Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Thor665]

Is that the new hip thing to do? I'm usually behind in fads.

[Mina]

I was about to do another one of my last minute vote swings again (I'm happy with how my Lrdwhyt and Elmo votes turned out), but since someone might hammer any minute.

VOTE: Lrdwhyt

I much prefer this. Baby Spice is hard to read, but 80% of the case on her that her arguments for her suspects are stupid. Um...

duh

. At least she seems to have her own theories about the game. Has no one noticed

Furcolow's

cognitive dissonance today (which looks much more calculated and less emotional than usual for him as town)? On a gut level, I don't think she's scum. Benmage, don't be an idiot, unvote, and help lynch someone you think has a chance of being guilty. This is the second time in a row you actually HARM your suspect's chance of getting lynched simply by throwing a tantrum. Not one person's read of Percy will change if Baby Spice flips town.

Seriously, guys. Look at how this wagon developed. Half the players on it don't even seem to suspect her. There is scum on it.

[Percy]

I have 1,500 exams still to mark, so I can't post for today.

BUT

I'm not happy lynching Baby without re-reading Lrdwhyt closely. Even with the Benmage deadline we still have a few days.

Unvote

This unvote is only to prevent a stupid hammer. I will almost certainly replace my vote after I've done my read. Give me 24 hours, would-be hammerers.

[Percy]

EBWOP: The post above may seem to imply that I see a connection between the BS and Lrd, but I don't. I just am not happy with some of my company on this wagon, and Lrd may be the superior lynch.

[Mina]

Seriously. Wasn't even Benmage's

fake

deadline not until next Monday? Why do some people get stupid "KILL KILL KILL LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" bloodlust every time someone gets within three votes of a lynch? Like, WTF was up with IAI threatening to put BS at L-1? And why did Furcolow, only a couple of posts after saying he preferred the Lrdwhyt wagon, change his vote to Baby Spice? I personally would like to take more time to analyze, and I hate that this is making me panic and try to rush out my thoughts when I don't feel ready.

Benmage, wouldn't it be even more informative if you waited for Percy to provide the Lrdwhyt case he promised? Then you could evaluate if he had a strategic reason for preferring one wagon to the other. If you just speedlynch Baby Spice, then he can go, "Oops. BS was lynched. Too bad, because the case on LW was sooooo good."

EBWOPreview: Haha, crossposted by Percy. That makes the above paragraph ironic.

[Zachrulez]

7th Vote Count of D2 P1

Baby Spice - 5 (Sotty7, Thor665, JasonT1981, Benmage, Furcolow)
Lrdwhyt - 4 (Locke Lamora, Elmo, Baby Spice, Mina)
Percy - 2 (I Am Innocent, KaleiÐoscøpe)
Elmo - 1 (Lrdwhyt)

Not Voting: (Percy)

If I made any mistakes please politely point them out and I will correct them.

Deadline for Day 2 is Monday, December 6 at 8am CST

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[Sotty7]

Considering that this lynch doesn't end the day I am not seeing the reason to panic. Unless of course, you are completely convinced that Baby is town.

Mina you mentioned earlier that you doubt that Baby and Lrd are buddies, why is that?

[Locke Lamora]

Hey, Baby Spice. Still waiting for your answers to these:

So we have both Benmage and Sotty starting wagons, on different people, and then jumping off when they reached L-1.

I have no idea what to make of that

, though it is hinky to then see Ben asking why the Percy wagon stalled.

Bolded for emphasis. What is this doing in here? You clearly do know what to make of it; you think either Sotty or Benmage has started a wagon on their buddy and hopped off it late on (which is quite the leap, by the way). Why did you say this and then follow it up with a vote for Sotty doing exactly that? Why are you scumhunting based on links with players who haven't flipped yet? Is there a reason you repeatedly give yourself either-or scenarios for scum without delving into much analysis? The following examples are apt: Jason or Nikanor must be scum, either Sotty or Mina is scum, now Sotty/Lrdwhyt or Benmage/Percy are scum.

