Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[Jahudo]

Magnus's point was that VV was not an obvtownie to him, so even if another player became a popular wagon it wouldn't necessarily lead to magnus thinking he'd have to defend someone in order to get people onto Rhinox. Unless magnus also liked the new wagon slightly less than Rhinox. Couldn't that scenario have still came up? How long would it take until you tell people that even good wagons can wait because Rhinox is a great wagon?

[UncertainKitten]

What the flying fuck just happened? Fate, your typing makes my eyes hurt. Can you do the rational list thing again for the townie on the go? I've had a lot to do lately. I THINK I see the points on mango, particularly how he comes out of the shadows to defend himself but doesn't seem to do much scum hunting, but I'd still like to see the clear bulleted list.

I SUPPORT THE BULLETS FOR BULLETS MOVEMENT!

[magnus_orion]

@UK: could you explain the points you think you see? I'd really like to know what the case against me is.

Socio starts off saying my meta is bothering him, which is fine. Follows it up with that I could've been bussing... alright I guess. I mean sure, I COULD have been bussing. It's conceivable. It's also conceivable that I wasn't bussing.
AGM says YEAH! And also comments about being drunk
Fate says that we should listen to drunken philosophers (so I'm scum because AGM made a comment of agreement whilst being drunk.) and votes me
AGM then says that I'll dig holes for myself, whereas vezok intends to stall, so fate should vote vezok. Fate replies that Vezok needs to claim without being voted
AGM agrees and votes me....
Fate demands Vezok vote me... so Vezok does
Fate then posts this:

SHORT ABND LLONG… THERE WAS NO REASON FOR MO TO PARK HIS VOTE OJ RHINOX WITH TEHEE FENCE SITTING UNLESS HIS SCUM PALZ WERE ALREADY PN THE VV MISLYNCH.

I notice when I check the thread and begin to reply to it, during which fate makes a series of posts.
When my reply goes through I added some additional comments related to a few of those posts, but it turns up 4 minutes after fate's most recent post.
Fate brings this up and Spyrex proceeds to vote me.

I point out that the case against me is awful... so sociopath votes me.

Fate accuses me of strawmanning and I claim

That's it.
I don't understand.
I mean looking at it now it boils down to that I COULD have been bussing, and that
I guess there was no reason for me as town to vote rhinox unless scum were voting VV? Maybe? Fate can you make the part I quoted here clearer?
I mean that doesn't even make sense.

[Faraday]

Vote count 2.8

Ellibereth (2)

GammaGooey, Jahudo

[/b]

magnus_orion (5)

Fate, AlmasterGM, Vezokpiraka, SpyreX, Sociopath

AlmasterGM (1)

DTMaster

SpyreX (1)

UncertainKitten

Not voting (2):

Ellibereth, magnus_orion

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline's 17th of December at 3pm GMT.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, that's why I want Fate to explain in a language I can understand.

But, regardless, it DOES seem like you've not been doing a whole lot today until ~*~suddenly~*~ you have to defend yourself.

And that's the point I see so far. The rest I can't even begin to decipher.

[magnus_orion]

I've been asking questions. I'm trying to obtain reads until I'm reasonably convinced someone is a good lynch, at which point I intend to attack them and see how they respond and push their lynch. I'd be asking more if people weren't just ignoring my questions.

Look
DT - town
Spyrex - town
Fate - town
UK - town
Jahudo - meh (townish)
Elli - meh
socio - scummy
gamma - townish
Agm - town
magnus - town
vezok - Arrgh (townish by claim only)


Ugh, fine, I've waited long enough for socio to answer.

vote: sociopath

I believe his attack against spyrex was scum motivated. His nonsensical/nonexistent responses have done little to dissuade me from this. His reasons for not voting spyrex fly straight in the face of his reasons for calling spyrex scum. Despite my pressing he refuses to acknowledge or explain this away. The entire point of calling spyrex scum seems to be, in my view, weighing the plausibility of a spyrex wagon, which he already knew support existed for, via fate.

