Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[jasonT1981]

wow.....

[Furcolow]

fur, im not going to argue anymore with you, ive made my points.. you have made yours.. ive countered your arguements, your countering mine.. our fight will end up taking over this game and take away from being able to find the last scum.

this is kind of what i was looking for

unvote

[Sotty7]

Because I'm trying to figure out who are last scum is between Mina and Thor atm.

We've got two lynches available last I checked. How about we lynch Mina - if she's not scum I'll probably be fine being lynched next because I'll have no clue who is.

Temptation, thy name is Thor.

I think benmage asks a great question of Mina, why aren't you voting Percy. You wrote that epic novel on him that really made me understand where you were coming from but for you not to follow up with a vote seems... Weird. Are you really second guessing yourself that much? There is a disconnect here somewhere.

jason I can somewhat see where you are coming from RE:benmage. I don't think he is as cleared as he likes to think, but in the same breath I'm not finding his hammer yesterday that scummy. We all pretty much thought the game was going to be over. If I was in a position to grab a game winning hammer I would have taken it with equal gumption.

With that in mind I feel like I want to hammer Mina myself. I'm still working though some ISOs, but I can't over look her strong defense of Babyspice. Especially with how she was willing to call Baby scummy but seemingly unwilling to actually lynch her. The more I read over her poking of me yesterday, the more it feels like a chainsaw attack. After Mina my next two suspects are Nul and Thor. Nul because Elmo was almost as guilty as Mina when it came to Babyspice defending and Thor because of Nikanor and basically Thor and his jokey scum claim.

[Thor665]

Good, Sotty, go with that.

Look at the number of pretty assured town we have. Look at the number of suspects you have. This is not hard math. If I am that big of a distraction/confusion to town I *should* be lynched. That's half the argument for Mina now - she's potential scum and she's suspicious. We've got a hella'ton of lynches available. Let's pop the players who are super suspicious and either nail scum or narrow the field. Scum lost this game ages ago, we're just mopping up here.

[Benmage]

Scum lost this game ages ago, we're just mopping up here.

Exactly....zzzzz...lets do this. More Mina votes.

[Sotty7]

Alright, alright.

Vote: Mina

[Benmage]

this is kind of what i was looking for

unvote

Back to Mina buddy.

[Thor665]

So, if Mina flips scum I'm allowed to mock Sotty, yes?

[Zachrulez]

3rd Vote count of Day 3 Phase 1:

Mina - 4 (Benmage, Thor665, Percy, Sotty7)
Percy - 2 (KaleiÐoscøpe, I Am Innocent)
Benmage - 1 (JasonT1981)

Not Voting: (Mina, Nul, Furcolow)

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Deadline for both phases of day 3 is Monday December 27th at 11am CST.

[Sotty7]

So, if Mina flips scum I'm allowed to mock Sotty, yes?

No

[Mina]

I think benmage asks a great question of Mina, why aren't you voting Percy. You wrote that epic novel on him that really made me understand where you were coming from but for you not to follow up with a vote seems... Weird. Are you really second guessing yourself that much? There is a disconnect here somewhere.

Well...

yes

. I'm not ready to vote. I want to hear a defence to Percy for that post. I haven't even

gotten

to Nul's posts. My mind still hadn't been made up. For the record, I'm pissed off that you're using that against me, considering that he's the leading counterwagon and my only hope of saving my skin. I should have pretended to be more confident than I actually was for self-preservation's sake.

Actually, I was in the middle of writing a post in which I was going to vote for

Kaleidoscope

, although mostly as pressure to get him to answer all the questions that he's been ignoring all game and give solid reads. Then had he answered my questions, I was going to vote for either Nul or Percy.

Guys, can you wagon Kaleidoscope during phase 2, even if you don't lynch him? The slot could use a bit of pressure. Please get him to answer these questions:

Kaleidoscope:

1) Why do you suspect Percy? Give us reasons. You mentioned that you hated his post about the Kingmaker. But on D1, was there anything else?
2) Why were you willing to explain to Percy before why you suspected Red Coyote, but not willing to explain to me why you suspected Percy?
3) I don't think you've answered this:

Why did you change your vote to RC at this point? I don't understand. You had said before that you were voting me only because of the size of the wagon. Moving your vote at this point made RC the bigger wagon by one vote because you moved from me. So, plz2explain?

