Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day


Forum rules
User avatar
Andrius
Andrius
The Baker
User avatar
User avatar
Andrius
The Baker
The Baker
Posts: 12806
Joined: February 16, 2010

Post Post #3100 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:32 pm

Post by Andrius »

Seacore wrote:Andrius, there's a bunch wrong with what you've said, but It's already been mentioned.

xvart cannot confirm himself as non-cult because scum can fuck it up, and should because it'll lead to a quick mislynch.

But finally, to a huge concern I have.
How does obsession work? Does it just mean you have to commune two nights in a row, or do you have to commune for forever? Because if the latter is true, you're going to be pretty damn insane by the end of it.
I hope its just the next night.
If it isn't, I'll just pick up Taboo tomorrow night and be done with Obsession. But then I'll have to keep Obsession in mind when I hunt for more equipment...

I'm confused, so I'll try to work through this:
xvart is scumxvart cannot Murder. If Cult kills Furcolow, he'll flip "something something eaten by a tentacle monster"
We'll know it was them

xvart is townxvart does murder.
Cult also kills Furcolow for creds.
Murder takes prescedence in NAR, so xvart is confirmed.

xvart is town plus a res on furcxvart and cult kill furcolow.
furcolow is res'd.
furcolow dies and flips "tentacle monster yadda yadda"


I'm just confused, because I was convinced he could be confirmed.
"This is the true face of a man who plays paladin."
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3101 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:33 pm

Post by Seacore »

Iec, I don't really see how you can have a problem with a bunch of us having a problem with Furc.
Do you really think he won't be a liability from Day 6 onwards?

At some stage, assuming we actually get some runs on the board, I will stalk and murder him, or at the very least, give somebody else permission to do so. This will be a protown act in my opinion.
However, that time is not now.
User avatar
SpyreX
SpyreX
POWERFUL WIZARD
User avatar
User avatar
SpyreX
POWERFUL WIZARD
POWERFUL WIZARD
Posts: 18596
Joined: April 24, 2008

Post Post #3102 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:37 pm

Post by SpyreX »

At some stage, assuming we actually get some runs on the board, I will stalk and murder him, or at the very least, give somebody else permission to do so. This will be a protown act in my opinion.
However, that time is not now.
A good and wise man.

Although, PERSONALLY, if one of the wonder twins had to go first I'd go Ben but.
Show
I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia. :P

Town: (49-47-1)
Scum: (23-11)
Third Party: (2-0)
Proud member of BaM
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3103 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:37 pm

Post by Seacore »

Andrius, the three examples you've given show exactly how he cannot be confirmed.

Because we cannot tell the difference between the 1st one and the 3rd one.

So if xvart is a cultist and we call his bluff, he can have Furc ritualled and then have one of his scum buddies step forward and say "I rezzed him"
Alternative, scum can easily set it up so that it looks like that happened.
It gets more confusing because Furc, having a rez kit, can negate all rezes targetted on him. So that's the only way to actually confirm xvart, but Furc isn't reliable so lets dismiss that.
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3104 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:39 pm

Post by Seacore »

SpyreX wrote: A good and wise man.

Although, PERSONALLY, if one of the wonder twins had to go first I'd go Ben but.
I disagree. I dislike Benmage's playing style. I think he's made a lot of mistakes and he thinks that he's an awesome scum hunter when he's just a competent one.

Furc is a loose cannon that can destroy this game.

As an example, I managed to convince Benmage that, in the long term, a policy of lynching anybody who doesn't follow the graverob plan must be enforced.

Nobody has been able to convince Furc of anything except that shaking keys in your hand is both jingly and shiny.

One of these players is more of a liability than the other.
User avatar
Iecerint
Iecerint
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Iecerint
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 15766
Joined: May 13, 2009
Location: San Francisco

Post Post #3105 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:39 pm

Post by Iecerint »

Oh. Well. I do see all those posts on 124 now.

Were you just pretending before, or did I confuse you with someone else?

EDIT: The evidence that Furco will be a liability from D6 onwards is NOT something we should worry about addressing so long as there are a) players that are ALREADY a liability like ElG and xvart and b) considerably less likely to be town.

Also, to counter some of the rhetoric about how Furco lost SA2 for the town -- what really lost SA2 at the end of the day is that town lynched Furco.

Really, Furco has been very well-behaved all game. I see no reason to policy kill him in any fashion. And I think he IS capable of thinking against his preconceptions as town, at least privately, if that's what worries you. He did it when we were Neighbors and he thought I was scum in Holy Orders, for example. He just has a certain front he wants to present publicly, and that interferes with the kind of rhetoric he lets himself use sometimes.
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3106 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:43 pm

Post by Seacore »

Icerint, fair enough.
No, you don't have me confused, I did say it and I was serious at the time, but hito and others convinced me that I was wrong, plus I thougth through the maths a little and realised that it's just a clusterfuck of WIFOM so lets not go with it.

