunt that’s your issue not mine.

So yeah, make of that what you will. I've also seen him heavily attack theoretically bad play (which is often not a sign of scumhood at all) when he's scum.

Pin NPAU as scum between him and Feysal, gievn the repeated question dodging (when asked a second time, and asked why he didn't respond to my initial question re: why he chose to Rez Wicked, he said to Furpants_Tom 'What are you trying to elicit from my response? And why not ask Feysal? Is it because ... I'm voting you?' So yeah, dodging justified by implied and illegitimate accusations of OMGUS makes for scummy guy).

Having read through Kunk's responses to Wicked's case and read Wicked's responses back, Kunk is maybe on the scum side of neutral for me; in this game at this stage that's frankly not saying much. I don't see that he's right at the bottom of the bad/lacking scumhunting pack. I am certainly interested in looking at any possible connections with MoI, but that's probably most effective

after

MoI dies. Which he must.

Wraith is scum, with kunkstar, for his IGMEOY but not vote in the last post.

Maybe not quite; I'd put this down as a Wraith-specific scumtell; we don't have enough information to determine what bearing it would have on Kunk's alignment.

Why do you think npau is the more likely cult?

Because Feysal had a properly thought out reason as to why he protected Wicked when initially asked. Npau had just entered the game, and had presumably just read through the whole thread - I'd assume he would be more likely to have a non-trivial, non-emotional reason for taking his night action; but it took 3 questions to get him to explain his reasoning. I realise that's weaksauce, which is why it's not yet enough to attract my vote; but it does put him ahead of Feysal on my scumometer.

Actually, this reminds me of when I was scum replacing in basically Night 1 of SAII. I got bloody Rezzing a Cult buddy of mine and wanted to claim a successful Rez. Having only skimmed most of the thread, I had to come up with some convoluted reason as to why I'd chosen to Rez the person I claimed I had. I'd assume that anyone without a good, sensible reason at hand is scummier than otherwise. Anyway, pin NPAU as scummy again.

SAII was bad only because Plum claimed to resuscitate, not to be the resuscitat-ee. Phate (I think it was Phate anyway) was basically confirmed town after he was saved. Really, it's the claimed rezzers that we have to watch closest.

THIS RIGHT HERE.

Wrath is still town and Plummen you need to look at the company you are keeping.

*checks the MoI wagon as of that post* No, actually, I don't think I do, thanks.

Could everybody not voting ElG please state why you don't believe they are scummy, when even they have admitted that they'd vote for themselves due to their behaviour?

Because as cult there would have been planning over night actions and such a useless action would have been thrown out the window. Basically why does a dumb move

have

to be scum motivated? I don't see it.

If ElG is scum, I'd doubt they actually

did

something that useless; it might be cover for all sorts of things, including cover for acting stupid and making scummy Night Action choices later in the game and excusing it with stupidity.

Dammit, being kicked off, but more later so yeah.

[Seacore]

Lets have less people missing/dodging the grave rob vote please. We wouldn't want to make it possible to accuse you of trying to keep as much chaos in the night plan as possible, now would we?

[Plum]

Sorry yar. Imma go with A.

Vote A - 5 votes
Vote B - 0 votes.

[Wraith]

I really don't care which plan we do, so long as it doesn't involve Furcolow.

[Iecerint]

nopointinactingup is an excellent example of this. He would not need to grave rob to prove himself not a murderer, because we already know he cannot be. nopoint claimed to have resuscitated Wickedestjr before he said he had been attacked. There is no way nopoint could have known Wickedestjr had been attacked if he were LB's murderer. The same unfortunately does not apply to me.

I don't understand this. You aren't told that you resuscitated successfully?

@ SC -- I missed that warding bodies gives an extra insanity. I suppose that's a point in that direction. My list is only a non-cult/cult list.

Part of the reason I was really concerned about the graves was that the rules as prior written had it so that Robbing a Warded grave would turn the body to dust without a flip. This makes it a really OP cult action. I asked Percy and Vi via PM to avoid alerting cult. Percy has told me that that wasn't the intent, and has adjusted the wording of the rules accordingly. This is what I mentioned I'd noticed earlier.

A major disadvantage of B is that Feysal & NPAU won't be able to launder, which as has just been raised, is pretty important.

Not really...the fact that they're already bloody in fact makes it BETTER for them to Rob Grave. Laundering per-se doesn't do anything for us, and whoever Robs Graves is going to be bloody either way. AND, the blood that Feysal and NPAU have is already explained-away by resuscitation, so finding it via Investigation would be stupid (in fact, it would be an ElG-tier bad action). So I dunno why you're complaining about this. BM agreeing with you makes just slightly more sense, as that is BM.

