The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[ThAdmiral]

@ slaxx: what does ijs mean?

I agree with the apc wagon. Have been on him since the start of the day.

[Slaxx]

ijs=im just saying

suggesting if there are two lynch candidates, we have another 'lynch' tonight

[Slaxx]

Also, someone explain to me why voting on the vig target is bad, and how it is different than voting on the lynch target. You're killing both, and mafia is influencing both. Never got that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mafia doctor and a SK is borderline bastard modding since it goes against what the standard ideal play of a mafia doctor is. It is mod WIFOM, but its probably true.

This may need to eventually go to a Mafia Discussion thread as opposed to this game but I still don’t see your point. Standard ideal play is a pipe dream. A player who get as Mafia Doc PM knows that some non-Mafia force has an ability to kill the Mafia and thus makes their best judgement about how to use their power based on how the game goes. Saying it is ideal to only protect the scummiest Mafia players flies in the face of the ever-changing environment of a game.

In summary I would not consider a Mafia Doctor with a Serial Killer any more bastard than a Miller with no Cop. Others obviously disagree.

I’ll be making my personal assessment as to whether I think Admiral is Town or SK based mainly what other Town and Scum PRs pop up as the game continues (or at least for as long as I live) and his targets.

Is anyone else unnerved by Thad's lists and his casual responses to my questions?

I can’t say as I am. Quite honestly I’d rather detailed lists, especially lists with small Shoot pools, not be a normal course of Admiral’s postings. Keeping the remaining scum in the dark about who he suspects is the best course of action.

Once again, if he specifically killed someone generally considered Town and they flipped Town (take Furry as an example since you seem very focused on him not being on the Shootable list) or a bad target he’ll be held accountable via a rope in the short term IMO.

Wut. I was saying he has been extremely passive and quite and I feel like scum would have hopped all over his wagon. Its STILL hard to get going and a lot of people have posted.

I agree that there does seem to be some sort of resistance to building a strong wagon on APC that flies in the face of my read. I was mostly pointing out that the tone of your statement looked like similar scum-driven statements I have seen in the past.

Also, someone explain to me why voting on the vig target is bad, and how it is different than voting on the lynch target. You're killing both, and mafia is influencing both. Never got that.

The main point is that by removing the general voting for vig targets you remove the scum’s ability to influence Admiral’s selection as Admiral can’t be scum unless he is part of some completely unexpected other Mafia faction we haven’t seen signs of. Thus you only have regular voting touched by Scum influence.

3. Hells no. Weak flavour inconsistent with SK's narrative given only after extensive stalling by a hydra = slamdunk case.

So if SquareOb hadn’t been a less than stellar player and had managed to actually come up with a reasonable flavor to back the fake-claim it wouldn’t have been a slam-dunk?

This argument basically ignores all the play I (and others) found scummy which pushed Square to the point of claiming and then frames the slow / bad flavor claim as the main factor for Square’s scumminess. That I disagree with.

Personally I see your late arrival on the wagon as very possible bussing based on a fact I see as rather unimportant to the case as a whole against Square.

That post wasn't wholly serious, just fyi, because, as you say, hindsight is 20/20. But Feysal did only make his scummiest post late Day 1 and frankly, the case against him is just unconvincing without it. It's also not unreasonable to expect ThAd to put more effort into picking a good target than the rest of us. He could've noticed Feysal's last post, ISOed him and killed him.

Lots of things could have happened. This argument is predicated on hindsight factors that are impossible to prove. Would you have disagreed that dana wasn’t a good shot going to Night 1 based on his play? In hindsight we all know he was a bad shot but looking at his play I can’t say I think Admiral’s shot was unjustified.

P.S. People who think Furry is town are probably underestimating Furry.

I can’t say as I see a laid out case from you as to why Furry is scum. Without that this looks like a little mud-slinging that is tip-toeing around a ‘Too Townie’ argument.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD - Can we get a vote-count please? I'd happily accept one without tons of flavor if that makes your life easier!

I already put one on the previous page, but if you really lust for a vote count, I'll get one up tomorrow.

[ThAdmiral]

Also, someone explain to me why voting on the vig target is bad, and how it is different than voting on the lynch target. You're killing both, and mafia is influencing both. Never got that.