Vote count before you switched from Percy to Red: 5 Percy vs. 4 Red
Vote count after you switched from Percy to Red: 5 Red vs. 4 Percy

You see why "I voted for the biggest bandwagon" doesn't fly?

4) What were your thoughts on Baby Spice vs. Lrdwhyt/Empking? Why didn't you ever weigh in on the leading wagons? Who would you have voted for had you chosen between the two wagons before the deadline? Be honest.

Sotty, what do you think of Percy? You said you saw where I was coming from, but you didn't give your own thoughts on the case.

Can you just give me some time to get out my last reads before hammering? I'll also explain more about what my motivation for suggesting the speedlynch plan, and why it should be bad evidence against both Percy and Nul. I'd also prefer you wait for Percy to give an answer to my epic wallpost, but if not, then please, please pressure him to answer it.

(EBWoPreview: Never mind, I though I was at L-1 for some reason.)

I'll be out for a while, but I can stay up late tonight and try to finish them. I'll try to get them done before the weekend so everyone can move on.

[Benmage]

Actually, I was in the middle of writing a post in which I was going to vote for

Kaleidoscope

, although mostly as pressure to get him to answer all the questions that he's been ignoring all game and give solid reads. Then had he answered my questions, I was going to vote for either Nul or Percy.

I never believe it when people go "I was in the middle of writing" Bullshit. People go from not on the site, to being in the middle of writing something just as controversy sparks up. Post the notes atleast....What could you have had?Did you actually... plan on writing something...or were you literally writing something...I'd never not post or complete some sort of effort I did.

[Benmage]

Guys, can you wagon Kaleidoscope during phase 2, even if you don't lynch him? The slot could use a bit of pressure. Please get him to answer these questions:

Saying you want to vote/wagon someone just for the sake of pressuring them nullifies all the pressure. *sigh* So basic.

[Mina]

^Do you actually want me to post what I have written? It's all gibberish and half-finished sentences discussing my reads. I don't write in linear fashion.

I wasn't going to announce, "Guys, it's a pressure wagon!" but it seemed as though everyone had agreed that phase one was over, anyway.

[Sotty7]

I personally still think Percy is town. His paranoia surrounding me feels like something a townie would do. I think as scum Percy would be happy I'm not all on his case, but he keeps bringing up his worries in such a way that makes me think he is really a paranoid townie worried about me.

Your post did do one thing in making me understand why you suspect him, even if I don't necessarily agree with you.

Have to say I am disspointed in the almost KScope vote. I think we're beyond voting for pressure at this point. I don't see the need to type up all that on Percy if you weren't going to vote him.

I will unvote you if you get to L-1 without having posted your reads however. If you really are working on them, they should be up in a day at the most.

[Mina]

^Thanks, Sotty.

This weekend is a really bad time for me. I'll be working all day tomorrow and then be out at a Christmas party (for which I don't have an outfit to wear). I'll try to stay up late tonight and write as much as I can for those who are really really impatient to kill me already, though.

(You know, if you're impressed with how well I'm cooperating, you guys could make it up to me by offering to replace into a very short and close-to-finished open game in which I can't end the night until I find a replacement. *puppy dog eyes*)

I'll cut to the chase and say that my current suspect tiers (where higher up means more suspicious) are the following:

Tier 1: Nul, Percy, Kaleidoscope
Tier 2: Thor, IAI, Furcolow
Tier 3: Sotty, Benmage, jason

I'd ideally like to ISO each player on that list and post my notes before I die, though, although I don't think everyone wants to wait for me to do that. Really, I think every player (including those on the top tier) has done at least one thing this game that looks very innocent, so I'm at a bit of a loss.

Would people like reasons why I trust the bottom tier, or should I just stick to ISO-ing the top third or two-thirds of that list?

So, if Mina flips scum I'm allowed to mock Sotty, yes?

Sotty has had me as a low-grade suspect all game, and you haven't attacked me once all game. Is this joke sincere, sarcastic, or just an attempt to look innocent? Are you really saying you'd deserve credit if I were scum when you'd have been the very LAST person to catch on?