Furco got lynched because he acted against town directions, so it's chicken or egg there. But fine, I'm not looking to discuss what to do N5 at this point, in fact, I've been agreeing with you, Furco shouldn't die now, we need him if only for the numbers.

SO CAN WE PLEASE HAVE MORE GRAVE ROB DISCUSSION PLEASE!
User avatar
Andrius
Andrius
The Baker
User avatar
User avatar
Andrius
The Baker
The Baker
Posts: 12806
Joined: February 16, 2010

Post Post #3107 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:44 pm

Post by Andrius »

Seacore wrote:Andrius, the three examples you've given show exactly how he cannot be confirmed.

Because we cannot tell the difference between the 1st one and the 3rd one.
OOOOOOOOOOOH
:oops:
Never mind. /fail

Furcolow goes before Benmage, as Benmage has to be here longer to win as murderer.
Seacore wrote:
Furc is a loose cannon that can destroy this game.
Furc can destroy this game.
destroy this game
[/b]
HRMMMMM

predit: grave rob... I'm down with the current plan. Though I take it we're not going to worry about BS/kunk from yesterday?
"This is the true face of a man who plays paladin."
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3108 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:52 pm

Post by Seacore »

Well I'm still worried about BS/Kunk, but a policy of going after current scum reads is possibly better, it means if we're wrong we haven't stacked all of the insanities on a single person.

But we should refer to Baby Spice and Kunk more often, because Baby Spice in particular, but also Kunk, were read as very scummy yesterday, and it's important that we don't forget about Baby Spice and Kunk
User avatar
Iecerint
Iecerint
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Iecerint
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 15766
Joined: May 13, 2009
Location: San Francisco

Post Post #3109 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:57 pm

Post by Iecerint »

I agree that it's a chicken/egg problem there. However, I think some players have been, ye know, FOCUSING inordinately on the chicken, ye know? That's all I meant.

I agree with the rest, I guess, except that GraveRob should be an 11th hour thing so we don't create lame OMG THE SUSPICIONS CHANGED DURING THE DAY drama, unless you think we're already at said 11th hour.
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3110 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:00 pm

Post by Seacore »

I think we're already at 11:55 in fact.

To do list
1) Get the graverob plan organised
2) Hito posts his thread and we make several posts underneath it in large bold
3) We tell xvart again not to murder furc
4) We lynch el goosuki.

If this all happened in the next 5 minutes, I'd be cool with it.

I'm only engaging with Furc because I'm waiting for all the other things to happen, and because Furc was trying to provide poorer alternatives.
User avatar
Wraith
Wraith
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Wraith
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 4168
Joined: May 29, 2010
Location: Central Party-Ruining Committee

Post Post #3111 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:09 pm

Post by Wraith »

Okay, I'm willing to lynch either El G or xvart. I believe I've stated before that they're both my top suspects, and with xvart's stupidity about murdering Furc he's now jumped to "lynchable today" in my eyes.

Furcolow needs to not rez anyone tonight. Warding would be the best thing for him to do (I've said it, but it's up to him whether he decides to be smart or be dead)

Under no circumstances should the town condone a murder of a confirmed townie.

I vote we lynch El G today, lynch xvart tomorrow (provided N3 doesn't drastically change things)
Show
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3112 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:12 pm

Post by Seacore »

Under no circumstances should the town condone a murder of a confirmed townie.
I disagree with this. But I agree with it in terms of todays actions, so we can discuss it later when it's relevant.
User avatar
Andrius
Andrius
The Baker
User avatar
User avatar
Andrius
The Baker
The Baker
Posts: 12806
Joined: February 16, 2010

Post Post #3113 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:13 pm

Post by Andrius »

Under no circumstances should the town condone a murder of a confirmed townie.
We don't have confirmed townies.
We have confirmed townies
*
.
"This is the true face of a man who plays paladin."
User avatar
Iecerint
Iecerint
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Iecerint
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 15766
Joined: May 13, 2009
Location: San Francisco

Post Post #3114 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:32 pm

Post by Iecerint »

Town probably shouldn't condone the murder of confirmed townies*, either.
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3115 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:35 pm

Post by Seacore »

Lets discuss this when it's relevant, rather than clutter up what should be a grave rob discussion.
User avatar
Iecerint
Iecerint
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Iecerint
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 15766
Joined: May 13, 2009
Location: San Francisco

Post Post #3116 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:40 pm

Post by Iecerint »

It's certainly relevant that Andy would make that kind of statement. He's arguing technicalities that do nothing to undermine the assertion the player made.
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3117 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:43 pm

Post by Seacore »

No, Andy's point is that he believes Furc is attempting the murderer win condition and thus needs to be killed by town.
This is an important distinction to my belief that Furc is attempting the investigator win condition but is jeopardising it by being Furc, and thus needs to be killed by town.