Mina: one of the main things that I don't like about BS is not that her arguments are stupid, but that she keeps offering these 'either X or Y' is scum scenarios with very little analysis behind it. She's hedging her bets repeatedly; even when she goes after someone and calls them scum (like saying Sotty's hop off Lrd reeks of being Lrd's buddy or going hard after Jason's slip but saying if Jason's not scum, Nik is) she's pre-emptively selected an alternative target in case her first pick is town.

[I Am Innocent]

I have 1,500 exams still to mark, so I can't post for today.

BUT

I'm not happy lynching Baby without re-reading Lrdwhyt closely. Even with the Benmage deadline we still have a few days.

Unvote

This unvote is only to prevent a stupid hammer. I will almost certainly replace my vote after I've done my read. Give me 24 hours, would-be hammerers.

Big friggin surprise.

[I Am Innocent]

Thor, does your partner not want to be on a townie lynch or something? Or just on that townie lynch with his partner on it too?

Baby Spice, you had the chance to get the Percy wagon going. Sorry.

unvote
vote baby spice

[Benmage]

Benmage, what is going on?

You voted Lrdwhyt, someone

I

have been talking about

all day

, and were

busy interrogating him.

All day? All day….hrmmmm…
What all day interrogation. You list him as a scum suspect. Sure. But this is your only interaction with him ALL DAY, and it certainly doesn’t read as aggressive all day hounding/interrogation:

1. It could be a slip, or just poorly chosen words. Did she ever explain herself?
2. What's wrong with her Benmage case?
3. Yes, this looks like a thoughtless bandwagon vote, which is strange because she's accusing the two people on me.

Not a very compelling case, I'd say.

1. No, in fact she seems to have ignored it completely, unless I've missed her response.
2. The argument is that Benmage is arrogant scum, and that his initial proposal to use only one lynch was somehow motivated by scummy intentions. I just don't get it and don't see it. It feels extremely forced, like the anti-town nature of Benmage's initial plan is being spun for all its worth.
3. Glad you agree that it's strange. There's definitely enough weird reads coming out of this slot to earn my vote.

Now you're voting Baby Spice, who you think is town, just to show me up?

Yep.

Is this you wanting to win the pissing contest,

Pissing contest? What pissing contest. You and you're followers are the one who keep attempting to degrade my actions. You, calling me hannity, calling it a pissing contest, telling me to take my ball home…thor, worshipper “A” mimicking this…etc etc. It's an attempt to belittle my work, and its not working.

or are you actually interested in finding out who the scum are? Because killing someone in the hopes that it will strengthen your case, rather than rephrasing and evaluating your case on me from what is already there, is completely insane.

Really...I don't. I've laid out why you need to be lynched several times for 2 days now. If it's gonna take the hand of god to wake these people up, than I will chop that shit off and show them. I see this as a good move...not an "insane" one.

I still find it conspiracy-theory level logic to suggest you're scum - that you got it into your head that being the driving force behind a Dry lynch would confirm you as town, and you could then use that favour to line up the mislynches. It's a possibility, but not one I'm seriously considering.

So why do you keep wasting time talking about this. What you want to do, is instill some sort of doubt in people's minds about my alignment. I don't like it.

liking percy and mina, and i still believe ben is town, so even if i'm not liking his play recently, i am not going to vote him.

I am happy with both of the top wagons, though I would rather LW be the top wagon as opposed to BS. If BS is town, I'm going to be voting BM.

How can these two sentences co-exist? Talk about setting up to vote me. Just vote me. I already said, I am town voting someone who I believe to be town. If BS flips scum than I should be held under more scrutiny than if he flips town.

Percy and I are the two most experienced people here, true or false?

False. Hi.

Also, hammer time.

Damnit Sotty…that’s what I get for posting from my phone. Why have we never played together?

Not one person's read of Percy will change if Baby Spice flips town.

Seriously, guys. Look at how this wagon developed. Half the players on it don't even seem to suspect her. There is scum on it.