Look at the number of pretty assured town we have. Look at the number of suspects you have. This is not hard math. If I am that big of a distraction/confusion to town I *should* be lynched. That's half the argument for Mina now - she's potential scum and

she's suspicious

. We've got a hella'ton of lynches available. Let's pop the players who are

super suspicious

and either nail scum or narrow the field. Scum lost this game ages ago, we're just mopping up here.

All right, that does it. You're saying you find me "super suspicious"? I'm calling you on this.

Some of your quotes from yesterday:

Isn't voting Mina for dithering a bit like voting Furcolow for OMGUSing? I dunno, I agree Mina looks bad but she just doesn't feel that scummy to me. Meanwhile we have Empking who is most assuredly acting dicey around important wagons and whose predecessors did the same. He's even been bouncing around today trying to be wherever it looks like an alternate wagon is going to spring up.

Mina's last post

looks so town

.
Empking's last post looks so scum.

Please don't make me have to evolve into Benmage as my next evolutionary step of meta.

No, I consider; 'hey look, we have 7 mislynches, here's a list of who we shouldn't lynch, now let's lynch everyone else (including me) and we almost assuredly win automatically and if not those people on the 'not lynch' list should be able to muddle through in endgame"

a town tell

. Also, I actually agree that if the case on her is legit she'd have to be pretty derpy town when it comes to understanding how to bus/defend her buddies.

At the very least I consider it less scummy then 'If I was scum I'd be on Percy right now...never mind that I was on Percy yesterday and was on Percy for a period of time today.'

Seriously. You don't just seem to suspect Empking more than me (although I left in the last line of that third quote for objectivity's sake). You seem to strongly feel that

I'm town

. Now you're saying you found my behaviour suspicious all along...but you were just sooooooo much more certain of Empking that you couldn't even

believe

that I'd be scum.

Also, you never answered this:

My vote for Mina would pretty much be

either sheeping Locke's case

, or for the reasons I noted in 1128 - and is probably a vague and uncertain combination of both. If she's scum, huzzah for our side, if she's town she has to go because we'll be having this debate before every single lynch otherwise.

Okay, maybe I can buy that you're willing to lynch me in spite of your D2 town read simply to remove a distraction or get information, although it's not an argument I'm a fan of. But what happened to this:

I've only ever played with Mina as town. She dithers as town. Unless she doesn't dither as scum (which I doubt) all that shows is dithering is a normal part of her meta and

is not the most optimal place to build a case and when I read Locke's case that's what I see - 'Mina didn't make solid commitments to reads'

.

It seemed that you didn't like Locke's case much at the time, but now you're listing it as one of your primary reasons for voting me.

Please explain why. I want lots and lots of words, beyond "sheeping Locke's case," which you never liked in the first place.

Write a case on me. Explain your motives and thought process behind your change of heart in longwinded detail, like I did for Percy, and why you think the towntells you'd noticed yesterday are no longer convincing. Share your opinions on the other players in the game as well. It doesn't have to be 3500 words long, but a couple of paragraphs would be nice.

Maybe it's just that I'm more prone to town reads than scum reads. But normally, when I have a gut town read on someone, it stays even after my top suspect is lynched, although I might have doubts. And if I change my mind, I can usually explain what caused the change.

Instead, you've gone from steadfastly defending me and seeming passionately against my lynch, to trying to egg people onto my wagon. Worse, you're not even making a case for my guilt, just trying to tempt them by saying, "Hey, she's a suspect, and we have aaaaaaaaall the lynches we need, so why think it through?" And part of your argument is that you and Sotty are my only two defenders, when

you and Sotty are half of the players voting for me right now

. (In all fairness, though, IAI and Kscope wouldn't be sorry to see me gone...at least, if they were still reading the game. <_<)

And you're saying that if I flip town, you'd be totally okay with being lynched yourself, even though you weren't even on my original lynch list. (In all fairness, that's not something I'd expect to hear from scum.) You have no clue who the last scum is, so hey, let other players make the decisions in endgame!

Thor, be honest. Are you doing the same thing you did in

A Clash of Kings

Mafia, in which you checked out at the end and stopped wanting to think things through, yes or no?