[Fate]

OH HOLLY JOY WE GOT OURSELVES A SCUMLIST OF ALL BUT SOCIO.

AINT WE A FINE HUNTER OF SCUMZ THAT HAZ BEEN BACKED UP AGAINST THE WALL DUE TO TOO MANY TOWN READS.

YOURE SCREWED MANGO.

YOU WANT TO CALL SOCIO SCUM YOU CALL ME SCUM FIRST. I CALLED SPYREX SCUM BEFORE SOCIO, AND-THOUGH I DIDNT SAY IT AT THE TIME DUE TO NO COMPUTER-I HAD THE EXACT SAME REASONINGS AS HIM

[magnus_orion]

yeah, I know, you said it first, but I have a lot less confidence in your scumhunting than sociopath. You just attack whatever you can, because you know that makes you look town, and every so often you hit a point people agree with and it snowballs. Socio, I've played with a bit, and I expect better from him.

[Fate]

Really, I attack everyone I can.

because I have a LONG FUCKIN LIST of people I HAVEN'T attacked this game, because they are town.

You oversimpliying my play to "rages just to look town" is just the same as you ovversimplifying the CASE against you.

And guess what? ITS SCUMMY AS FUCK.

BECAUSE IF YOU THINK I ONLY MAKE CASES TO LOOK TOWN, THEN WHY DO YOU HAVE A TOWN READ ON ME? ARENT I JUST SCUM TRYING TO LOOK TOWN BY EXPLOITING MY META?

BUT NO, TAHT THOUGHT APPARENTYLY DIDNT CROSS YOUR MIND BECAUSE YOU ARE SCUM AND YOU HAVE NO INTEREST IN TRYING TO PAINT ME AS SCUM BC YOULL GO DOWN FASTER IN FLAMES THAT THE TAJ MAJAL.

YOU CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN GATHERING NOTES BUT ALL YOU HAVE AS RESULT OF THOSE NOTES IS A SHITTY LIST AND A SHITTIER VOTE WITH A CRAPTASTIC CASE.

YUO SIR, ARE SCUM, YOU SIR, WERE CAUGHT.

[magnus_orion]

No, you pick a handful of people and tunnel. And don't second guess yourself. It is a bit more refined than flailing but it does still lead to relatively bad cases.
And you do it because you know it makes you look town, it doesn't follow that you're scum. You can do something cause you know it makes you look town, and be town.

[magnus_orion]

Also, off topic, the Taj Mahal is made of marble.

[UncertainKitten]

So, wait, m_o...Fate is town...because he's trying to look town? Did I miss something here?

Ah, fuck, Fate got to it first.

m_o: Why would a pro town Fate pick a few people regardless of alignment and tunnel? He's actually had fairly liquid reads this game, IMO.

Anyway, Fate, BULLETS FOR BULLETS! PLEASE!

[SocioPath]

Here is a bullet for ya:

Mag, how were you planning on getting Rhino lynched TODAY. Like...pretend he didn't die at night. What would you have done and stuff?

um... attacked him...
I guess maybe I put too much faith in the town's ability to make the right decisions? IDK, I just sorta figured it would be easy, since he seemed so obvscum to me.

my only option to push a rhinox wagon would be to defend VV, hence the dilemma

Mango, yesterday...his "only option" to get Rhino lynched would be to defend VV.

Mango, today, if Rhino was still alive...he would have..."um...attacked him..."

COMPELLING ARGUEMENT.

Although an Elli wagoned built up, as did a Mango wagon...maybe the only options to UUUMMM ATTACKING would be to defend Elli/Mangy?