The second argument can be disagreed with by saying "Town should never kill town, no matter what", however, the first argument still stands after this.
User avatar
xvart
xvart
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
xvart
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2829
Joined: September 11, 2009
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Post Post #3118 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:52 pm

Post by xvart »

SpyreX, 3083 wrote:Sure? But that would be just a different more retarded path towards #3 and if I'm gonna do that why the jesus would I fight it.
Because maybe a Cult buddy thought they could justify rezzing you and when the yammer jammer yellow hammer came out with Benmages claim it became too risky to claim it. But I'll take a look back at Furpants ISO to see if what you say adds up about him talking about you.

SpyreX, 3083 wrote:"He is a liability" IS NOT A REASON TO TAKE THIS SHOT JESUS H.
So in a standard game how do you eliminate liabilities?

So anyway, in light of all the ways this can be messed up. I won't kill Furcolow tonight.

xvart.
I only read quote walls.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
User avatar
Seacore
Seacore
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Seacore
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3109
Joined: November 4, 2009
Location: Australia, UCT+10

Post Post #3119 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:54 pm

Post by Seacore »

xvart wrote:So anyway, in light of all the ways this can be messed up. I won't kill Furcolow tonight.
Awesome, only a graverob plan and hito's post to go, a productive day.
User avatar
SpyreX
SpyreX
POWERFUL WIZARD
User avatar
User avatar
SpyreX
POWERFUL WIZARD
POWERFUL WIZARD
Posts: 18596
Joined: April 24, 2008

Post Post #3120 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:58 pm

Post by SpyreX »

So in a standard game how do you eliminate liabilities?
You lynch them. Or you have a vig shoot them when shooting them doesn't start the tipping point of doom. Good lord man.
Because maybe a Cult buddy thought they could justify rezzing you and when the yammer jammer yellow hammer came out with Benmages claim it became too risky to claim it. But I'll take a look back at Furpants ISO to see if what you say adds up about him talking about you.
But... that's exactly what would have happened?

Check D1 if you're curious about ISO. We did talk more than HAY YOU LIKE XVART YES NO.
Show
I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia. :P

Town: (49-47-1)
Scum: (23-11)
Third Party: (2-0)
Proud member of BaM
User avatar
xvart
xvart
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
xvart
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2829
Joined: September 11, 2009
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Post Post #3121 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:03 pm

Post by xvart »

SpyreX, 3120 wrote:Because maybe a Cult buddy thought they could justify rezzing you and when the yammer jammer yellow hammer came out with Benmages claim it became too risky to claim it. But I'll take a look back at Furpants ISO to see if what you say adds up about him talking about you.
But... that's exactly what would have happened? [/quote]
I don't know what happened exactly; but it is a possibility. And since you posted a list of possibilities you left that possibility off the list.
SpyreX, 3120 wrote:Check D1 if you're curious about ISO. We did talk more than HAY YOU LIKE XVART YES NO.
I'm actually going to be checking D2 to see if there is someone he said was town or someone he would have likely rezzed (if he rezzed at all).

xvart.
I only read quote walls.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
User avatar
SpyreX
SpyreX
POWERFUL WIZARD
User avatar
User avatar
SpyreX
POWERFUL WIZARD
POWERFUL WIZARD
Posts: 18596
Joined: April 24, 2008

Post Post #3122 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:06 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Well its not really a 'possibility' unless you want to say its .5 (start with 1 then chicken out).
Show
I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia. :P

Town: (49-47-1)
Scum: (23-11)
Third Party: (2-0)
Proud member of BaM
User avatar
Furcolow
Furcolow
To Be Frank
User avatar
User avatar
Furcolow
To Be Frank
To Be Frank
Posts: 5402
Joined: March 21, 2010
Location: Kentucky

Post Post #3123 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:26 pm

Post by Furcolow »

xvart wrote:
El Goosuki, 3039 wrote:While the argument that I am a triple-VI and policy-lynch is compelling, there is actually very little to recommend me as cult or murderer.
That's because there is "actually very little" to recommend you as... anything.
Furcolow, 3041 wrote:that doesnt mean i know plum is pro-town this game, just that i enjoy it when she is
So you picked Plum because you like her when she is pro-town, but warded her despite not knowing she is pro-town over hito who you said was the most pro-town day one (despite him needing to review the mechanics or whatever day two).

hito
- The point is, at this juncture, you also don't want this thing to hang over the rest of the game as a smoke screen for the scum by continuously leaving this hanging over me if I do not kill. I offered a conditional way to go through with the kill, and if I am told do not kill then I don't want to deal with this the rest of the game. It may direct the rezzers, but I'm not convinced that some Investigator rezzers wouldn't have better targets to protect and wouldn't mind seeing a dead Furculow tomorrow. So leave it up to them.