Look, I understand that the town's situation is really good, that I'm a decent lynch by PoE, that Locke's case almost made me cry, and that mislynching me wouldn't be the end of the world. But simply out of respect to me, can you try to give a shit right now? I know you're really hoping that this game will end with my death, so you'd rather save your breath. But I'm putting a ton of work into this game. At least do me the courtesy of making a suspect list, taking a stand on every player in the game, thinking things through critically, and writing an actual case on me. Sotty and Percy did me that courtesy. Furthermore, if you're town, then your play today is guaranteeing that the town won't win until at least Day Four, because by being so blasé, you're serving yourself up on a silver platter as a mislynch. And if the killer is someone unlikely like I am Innocent, your lynch might make the difference between a win and a loss.

Also, if you're willing to get lynched, think of it this way. Today is your last chance to get all your reads out! Why not make the effort?

Yesterday, I wouldn't have even considered lynching you. I probably trusted you as much as (or even more than) jason on gut. Now I'm almost considering moving you to my top tier, simply because of how disinterested you seem. I was really hoping my lynch list would either make the last scum confess by proving that his situation was mathematically impossible or provoke a nervous reaction along the lines of Percy's and Elmo's of "Um...haha, what are you talking about, lynch me along with all my suspects? Aren't you being a bit

rash

?" but now I deeply regret ever mentioning the word "speedlynch." I'm actually starting to agree with this from Locke:

Even if we do lynch those 5 candidates first, we should do it properly, hearing from everyone and seeing where and how they decide to place their votes. The large majority of accusations here are going to be town on town, so it's not going to be hard for the last scum to make people look bad for pushing for a townie lynch. If there was some heavy bussing going on and one of the 'town' players does turn out to be scum, they've got a breathing period of 4 or 5 easy lynches before anyone even starts to think they're scum. Let's not forget that we have people playing who can bus both their partners D1 and D2 and still win games as scum. That's why we should make them work hard and not end up on D5 or D6 saying 'hey, we haven't got anything out of Sotty for a while' or 'has anyone seen IAI?'.

And hell, even

this

from Percy (which in hindsight, is a point in his favour, since at least he's consistent on "speedlynches = bad"):

I don't think we should be callous with our lynches at all, and this idea that we have mislynches to spare is a terribad attitude to encourage. If you weaken the conviction and reasoning required to join a wagon and allow for the "well I wasn't sure they weren't scum" defence for any mislynch the town's job becomes much, much harder.

Because people are getting a bit too complacent. Kaleidoscope and IAI have both posted once today, just to throw a mindless vote on Percy.

[Thor665]

@Mina - perhaps I am checking out, if you ask again I'll actually bother to go through with your apparent desire to have me write out super ginormus walls of mega-death opinions and respond to all the questions/concerns you just posited (though I happily endorse my right not to make it remotely as long as you're going on about because I just don't do wall posting cases anymore and haven't since my very first few games). But, before that I want you to consider the basic logic I'm coming from in the world o' being checked out;

Look at your tier system.

You have 3 strong town reads
You have 6 potential suspects.

With 10 players alive scum will get *2 kills*
Town will get 6 lynches.
It is a math problem now and I actually feel better about both furc and Percy than you do. So I think we should just let the lynch line roll because that will get us the win without walls of text, without stress, and without WIFOM insanity from looking for one scum in a pool of 10.

Again, if you demand it I will do your wall justice.
But consider the above, consider the suspect pool, and realize that though I'm not exactly setting any scumhunting standards of excellence here that it's really not a thing.

[Mina]

All right, Thor, I'm asking again. I swear, if I can get

Faraday

to make a wall post, I can certainly wrangle one from you.

Seriously, it doesn't have to be a Mina-length (or even a Sotty-length or Red-length or Percy-length) case. Just two paragraphs would be fine. I'd just like to hear your thought process more. Your stance on me and autopilot today was my only issue with your play, and I just think it would be informative if you explained your thought process so as to help both me and other people get a read on you.

Just a point about the assembly line argument--sure, I have 6 potential suspects, but one of our six lynches will be wasted on me. And considering that every player on my bottom tier has been voted for today, I'm not confident everyone will stick to the plan once the stronger players are dead. But fair enough. I felt the same way yesterday, and I certainly understand the temptation not to over-WIFOM everything. Maybe I'm just a bit self-absorbed because it's my own life on the line and this is my last chance to contribute.

BRB.

[Thor665]

I'll assault your post tomorrow - or at least the bulk of it.