-I disagree.
- AtE!?!?! What….Whose on the wagon that doesn’t suspect BS other than myself, and a willingness to join from IAI, who?

I have 1,500 exams still to mark, so I can't post for today.

BUT

I'm not happy lynching Baby without re-reading Lrdwhyt closely. Even with the Benmage deadline we still have a few days.

Unvote

This unvote is only to prevent a stupid hammer. I will almost certainly replace my vote after I've done my read. Give me 24 hours, would-be hammerers.

^^^^^Wow scummiest post of this century. This is Lynch 1. Even if it goes through quickly, why/how would it affect your read on Lrd?? You’ve been pushing BS for 2 days. You should be jumping up and down and ecstatic about your 2 day lead suspect being lynched for whatever reason that have convinced others.

If people told them the tiny voices in their head were what convinced them to finally vote you. I’d go fuck ya lets do this.

That’s why I am town, and you are scum.

EBWOP: The post above may seem to imply that I see a connection between the BS and Lrd, but I don't.

I just am not happy with some of my company on this wagon, and Lrd may be the superior lynch.

Does that mean BS is suddenly a bad lynch?
Who don't you like on the wagon?

[Baby Spice]

LL. I didn't pick it up at first with Benmage, but with Sotty it stood out.

Basically, I keep seeing what appear to be faked arguements between people, mostly what appear to be faked on one side, and to me a faked arguement means scum. Ergo, if I see a faked arguement then it means that one of the two participating is quite possibly scum.

Spotting two of them like that at the same time made me wonder if I was judging things properly. I really didn't know what it meant because I was seeing too many of those wagon starters jumping things. Of course, being wrong on when Ben's little spat happened changed that.

[Mina]

My God. I want to strangle a few people right now.

Not one person's read of Percy will change if Baby Spice flips town.

Seriously, guys. Look at how this wagon developed. Half the players on it don't even seem to suspect her. There is scum on it.

-I disagree.

Okay, Benmage. Name one player who currently trusts Percy and who you believe will suddenly stop if Baby Spice flips town. Explain why this will happen. I'll give you a hint: I won't be one of them.

- AtE!?!?! What….Whose on the wagon that doesn’t suspect BS other than myself, and a willingness to join from IAI, who?

What are you talking about, this isn't a "scum-led" lynch? You're the one who thinks Percy is obvobvobvobvobvscum (even though you won't bet your avatar on it), and that anyone who quibbles with a single point against him is a gullible VI. And I think you were suspicious of Thor as well, although you seem to have dropped that in favour of calling him stupid. Both of them have been pushing Baby Spice all day.

And I take it you haven't noticed this from Furcolow:

I am happy with both of the top wagons, though I would rather LW be the top wagon as opposed to BS.

unvote
VOTE: baby spice

how can you move baby spice to L-1 when I did

You think this is the thought process of a townie? Hell, right now, I'd much rather use our two lynches on Furcolow and Lrdwhyt than Baby Spice and Lrdwhyt based on those posts alone.

Seriously. Right now, there are two competing wagons: Baby Spice and Lrdwhyt. You actually made a great attack on Lrdwhyt on Sunday that reminded me that you can play well when you don't let your ego get in the way.

And yet players who DON'T SUSPECT BABY SPICE are the fucking swing votes away from Lrdwhyt, onto Baby Spice, BECAUSE you're trying to prove a point by DELIBERATELY FORCING THE TOWN TO MISLYNCH. You think there's a good chance that Lrdwhyt might flip scum. You're

confident

that Baby Spice will flip town. But you are playing against your win condition.

But also, don't you

dare

accuse me of appealing to emotion.

Who's the one who jumped off the viable counterwagon on his top suspect to the wagon on a strong town read and voted "no-lynch" just for theatrical effect, instead of explaining why he was so confident that Red was town? Who's the one who repeatedly calls people stupid and inexperienced if they disagree with them, and appeals to his authority as an experienced player?

You want to know what the irony is?