[magnus_orion]

... what? He doesn't know their alignments...
I'm saying that once he decides someone is scum, he just keeps attacking them until the whole thing snowballs. I presume the reason he does this is because he knows he doesn't get lynched when he does this, hence the whole "magnus is trying to fade into the background by asking questions therefore he is scum" implying he thinks town should be actively attacking someone, at the center of what's going on, which has been a pretty prevalent theme of his play. I think his eagerness to attack with abandon is a town-tell, but I don't think it's particularly great scumhunting behavior is all.

Anyway, my opinion is that fate is more prone to make the attack in question than sociopath, hence why I still think fate is town, but I still suspect sociopath for it.

Preview edit: yeah, I did say that, but I said it because Rhino hadn't been talking at the time. I expected him to talk LATER, and continue to talk. I'd have more things to read when he's actively making content. Its not really a difficult concept. SPEAKING OF: I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN, SOCIO!

[Gammagooey]

FATEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

You're forgetting about the damn scummy lurker and going after the guy overdefending himself JUST LIKE YESTERDAY.
Magnus's Socio suspicion is a bit OMGUSy but I can see magnus believing Socio-scum considering the best scumhunting he's done is on prob-town SpyreX, and he's pretty high up there on my death list too if Elli flips scum given his reluctance to vote him despite saying he's scummy multiple times.

Elli's had 3 days to catch up since his SATs finished and he STILL hasn't done shit except narrow down his vote to one of Four people, and Rhinox had him listed as town with Zito (who is now almost certainly town) for a retarded reason, And his d1 play consisted of nothing but Fluff and explanationless VV votes.

Wagon swing pleeease.

[SocioPath]

his reluctance to vote him despite saying he's scummy multiple times.

I NO RITE?

[Gammagooey]

YEAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPP.
AND IT'S NOT LIKE I'VE SEEN YOU CALL YOURSELF SCUMMY AS SCUM IN HOLY ORDERS OR ANYTHING YA KNOW.

[Fate]

YOU GUYS DON'T HAVRE THE BHALLS TO LYNCH MANGO AFTER I GET NKD TONITE

ELLIE CAN DIE ANY DAY WITH HIS PLAY

[SocioPath]

YEAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPP.
AND IT'S NOT LIKE I'VE SEEN YOU CALL YOURSELF SCUMMY AS SCUM IN HOLY ORDERS OR ANYTHING YA KNOW.

CALLING SELF SCUMMY?

MOAR LIEK POINTING OUT THAT MY VOTE HAS BEEN ALL OVER BOTH ELLI AND MANGO TODAY.

IF I LEFT IT ALONE LIEK TWO PAGES AGO(TWAS ON ELLI), YOU COULD GO LIEK "ZOMG U CALL MANGO SCUMMY BUT YER VOTE ISNT ON HIM"

[UncertainKitten]

@Fate: Why won't you give me that list? You did for VV...

[Gammagooey]

FINE SOCIO LET'S HAVE HAPPY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION TIMEZ.

ELLI GETS LYNCHED TODAY AND FLIPS SCUM.
AFTER MUCH PARTYING WHO WOULD YOU VOTE TOMMORROW?

[SocioPath]

MANG. GUS.

[Gammagooey]

So instead of Elli-scum hurrying up his reread and either bussing or trying to get a counterwagon from magnus going he...waits out 8 votecounts of day 2 for his buddy to vote first?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmno.

[Fate]

@Fate: Why won't you give me that list? You did for VV...

I STILL DON'T HAVE A DAMN COMPUTER WORK WITH WHAT YOU HAVE DAMNT

[UncertainKitten]

I CAN'T READ WHAT YOU'VE GIVEN! I'VE TRIED!

HOWEVER, I WILL STATE THAT I AM NOT AGAINST A MANGO LYNCH AT THIS POINT, AND IN FACT WILL VOTE HIM NOW SINCE SPYREX IS A TERRIBLE LYNCH!

Unvote, Vote Mango

I WANT THAT LIST STILL THOUGH! AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! BECAUSE LISTS ARE AWESOME! BULLETS FOR BULLETS!