Communing them to infer Insanity status is a decent argument against Plan B, but it's not really fullproof because most of the cult is probably still insanity-free. But if we do go with A, that's a good N2 action.

One disadvantage of A that people haven't noted is that it gives Town players a bunch of insanities. This is a bad thing, because the insanities that build up eventually start affecting voting possibilities and can mess with the lynches; this happened a little in SA2.

@ SC, could you explain why Plan A does much to the cult? The idea is just that it forces them to take insanities? But it also makes the towniest players take insanities...?

Plan A is fine if I'm missing how it really does anything to Cult. Otherwise, I want to keep at least the NP/Feysal dichotomy part of Plan B in order to maximize the chance that it's an ideal Town/Scum pairing for those robberies.

I'm not voting because Plan B has that particular element that I like, even if it has other flaws (like, NP/Feysal shouldn't be on Fate, who is unlikely to have items).

[Furpants_Tom]

Not really...the fact that they're already bloody in fact makes it BETTER for them to Rob Grave. Laundering per-se doesn't do anything for us, and whoever Robs Graves is going to be bloody either way.

Robbing a grave doesn't make you bloody, just insane.

And the reason that it's a good idea to commune NPAU and Feysal tonight without them graverobbing is that the main claim against them is that one of them may have participated in the Ritual that targeted Wicked. That'd give them blood (also explained by rezzing), and one insanity (not explained by rezzing). If we check them both for insanities tonight and they're clean, we can basically confirm them as town (or as scum playing a dastardly triple-game of villainy, if you're into tinfoil hats).

[Seacore]

Plan A hits scum the same way that the NP/Feysal dichotomy hits scum. It makes them waste their entire night and gain two insanities.
The difference is that Plan A is choosing 'scum' from a group decision, i.e. The 2nd and 3rd wagons.

Plan A has 4 people we feel are town (to varying degrees), Wicked, Hito, Benmage and VP. Each of them are taking a single insanity. This is not terrible, in fact, it makes them better Communers later on. However it's also taking the popularly elected 'scummiest' and wasting their full night and giving them each two insanities.

I see your concern with the wards now, I hadn't read it that way.

Also, I believe Feysal is saying this:
Feysal and NP could be town, murderer (wannabes) or cult
However, as NP was the first to announce his rez of Wicked, and did so before Wicked had said that he was attacked, NP cannot be the killer of LB.
However however, NP could have attempted to murder Wicked and failed (but that's unlikely, as Wicked was almost certainly ritualled and with only one rez it would have gone though.
So NP may be cult (and probably is from my POV), but definitely cannot be the killer of LB.

[Iecerint]

My mistake @ the first. That changes matters. It's no longer quite as wonderful to have those two go together.

I support Plan A unless MoI flips with an Insanity. If he flips with an Insanity, the counter-wagons are no longer optimal second-robbers. NP/Feysal split beats them at that point AFAICT, because I think there's a greater chance of 1 scum in NP/Feysal than in counter-wagons to scum/Town.

[Seacore]

Fair enough, although I think ElG is easily scum with MoI

[SpyreX]

A is fine.

*checks the MoI wagon as of that post* No, actually, I don't think I do, thanks.

Que?

I didn't say anything about ohh SNAP get on MoI. I said:

Wraith - 3 (Plum, manho, AurorusVox)

THIS was the company you were keeping.

THIS isn't a function of MoI/ElG/Kunk (ALL of which are better wagons regardless of the fact Wraith is town).

So, I'm missing the "look at where you are" / "Ohh, the MoI wagon means I'm being awesome".

Unless you're talking about the wagon NOW versus when I said that in which case...what?

If ElG is scum, I'd doubt they actually did something that useless; it might be cover for all sorts of things, including cover for acting stupid and making scummy Night Action choices later in the game and excusing it with stupidity.

Of course. I didn't even think this needed to be brought up.

[Furcolow]

switch benmage and vp baltar, since there is no way benmage
1) isn't town
2) has a rez kit
+
we know RC claimed a rez kit
so
benmage might get a rez kit
and he wont skimp on robbing

[Furcolow]

nevermind
murder resolves after grave robbing
he would just waste it murdering town

[VP Baltar]

I vote for grave rob plan A obviously, since I see that as the most advantageous plan.

I believe that's

A - 8 votes
B - 1 vote (presuming Wickedestjr)

Wraith's cop out of voting for a plan is noted and I haven't put him on either wagon yet. 12 votes secures the grave rob plan.

Um, yes, good point. I assumed that's why they weren't on the list; but actually doing my homework reveals that's not the case. Why didn't they (and you) make your list, VP?

I was just throwing things together quickly yesterday morning because I didn't have a lot of time. I just went to Wicked's table and was copy pasting people who had claimed noise today but didn't have an explanation for it. I didn't go back to look at the day 1 list, but Feysal seems to be correct that those people (myself included) should be on the list.