I was actually totally open to Percy being scum (although I think his unvote of Baby Spice looks townish). Seriously, on Day One, I got dead-townie-walking vibes from him, but early today, he started looking more like a player of null alignment who's just irritated he's being attacked for the wrong reasons. After glancing at

ACoK

, I remembered that he can look very townish as scum. And I didn't like how little pressure he put on me when he appeared to be unsure of my alignment--instead, I felt as though he was buddying up to me, perhaps because he didn't want to antagonize one of his defenders.

I've even had a list of questions I've meant to call Percy on days ago, saved in a draft. Some of the stuff I wanted to call him on (his being so confident in his Baby Spice scum read when on Day One he seemed to only vote her by process of elimination, his completely dropping Furcolow) overlaps with what you've noticed.

But first, I have to untangle my own thoughts on Percy from the bad arguments and blind sheeping that I associate with the case on him. Because if I put even the slightest bit of pressure on him, I'm supporting something I disagree with. Regardless of whether or not he's scum, I agree with Thor that the reasons people have used to wagon him this game are completely unconvincing.

Congratulations. Your approach to the Percy wagon has been so odious, so off-putting, so poorly reasoned that not only are you failing to convince anyone, but you're making me emotionally invested in Percy being town. If Percy ends up scum, there will be no justice in the universe. Because it means you were right about something, even if it was by pure dumb luck.

Please stop quoting every sentence of Percy's posts and trying to spin it in the scummiest possible light (for example, his unvote of Baby Spice, which actually makes more sense from town falling behind). It's only counter-productive. If Percy is scum, you shouldn't need to misrepresent and twist the facts. The evidence should speak for itself.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that you're attacking him more because you're afraid to let your case from early D1 go. Why don't you and I Am Innocent both try a thought experiment? Maybe close your eyes, pretend for a minute you've just received a PM from Zachrulez saying that Percy is an innocent child. Now reread Percy's ISO, knowing that he's confirmed town. See if you still suspect him, or if evidence for his innocence pops up. Even if you don't change your opinion, at least you'll know you're being objective.

Oh, and it's ironic that you think Percy is king of the VIs. You should look at the company you're keeping on the Percy wagon, and the reasons they've used to justify their votes. The approach you're using--bullying people, calling them stupid if they disagree with you, claiming to be the best and most experienced scumhunter to appeal to your authority instead of relying on your arguments, pulling antitown stunts like voting no-lynch or for a town read--only works on scum, the easily led, and new players who believe in your hype and don't have self-confidence. You're turning off the more experienced players.

==========================================================

I Am Innocent, it is taking me a lot of willpower not to be very mean right now. You are very lucky that I'm not Benmage.

Why you are voting for Baby Spice and not Lrdwhyt? Is it just because Benmage is voting for Baby Spice?

[Mina]

@Sotty: My reason was that Baby Spice put the third vote on LrdWhyt I

suppose

I could concoct a conspiracy theory in which she was bussing LrdWhyt and preemptively setting one of us up as his buddy, but it just looked really weird and convoluted for a scum gambit. I wouldn't die of shock if she flipped guilty, and I kind of see Locke's point that setting contingencies based on the lynch is scummy (it's so much fun as scum to link your partner to every group suspect in existence). But meh. I guess I'm not really feeling it. She doesn't seem to be opportunistically tailoring her opinions to suit the masses.

Why am I panicking?

1) Force of habit. I always second-guess myself at crunch time.
2) People should not be using lack of time and desire to get making compromise votes on Baby Spice instead of pushing a player they suspect more when we have time to reach a consensus. I mean...seriously, you have no problem whatsoever with Benmage's, IAI, and Furcolow's votes?
3) Furc's recent posts have looked so opportunistic and conscious of popular opinion that I'd rather that Furcolow and Lrdwhyt were the lynches. So I'd prefer we lynch LW right now, and then we move onto the next phase, in which I push Furc over Baby Spice.

Sotty, question. Why do you find Baby Spice's cognitive dissonance scummy and not Furcolow's? Also, do you think that Furcolow's play is similar to his town or scum meta?

4) I'd rather everyone took a stand before the lynch.