I agree. Especially when the group has been deciding as well as it has been so far.

[ThAdmiral]

Which means there's also less mafia influence around.

[Furry]

Also, someone explain to me why voting on the vig target is bad, and how it is different than voting on the lynch target. You're killing both, and mafia is influencing both. Never got that.

I agree. Especially when the group has been deciding as well as it has been so far.

Using the "its a vig not SK" theory - If the vig shoots by themselves, it is a shot 100% guided by town. If people discuss and vote on it, there is a 100% chance that scum has some bearing over where it goes, even if its not much scum influenced the shot directly.

[AlmasterGM]

I am sticking with Twomz. I don't like the justifications for the APC wagon enough to move to it. I also don't like two of the people on it (Slaxx and ThAdmiral). Furry has good posts but I don't like all the wagon shifting nonsense. Twomz hasn't actually done anything to redeem himself other than claim VT (hurrrrrrrrr) and be supposedly out shadowed by these other people (APC who I don't want to vote for durrrrr).

There is also the benefit that if Twomz flips scum this game will basically be on cruise control post VC analysis, whereas the apc flip does pretty much nil.

[AlmasterGM]

ALSO regarding all the theory discussion, SK said in the queue thread that this was a mostly normal setup with a few twists thrown in. JUST FOR REFERENCE.

[Twomz]

Just a reminder that i'm currently L-3, APC is L-4 and we have a deadline coming on Wednesday.

[Slaxx]

^-making me doubt myself

[AlmasterGM]

THAT'S RIGHT SLAXX YOU CAN STILL BUS YOUR BUDDY. YOU WON'T GET ANY TOWN CRED AT THIS POINT, BUT YOU WILL AT LEAST NOT BE AUTO-SCUM TOMORROW.

[Slaxx]

So confident.

[apathyplusCUPCAKES]

Hi guys, back from the holidays. Too tired to make a post right now.

I hope you're alright though, SK.

[ThAdmiral]

I am sticking with Twomz. I don't like the justifications for the APC wagon enough to move to it. I also don't like two of the people on it (Slaxx and ThAdmiral).

But no matter what I am not a member of the mafia, so that doesn't make much sense.

There is also the benefit that if Twomz flips scum this game will basically be on cruise control post VC analysis, whereas the apc flip does pretty much nil.

Bad reason to vote someone - i.e. the hope that they turn up scum so their is more information.
In another site I play at "information lynches" are frowned upon for good reason.

[LimMePls]

First time I said it as a statement in a little case and it never was responded to. I wanted to make sure that was right so I brought it up again, apparently yes it was.

Deadline is Wednesday, lets go people.

Twomz is probably town here. APC needs the lynch.

I just can't shake the feeling that APC is a mislynch waiting to happen. It also seems like a lazy choice. Why is Twomz "probably town here"? Feel free to point me to another post if you've already answered this.

So what made you post the accusations in #703 (most notably the 2nd and 3rd quote)?

In those quotes you appear to stall a vote multiple times based on flavor. I went around the bush a few times before flat out getting confirmation that it was all based on flavor. Speaking of flavor, what is you thoughts on Twomz claim?

I second this awesome question.

There is one religiously driven warrior in every crowd.

Why is Slaxx answering it for him?

I can’t say as I am. Quite honestly I’d rather detailed lists, especially lists with small Shoot pools, not be a normal course of Admiral’s postings. Keeping the remaining scum in the dark about who he suspects is the best course of action.

Once again, if he specifically killed someone generally considered Town and they flipped Town (take Furry as an example since you seem very focused on him not being on the Shootable list) or a bad target he’ll be held accountable via a rope in the short term IMO.

I just used Furry as an example because I think most of us consider him town. And ThAd's "well, you can consider him on the no shoot" response just seemed strange to me. If I can consider him on that list, why isn't he on that list? I dunno, call me crazy, but I just don't like it. I'm also annoyed that you are the only player to respond to this.

So if SquareOb hadn’t been a less than stellar player and had managed to actually come up with a reasonable flavor to back the fake-claim it wouldn’t have been a slam-dunk?

This argument basically ignores all the play I (and others) found scummy which pushed Square to the point of claiming and then frames the slow / bad flavor claim as the main factor for Square’s scumminess. That I disagree with.