[hitogoroshi]

Man, it's the damndest thing. I always go "Shit, I'm behind in Stars Aligned!" and then I go to the thread and it's dozens of pages of procedural bullshit. Thankfully I'm still super-happy with the MoI wagon but I don't want the same slog tomorrow because our whimsywagon might not hit scum then.

(the phrase 'whimsywagon' is not to denigrate VP et. al for their stalwart wagoning efforts)

I'll roll with plan A.

I like this bit from Plum 2265:

Not make waves? Hm? Does it count if I happily watch people add their votes on to you on top of my own? And are you finally outright accusing me of being scummy?

I've had enough of your stupidity here. I happen to know that you're not stupid, but acting like you are isn't winning you any points. Kinda like what SpyreX said about the acting scummy on purpose thing . . . the fact that your play went down this path, intentionally or not. Is not license for you to sit back, self-vote, call your wagon an easy one and toast yourself. While calling other people stupid. In other words, cheers.

Would appreciate nice clean area tags with VP's recommendations for night actions and our final designations for grave robbers. I'll make a shiny new Investigator's Reference for everyone to read. (that includes you ElG)

[VP Baltar]

Thankfully I'm still super-happy with the MoI wagon but I don't want the same slog tomorrow because our whimsywagon might not hit scum then.

I don't quite catch what you're saying here. What is the "slog" currently?

Also, I think it'd be good if you went and compiled a third "official" investigator's guide. The problem with this sort of thing is that everyone plays the game differently and is probably going to have different night strategies that they think are appropriate (especially as the days advance). I think people are picking and choosing between what I put up and what Feysal put up, so it's probably best to have you compile a third and final version that has the best of both worlds. That will be the version that everyone needs to follow tonight.

[Feysal]

nopointinactingup is an excellent example of this. He would not need to grave rob to prove himself not a murderer, because we already know he cannot be. nopoint claimed to have resuscitated Wickedestjr before he said he had been attacked. There is no way nopoint could have known Wickedestjr had been attacked if he were LB's murderer. The same unfortunately does not apply to me.

I don't understand this. You aren't told that you resuscitated successfully?

Seacore already understood and explained what I meant, but in case further clarification is needed:

You are told when you successfully resuscitate someone. My logic however is about the order of the claims. nopoint claimed that he had saved Wickedestjr before Wickedestjr had said anything. There are only two ways nopoint could have known Wickedestjr had been attacked: either he had resuscitated him like he claimed, or he had attacked him. Either way, he could not have killed Lost Butterfly, and therefore he is not the murderer.

I claimed after nopoint and Wickedestjr, so I can't use a similar defense for myself. I of course know, but I cannot prove it to the rest of the town.

Regarding the grave rob plans, I am of course biased since plan B involves me. It is not the block aspect that bothers me, but taking two insanities now would ruin the chances of communing either me or nopoint. Even so, my vote is on plan A. I see the point of spreading insanities thinly, so all town players involved remain capable of communing. As for our secondary wagons, I'm most confident about Baby Spice, but kunkstar7 and El Goosuki are also fine. Andrius has been quiet, but he seems quite random by comparison.

[hitogoroshi]

I don't quite catch what you're saying here. What is the "slog" currently?

Slog is best defined here as: posts that no one will care about on future days. Aruging about graverobbing and such, that has no real bearing on who's scum and who's town and won't be worth re-read on future days.

I do intend to compile a final guide that everyone must follow, but I'd first like you and Seacore (and Feysal apparently) to post your thoughts in an easy to spot area tag so I'm absolutely sure that I'm not missing something from you while compiling.

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, I disagree about grave robbing, as that's a pretty important facet of the game, but it's not worth getting into a discussion about.

Here's the spark notes version of my investigator's reference:

Things to do tonight:

Launder (if bloody)
Commune
Investigate
Resuscitate (appropriate targets)
Ward (appropriate targets)

Things not to do tonight:

Stalk
Murder
Grave Rob (unless ordered to)
Perform the Ritual (cultists only!)

Acceptable Insanities:

Twitchy
Taboo
Solist
Obsession

Unacceptable Insanities:

Hallucination
Suicidal
Sadism
Denial
Mutilation
Distraction
Necrophilia
Paranoid

Grave Rob Plan:

RC = VP, Kunk
Fate = Benmage, El G
LB = Wicked, El G
MoI = Hito, Kunk

[Benmage]

Question...from phone, but still. Necrophilia would be a no no for me. That seems fine for tonight, but if I am to grave rob in the future it might be a needed pick....can't choose taboo without gear, correct?

[Benmage]

Mmmm never mind