[Benmage]

Mina posts so much and it doesn't even read like a case. Is it? If not then wtf are you doing.....

I'd love to see her try and put it into quick bullets.

Lets look at what we have and what Mina is doing (other than stalling the inevitable).

-Posting tons (why?)
-She's scum?
-As scum: her only option is to stall...post a lot, maybe attack someone else. Hope to appeal, get some sort of mercy-thing, and have things/pressure swing off her.

-She's town?
-As town: WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with her. Why is she bothering with all this when her lynch is inevitable and this game is in the bag. Her endless clutter of words are harming this town 10X more than any good they could bring. She's going to die. She should accept it. Maybe have a few CHOICE words and let it happen. Goddamn.

Conclusion: She's scum.

[Mina]

-She's town?
-As town: WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with her. Why is she bothering with all this when her lynch is inevitable and this game is in the bag. Her endless clutter of words are harming this town 10X more than any good they could bring. She's going to die. She should accept it. Maybe have a few CHOICE words and let it happen. Goddamn.

Oh, fuck off.

I'm probably going to get about three hours of sleep tonight, just so I can make it easier for you all to lynch me as soon as possible.

I'm putting pressure on Thor right now. I'm putting pressure on Percy. No one else is mentioning the things I'm noticing about their shift in stances on me, or about Percy's shift on Sotty and comments that didn't sit right. Even if town is very likely to win, that doesn't mean I should be overconfident and stop playing toward my win condition. After my death, maybe the answers they give to my questions will be informative. No one has pressured Nul to explain the contradiction in his stance on Percy (or his dropping of Sotty when his case didn't attract steam), or noticed Elmo's horrible post tossing suspicion onto the "confirmed" players without elaborating, or deconstructed his defence to my original case...or on the flipside, noticed that Elmo replacing out might be a towntell simply because he'd have to be despicable as scum to leave his replacement in an impossible situation. I think I'm the only person in the game who remembers that Kscope and IAI are still playing.

But of course, you don't notice, because you haven't actually

read

a single post I've written. You never explained why you disliked my D2 Elmo case. You never explained your problem with my Percy post. You brush aside or ignore half the questions I ask you.

You do not know how hard it was for me to swallow my pride and suggest a plan that would almost certainly lead to a win but guaranteed my lynch in the first place. Not getting lynched as town is probably the only thing I do right at Mafia, and letting yourself be mislynched is one of the most antitown thing you can do. (Oh, and I don't give a fuck if you accuse me of appealing to emotion right now. What are you going to do, lynch me?)

Seriously, what's the most protown thing to do in this situation, self-vote? Stop posting altogether, just so everyone can feel warm and fuzzy about lynching me? Ask everyone to vote me off as quickly and with as little discussion as possible, just to prove to everyone that I'm sooooooo self-sacrificing? (Meanwhile, only scum would waste all this effort when I'd be guaranteed a loss even if I stall my lynch for a phase or two.) I don't know who the last scum is. Rather than trying to unload votes onto someone else who might be innocent or writing long posts in my defence, I'm just pointing out a bunch of stuff I've noticed and trying to get as many of my thoughts out. Just leave me alone and ignoring my spamming if you don't like it. And then maybe read my posts during Phase Two.

I've pretty much accepted that I'm going to be lynched, but if people miraculously notice that I'm town,

fantastic

! (The closest I ever came to being mislynched before, I somehow talked my way out of being counterclaimed as doctor in a no-flip game simply by scumhunting my ass off

well, that, and being so crazy no one could believe I was a killer

.). But don't you dare bash me for being one of the only players who are trying anymore. I'm not going to roll over and die just to appease the lazy players with short attention spans.

Also, it's hilarious that you're saying me using lots of words and posting lots is a

scumtell

, especially since you've seen me play before. It would be a scumtell if I was posting

one-liners

.

Ugh. Now I'm pissed off.

[Mina]

Okay, guys, I'm really sorry, but I have to run to work. My post is almost done, but I'm just slow. I'm honestly not stalling; I stayed up until 5 AM before dozing off. I'll try to finish it by Saturday or Sunday night.

There isn't much activity, anyway, so it's not like there's an urgent rush. And I also think it'd be informative to wait until see Percy's reaction (note to Percy: this means that if you want me lynched, you'd better get back in the thread as quickly as possible). If he's scum, right now it's in his best interest to shut up and lurk until everyone finally gets impatient and lynches me, so he won't have to take a stand on my most recent posts. I'd also like Thor to give me that wall post he promised.