Benmage. I am Innocent. You're only voting Baby Spice to prove that Percy is pushing a mislynch, right? Why don't you see my point that you'll incriminate Percy

even more

if you force him to take a stand on Baby Spice vs. Lrdwhyt? So don't rush the day.

Your turn. What's the rush for someone to hammer right away, Sotty? Why don't you want more discussion?

[Thor665]

Thor, does your partner not want to be on a townie lynch or something? Or just on that townie lynch with his partner on it too?

Thor is scum because he's voting for Baby Spice
Percy is scum because he's not voting for Baby Spice.
They are scum together because they don't want to be on the same wagon as each other despite being that way for a lengthy stretch of the day thus far.
I Am Brilliant as well as Innocent.

Dude, you make my head hurt and this type of inane double standard does not fill me with ringing visions of your towniness.

^^^^^Wow scummiest post of this century. This is Lynch 1. Even if it goes through quickly, why/how would it affect your read on Lrd?? You’ve been pushing BS for 2 days. You should be jumping up and down and ecstatic about your 2 day lead suspect being lynched for whatever reason that have convinced others.

I'll preface this by saying that a lot of Mina's last post to Benmage resonated with me.

That said...I actually think Benmage has a decent point here. Earlier in the same post Percy was talking about how long and solid he has been on BS and now that the wagon is finally getting some good steam under it he wants to unvote to re-read LrdWhyt? Something is a little odd with this.

@Percy - I second the question about you being uncomfortable with your wagon mates, who and why?
Also, why did it take L-1 to make you uneasy and really wanting to do the re-read, what about the other day when he was the top competing wagon with LrdWhyt - why didn't that get you more focused on doing a re-read?

[Thor665]

Why am I panicking?

Meta?

Furc's recent posts have looked so opportunistic and conscious of popular opinion that I'd rather that Furcolow and Lrdwhyt were the lynches.

As you're advancing this concept have you gone back to look at furc's interactions with Dry-fit?

[Furcolow]

unvote

[Furcolow]

VOTE: mina

[Benmage]

Mina, why don't you see if you can bullet my case on Percy and maybe you'll see the magnitude of his scumminess.

Also stop talking about all the things you'd like to do. Woes you. Just go ahead. Read Percy in iso. Ask him your questions. Read me in iso. Read throuh the belittling, look at the arguments.

I ask this again, to you and Thor. How many mislynches will you allow?

[Benmage]

All the effort you keep putting forth complaining could be used much more advantageously.

I stopped caring for furc awhile ago.

We are hunting two scum in a sea of townies. His antics can be looked on later.

[Benmage]

Oh and Mina, you didn't accept my counter proposal for the avatar.....soooo.

[Thor665]

FURCOLOW, NOT EVERYONE WHO MENTIONS YOU AS A SUSPECT IS SCUM!

Argggh, I'm in capsrage and invariably the juxtaposition of that to Fate's playstyle will get Benmage voting me! Abort, abort!

[Thor665]

I ask this again, to you and Thor. How many mislynches will you allow?

How many will you vote in support of?

[Benmage]

I ask this again, to you and Thor. How many mislynches will you allow?

How many will you vote in support of?

Deflection 1-0-1. I'd vote in support as many as it takes all the way up yo lylo. I doubt I'd live that long.....and (this is a stretch) but hopefully people here would wake up by than.

[Thor665]

It's not deflection, it's pointing out how silly the question is to begin with.

How many mislynches will I "allow"? First off, I'm not sure that I'm the sole force that dictates who is lynched and whether that lynch is a mislynch or a scum lynch.

Second, the basis of your argument for how we're mislynching is based on a belief that Percy is scum and that BS is town all while you vote BS which is just three kinds of silly.

Therefore, at the very least, if this is a mislynch and it's bad that I'm allowing it then it must be equally culpable on your part for supporting/allowing it as well. I was curious to see how you'd respond to the question which is why I basically turned it around and fed it back at you, and your basic answer was 'deflection' and 'as many as it takes' so how about we consider those my answers as well.