Personally I see your late arrival on the wagon as very possible bussing based on a fact I see as rather unimportant to the case as a whole against Square.

QFT.

I agree. Especially when the group has been deciding as well as it has been so far.

You actually want us voting on your shot?

Twomz is definitely the lynch. You people need to get on board.

Time for a scum-o-meter:

TOWN
MOI
Furry
AGM
Nero Cain
ThAdmiral
HackerHuck
Thor
APC
CES
Slaxx
Twomz
SCUM

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

In those quotes you appear to stall a vote multiple times based on flavor. I went around the bush a few times before flat out getting confirmation that it was all based on flavor. Speaking of flavor, what is you thoughts on Twomz claim?

You could've just asked; ignoring it while making a case against me that significantly contributed to the wagon on me is at the very least irresponsible. Twomz' flavour claim strikes me as a slight town tell, but that mostly lies in the "I didn't think I'd be a VT"-line. Nice deflection here.

@ slaxx: what does ijs mean?

Ice. Don't trust Slaxx if he says differently.

So if SquareOb hadn’t been a less than stellar player and had managed to actually come up with a reasonable flavor to back the fake-claim it wouldn’t have been a slam-dunk?

This argument basically ignores all the play I (and others) found scummy which pushed Square to the point of claiming and then frames the slow / bad flavor claim as the main factor for Square’s scumminess. That I disagree with.

I think you're overrating your own case majorly here. Day 1 lynches rarely have as good a justification as SO's flavourfail and this was no exception.

Lots of things could have happened. This argument is predicated on hindsight factors that are impossible to prove. Would you have disagreed that dana wasn’t a good shot going to Night 1 based on his play? In hindsight we all know he was a bad shot but looking at his play I can’t say I think Admiral’s shot was unjustified.

I personally thought dana's play was pretty much par for the course, but that's not particularly relevant here.

I can’t say as I see a laid out case from you as to why Furry is scum. Without that this looks like a little mud-slinging that is tip-toeing around a ‘Too Townie’ argument.

It's not a Too Townie-argument in the slightest - Furry is just good at appearing town as scum (as I'm familiar with - I failed to shoot Furryscum in the final Night of the original Liten game and only pulled out a draw because Furry misjudged me too), so people should hold him to a higher standard.

Using the "its a vig not SK" theory - If the vig shoots by themselves, it is a shot 100% guided by town. If people discuss and vote on it, there is a 100% chance that scum has some bearing over where it goes, even if its not much scum influenced the shot directly.

If we knew ThAd was a vig, this would indeed be an acceptable line of reasoning. This is relevant how?

I'll switch my vote on Wednesday if necessary.

[AlmasterGM]

Bad reason to vote someone - i.e. the hope that they turn up scum so their is more information.
In another site I play at "information lynches" are frowned upon for good reason.

If you have two relatively close choices and one of them leads to data goldmine and the other leads to nowhere, you choose the former of course.

Not that APC is really even that close to Twomz in my mind, though. LMP's scum-o-meter is basically spot on, except for I am a lot more skeptical of Furry now than he is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note regarding Deadline

– I’ll be around Tuesday Night and Wednesday morning if my vote needs to move to APC to get a lynch done at deadline. I think Twomz is the better choice but APC has done nothing to dissuade my thoughts regarding the case I made for him and continues to not answer outstanding questions.

Lurking to deadline is scum-tastic.

I agree. Especially when the group has been deciding as well as it has been so far.

Um, what?

You are characterizing that the Untrod shot was a group decision?

And you think the ‘group’ decisiosn have been going well given we are 0 for 3 on shots from you so far?

ALSO regarding all the theory discussion, SK said in the queue thread that this was a mostly normal setup with a few twists thrown in. JUST FOR REFERENCE.

This is true but if you are posting this relation to the SK / Vig debate with a Mafia Doctor I don’t see that it is very meaningful. I don’t have the Normal approved list on Bookmark but would not guess a Mafia Doctor isn’t on there.

^-making me doubt myself

So you are saying that a Null tell is making you doubt your read on Twomz? Because being all helpful regarding the deadline when faced with a lurker alternate wagon hardly qualifies as something other than Null.