Just one quick point:
[quote="Sotty7"']I personally still think Percy is town. His paranoia surrounding me feels like something a townie would do. I think as scum Percy would be happy I'm not all on his case, but he keeps bringing up his worries in such a way that makes me think he is really a paranoid townie worried about me.[/quote]
I don't know. I know I've actually done that in a game off-site as scum--faked paranoia and wariness of another player who was known for being a scary scum player, simply to mimic how I interact with him as town. He could be trying to subtly discredit you.

Do you at least agree that this needs an answer:

But speaking of which, what happened to this:

I think Sotty is prob town after the flip. Unless it gets to LyLo and things are very confusing, I won't be making my promised case against her.

Of course they all have a chance of being scum. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. I think they have less of a chance of being scum than other players; a scum continuum from least to most likely would look like <jason, Benmage, Locke, Sotty, Thor, IAI, Furcolow

So now Sotty is your second suspect if I flip town? What happened to Thor, IAI, and Furcolow? Or hell, Kaleidoscope or Nul?

Because I'm personally unconvinced by his "One of Mina or Sotty absolutely has to be scum because of Baby Spice's weird Lrdwhyt vote" argument. After I flip, it sets him up to push you as a lynch after.

[jasonT1981]

-Posting tons (why?)
-She's scum?
-As scum: her only option is to stall...post a lot, maybe attack someone else. Hope to appeal, get some sort of mercy-thing, and have things/pressure swing off her.

-She's town?
-As town: WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with her. Why is she bothering with all this when her lynch is inevitable and this game is in the bag. Her endless clutter of words are harming this town 10X more than any good they could bring. She's going to die. She should accept it. Maybe have a few CHOICE words and let it happen. Goddamn.

Conclusion: She's scum.

hmmm i think you have this the wrong way round.

Town would post lots trying to explain things, give her reads... as scum she could have the luxery of not doing this and letting things slide a bit. Posting alot is not stalling, not posting would be stalling.

[jasonT1981]

Also posting lots is better than posting nothing!

[Thor665]

Okay, today I'm going to delve back into my old PbP and wall post mentality that I haven't really used since forever and have been pretty happy with that decision. That said, I was a wall poster in a previous life so we'll see how this one goes (also, unlike Mina, I can actually produce a wall without needing three days to emotionally prep myself )

TL: DR - We should lynch Mina as the first lynch of the day.

Spoiler: Crouching Mina Hidden Wall

So, if Mina flips scum I'm allowed to mock Sotty, yes?

Sotty has had me as a low-grade suspect all game, and you haven't attacked me once all game. Is this joke sincere, sarcastic, or just an attempt to look innocent? Are you really saying you'd deserve credit if I were scum when you'd have been the very LAST person to catch on?

Hello super sensitive. the joke was about how long it took Sotty to come around to a very obvious and very needed lynch. I'm pretty sure Sotty got it. I'm not claiming credit, nor would I deserve it.

Look at the number of pretty assured town we have. Look at the number of suspects you have. This is not hard math. If I am that big of a distraction/confusion to town I *should* be lynched. That's half the argument for Mina now - she's potential scum and

she's suspicious

. We've got a hella'ton of lynches available. Let's pop the players who are

super suspicious

and either nail scum or narrow the field. Scum lost this game ages ago, we're just mopping up here.

All right, that does it. You're saying you find me "super suspicious"? I'm calling you on this.

Never mind the fact that it's pretty clear I'm inferring that everyone who is super suspicious should be lynched and have also clearly stated that I don't have any real suspects after you - but, sure, let's consider the evidence and go over it. The important thing to keep in mind is that all of these quotes come from a universe where the competing wagons were Mina and Empking;

Isn't voting Mina for dithering a bit like voting Furcolow for OMGUSing? I dunno, I agree Mina looks bad but she just doesn't feel that scummy to me. Meanwhile we have Empking who is most assuredly acting dicey around important wagons and whose predecessors did the same. He's even been bouncing around today trying to be wherever it looks like an alternate wagon is going to spring up.