Let me ask you this: if we had flipped one Cult already would you approve of killing him? Two? Never? You really want someone who early hammers when told not to and thinks short days are better in endgame?
Furcolow, 3050 wrote:lynching xvart is better than letting him kill me even if he is town is what i mean to say, because his night actions have been terrible
I really don't think you want to make the comparison between me and you and which is better to have as "confirmed."
Benmage, 3060 wrote:If El G isn't bloody....then he didn't participate in the ritual, and this cower isnt a fakeclaim but this lynch is a huge policy lynch/mislynch.
This is a very valid point. What other insanity would they be covering up? Crafting three fetishes?

xvart.
I am better, the cult would actually kill you
User avatar
Furcolow
Furcolow
To Be Frank
User avatar
User avatar
Furcolow
To Be Frank
To Be Frank
Posts: 5402
Joined: March 21, 2010
Location: Kentucky

Post Post #3124 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:36 pm

Post by Furcolow »

Feysal wrote:Minor post explosion... I had to keep rewriting this post as things kept happening.

Furcolow, it appears you still don't understand why you are not trusted to grave rob. I will try to explain, once, and leave it at that. You are confirmed, that is not the problem. It is not your actions either. The problem is that you are erratic. You change your mind at the drop of a hat. Even if you were assigned to grave rob, you could not be trusted not to suddenly have a change of heart and do something else.

You've given several examples of this behaviour during this game, too many to list all. You decide something, only to change your mind moments later. Your actions last night are a good example... you said you sent a resuscitation of Plum, but then changed your mind and warded Iecerint. Before the night, you last said you were going to stalk Andrius. What is required from a grave robber is the ability to commit to an action, which you apparently lack. You are too impulsive.

As for your understanding of the setup, to be blunt, you are kidding yourself.
Furcolow #3029 wrote:You claim I do not know this setup, but my actions have been:
N0: Ward
N1: Search: Rez Kit
N2: Ward on someone who hasn't heard noise

I consider that very good knowledge of the setup.
N0: you failed to check your PM for available actions and warded someone who was not in the playerlist. N1: you searched for a res kit, apparently not realizing that you cannot be resuscitated if you use it. You very unwisely announced that you had a res kit, making yourself an easy target, and then became paranoid about being killed if you used it. If you're too afraid to use your res kit, then searching for it was a wasted action. N2: you warded someone who did not hear noise, but the list of potential targets you compiled was rich in errors.

In addition, you have made mistakes with the rules. So has nearly everyone else, but you've had rather more errors than most. You strike me as the type of player who would try to murder again if your first vig kill failed, not realizing that you would become a murderer that way. There is no way I would consider your knowledge of the setup good, based on what you've displayed of that knowledge.

I'm trying not to be rude about this, but I am saying it like it is. You are a wild card. You are unpredictable. And, therefore, you are unreliable.
Furcolow #3029 wrote:If the town is going to vote on this, though, it will not be a simple yes/no.
Frankly, your attempt to dictate terms for how we should vote on your action is absurd. You know perfectly well that using the syntax you require would get confused with regular votes, so there is no way 75% of players are going to use it. This tells me you have no desire whatsoever to have your action voted upon, which is just as well, since the town cannot depend on you to do as requested either.

On to other matters...

I would've been fine with the first draft of the grave rob plan. VP Baltar has two insanities, and taking a third would make his Occult Books all but useless... but even as it is, it is unlikely there are any cultists with three insanities for him to detect. hitogoroshi has one insanity and Forensic Tools, so getting another insanity would do little harm.

I guess that Seacore is okay too, but not sure about Trilobite. Not an issue with trust - but he might have Occult Books, he just has not used them yet.

Regarding whether xvart should murder Furcolow, time to be realistic. Furcolow has confessed to being selfish, he will not resuscitate anyone at the expense of his own life. That opens up so many possibilities of WIFOM that the murder is simply not worth it, and xvart should drop the idea.

Besides, I don't think xvart is cult anyway. Remember that he and Baby Spice claimed to have warded MoI? We now know MoI was a wannabe murderer, so we can forget any ideas involving cult warding cult. I'm all but certain that at least one of Baby Spice and xvart actually warded MoI, and since cult would not do that, one of them is town. Even with the stalk, I believe it to be xvart.
ever thought that when i acrue an insanity i might take taboo on rez kits?
Locked