I dunno, call me crazy, but I just don't like it. I'm also annoyed that you are the only player to respond to this.

Up until his latest post I would have gone with you were being overly suspicious. The last post just screams survivalist mentality. If Admiral is Town (not Admiral is simply not Mafia) then he shouldn’t be so eager to hand over the reigns, as it were, to his targets.

I think you're overrating your own case majorly here. Day 1 lynches rarely have as good a justification as SO's flavourfail and this was no exception.

I think you are clearly underselling Square’s Day 1 scumminess for self-serving reasons.

You didn’t answer the question – Had that claim been made with serviceable flavor would you have considered it a slam-dunk?

It's not a Too Townie-argument in the slightest - Furry is just good at appearing town as scum (as I'm familiar with - I failed to shoot Furryscum in the final Night of the original Liten game and only pulled out a draw because Furry misjudged me too),

so people should hold him to a higher standard.

I didn’t say it was a Too Townie argument – I said it was tip-toeing around that argument.

I absolutely HATE the bolded portion. Hate it. Different standards for play simply furthers the site meta that lazy or bad players shouldn’t bother to improve their play.

Your past experience not-withstanding – aside from the small point you keep going back to regarding Furry’s interaction with you regarding Sqauare’s flavor claim do you have anything that leads you to actually think Furry might be scum?

And shouldn’t Furry be much more suspicious of you based on your own logic and the first Liten game?

[AlmasterGM]

[quote="MOI"]So you are saying that a Null tell is making you doubt your read on Twomz? Because being all helpful regarding the deadline when faced with a lurker alternate wagon hardly qualifies as something other than Null.[quote]
Good posting. Slaxx needs a bullet. HEAR THAT ADMIRAL? SOMEBODY NEEDS A BULLET.

[AlmasterGM]

EBWOP:

So you are saying that a Null tell is making you doubt your read on Twomz? Because being all helpful regarding the deadline when faced with a lurker alternate wagon hardly qualifies as something other than Null.

Good posting. Slaxx needs a bullet. HEAR THAT ADMIRAL? SOMEBODY NEEDS A BULLET.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You didn’t answer the question – Had that claim been made with serviceable flavor would you have considered it a slam-dunk?

No.

I didn’t say it was a Too Townie argument – I said it was tip-toeing around that argument.

I understand your comment as saying it was somehow close to or vaguely related to Too Townie argument and so I said it wasn't anything like Too Townie. If you meant something else, please elaborate.

I absolutely HATE the bolded portion. Hate it. Different standards for play simply furthers the site meta that lazy or bad players shouldn’t bother to improve their play.

I play to win this game, not to improve this site meta. Without different standards you'll never catch players like Furry or Yosarian2 when they're scum and that's a near sure-fire way to lose. I do believe that ceteris paribus it's better to lynch a bad player by the bye but I refuse to let out-of-game considerations affect my play.

Your past experience not-withstanding – aside from the small point you keep going back to regarding Furry’s interaction with you regarding Sqauare’s flavor claim do you have anything that leads you to actually think Furry might be scum?

Gut, his pro-ThAdindependenceness, who he has chosen to go after today and his backing off the SOwagon.

And shouldn’t Furry be much more suspicious of you based on your own logic and the first Liten game?

If that was all Furry had to go on, yes, I suppose. But I remember being rather satisfied with how I played that game as scum in terms of fooling the town; people tend to be suspicious of me most games.

[Slaxx]

I really could care less if I was shot. Call it a gambit, or call it apathy. I don't care. In fact, if we lynch Twomz and he flips scum, I would be the best shot, and I would encourage ThAd to do it.

Also, I thought Twomz last post was scummy. He just came in, started the BW, then left. No fighting back, no pushing on anyone else. He's done it before (this game) but I get that way as town too so I didn't think much of it. But even I would be crunching it now. Idk, I am still more for sure about APC. I will go after Twomz, but not before APC.

Tell me how APC>Twomz, tbh. APC has way less content, but is still doing minimumposting to get by, has pretty much followed the popular opinion, and there is still that awesome scumslip Furry pointed out. I could be fingerpointing at all the people not on APCs wagon, but alas, I am not. I want to convince, not threaten. See where Ima goin with this shiz.

[Slaxx]

-Stated the BWs.