I don't consider your dithering to be a super scumtell. I consider Empking to be *more* scummy than what you've done. It's almost as though I'm saying Empking is a better lynch than Mina.

Mina's last post

looks so town

.
Empking's last post looks so scum.

Please don't make me have to evolve into Benmage as my next evolutionary step of meta.

Your last post looks townish.
Empking's last post looks scummy.
It's almost as though I'm saying Empking is a better lynch than Mina.

No, I consider; 'hey look, we have 7 mislynches, here's a list of who we shouldn't lynch, now let's lynch everyone else (including me) and we almost assuredly win automatically and if not those people on the 'not lynch' list should be able to muddle through in endgame"

a town tell

. Also, I actually agree that if the case on her is legit she'd have to be pretty derpy town when it comes to understanding how to bus/defend her buddies.

At the very least I consider it less scummy then 'If I was scum I'd be on Percy right now...never mind that I was on Percy yesterday and was on Percy for a period of time today.'

You advance a plan of lynching everyone who is suspect (including yourself) and I *agree to that plan* (and have continued to do so today oddly enough...)
I end the commentary by noting how I consider what you've done as less scummy than Empking.
It's almost as though I'm saying Empking is a better lynch than Mina.

Seriously. You don't just seem to suspect Empking more than me (although I left in the last line of that third quote for objectivity's sake). You seem to strongly feel that

I'm town

. Now you're saying you found my behaviour suspicious all along...but you were just sooooooo much more certain of Empking that you couldn't even

believe

that I'd be scum.

I don't think I ever indicated that I had a town read on you - I pretty clearly indicated i had more of a town read on you

than Empking who I wanted to lynch first

. You're intentionally taking commentary where I indicate that I'd rather lynch Emp before you and somehow suggesting that it means I consider you obvious town - which I do not and never said. None of your above quotes from me say I consider you town, they say I consider the things you are doing as townish and that is a big difference. Let's go back in time (one day prior to all those quotes) where I did up a suspect list to make IAI happy;

Can I have a list of your town reads Thor?

Elmo, furcolow, and jasonT are the obvious towns.
Sotty7, Benmage, Percy, and Locke, are town reads.
Mina and KaleiÐoscøpe are in a middle cloud wherein Mina is being felt more town probably because I find her playstyle amusing and Kscope is being felt more scum because he has embraced his hammer personality.

Why do you need this list of all my reads? (especially since half of them I'm pretty sure I've already explicitly stated in thread)

What;s that? Super town Mina is one of my bottom suspects? Empking was one of my chosen scum? The world has ended! Yes - you were more town than Empking. No, that does not mean I'm not allowed to want to lynch you.

Also, you never answered this:

My vote for Mina would pretty much be

either sheeping Locke's case

, or for the reasons I noted in 1128 - and is probably a vague and uncertain combination of both. If she's scum, huzzah for our side, if she's town she has to go because we'll be having this debate before every single lynch otherwise.

[1]Okay, maybe I can buy that you're willing to lynch me in spite of your D2 town read simply to remove a distraction or get information, although it's not an argument I'm a fan of. But what happened to this:

I've only ever played with Mina as town. She dithers as town. Unless she doesn't dither as scum (which I doubt) all that shows is dithering is a normal part of her meta and

is not the most optimal place to build a case and when I read Locke's case that's what I see - 'Mina didn't make solid commitments to reads'

.

[2] It seemed that you didn't like Locke's case much at the time, but now you're listing it as one of your primary reasons for voting me.

I'll blame Null for burying it. Okay, let's answer;

1. I never said I had a Day 2 town read on you - get over your misrepping self. (I'll add that even if I did have a Day 2 town read, it would have had to have been pretty strong for me not to be down with lynching you now anyway)
2. Yes, because *other* people like the case and we're running low on potential suspects. Do you remember when you were down with being lynched as a top potential suspect? I do.

Please explain why. I want lots and lots of words, beyond "sheeping Locke's case," which you never liked in the first place.

Write a case on me. Explain your motives and thought process behind your change of heart in longwinded detail, like I did for Percy, and why you think the towntells you'd noticed yesterday are no longer convincing. Share your opinions on the other players in the game as well. It doesn't have to be 3500 words long, but a couple of paragraphs would be nice.

You want all my reads again? Yeeesh.

Okay, my "motive" behind my "change of heart" is that first off - it wasn't a change of heart because even you were able to find a quote where I agreed with your lynch plan, thought it was good, and was okay with you being on it (along with other players I actually find *more* town than you, and that should have been pretty clear as well)

Your big hangup is, again, that you seem to think because I called you townish and wanted Emp lynched first that it somehow equates to me never wanting to see you lynched which is total poppycock. If we lynch you and you flip town I'm probably going to somehow magically be able to look at the list of players and figure out another one whom I consider a top suspect - THAT'S HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED. All of these thoughts have been explained by me before, but apparently because I can explain them in two sentences it somehow makes the thoughts harder to understand/difficult to find. So, I suppose, the only answer is to repeat them eight times in a giant post because...reasons.

So, in summation, I can't discuss my change of heart because it's very clear there wasn't one.

My opinions on the other players would be summed up thusly;

Sotty7, furcolow, and jasonT are the obvious towns. - furc and jason are cleared by interactions with the dead scum and if Sotty is scum I'll have egg all over my face because she is clearly scumhunting around and trying to get clear reads.

Null, Benmage, Percy, and IAI are my solid town reads (sorry Ben ) Null dropped down a level from earlier because Elmo's "aw shucks, giving up" attitude looked like scum with a busted team who didn't want to play anymore. However Null's replace in was not very scumlike, as I noted earlier, and his positions helped elevate Sotty into obv. town status because the odds of this slot being scum are much higher than her and this slot just attacked her. Ben and IAI are on there for the way they voted BS, and Percy has just felt town throughout to me. Percy and Null are probably the pair I'd be most willing to lynch from this level (apparently I have to say that because otherwise I'll have changes of heart I'll have to explain)

KaleiÐoscøpe is probably who I'd try to lynch next, but I honestly feel terrible about the read and he's mostly there just for having a playstyle I find sort of annoying and a bit for the tunnel focus on Percy after even Benmage realized that wasn't an optimal lynch (and if Benmage can untunnel than everyone else should be able to)

Mina is who I want lynched.

Maybe it's just that I'm more prone to town reads than scum reads. But normally, when I have a gut town read on someone, it stays even after my top suspect is lynched, although I might have doubts. And if I change my mind, I can usually explain what caused the change.

Thank you for applying your meta to me I guess? This doesn't follow - you don't play like furc does - does that automatically make furc scum every game? Also, this all stems from a false belief that I called you town as opposed to calling for an Emp lynch over a you lynch.

Instead, you've gone from steadfastly defending me and seeming passionately against my lynch, to trying to egg people onto my wagon.

I'm not sure I'd call it passionate (though that is romantic and heroic sounding for me ) - but yes, I have done exactly this.

Worse, you're not even making a case for my guilt, just trying to tempt them by saying, "Hey, she's a suspect, and we have aaaaaaaaall the lynches we need, so why think it through?" And part of your argument is that you and Sotty are my only two defenders, when

you and Sotty are half of the players voting for me right now

. (In all fairness, though, IAI and Kscope wouldn't be sorry to see me gone...at least, if they were still reading the game. <_<)

IAI is really unlikely town. We can do KScope after or before me, and we *do* have aaaaaaaall the lynches we need. Town doesn't need to engage real scumhunting again until we're down to the last day with MYLO and *TWO TOWN LYNCHES AVAILABLE* That's super awesome easy mode for town, and *that's* when town needs to pay attention. Right now town needs to deal with the chaff that could make that mylo dangerous. The case for your guilt is that it fits that you could be scum and that lots of players here don't consider you very obvious town - and that's ALL the case that is needed at this stage. If you are town you should recognize that you are a mylo liability and endorse your coming death because there is no way scum will NK you.

And you're saying that if I flip town, you'd be totally okay with being lynched yourself, even though you weren't even on my original lynch list. (In all fairness, that's not something I'd expect to hear from scum.) You have no clue who the last scum is, so hey, let other players make the decisions in endgame!

Thor, be honest. Are you doing the same thing you did in

A Clash of Kings

Mafia, in which you checked out at the end and stopped wanting to think things through, yes or no?

Already covered this - but, yeah, probably. The thing is that it's pretty clear that we are in a situation where town should just zip through some lynches and not wear itself out. As for me being on the potential lynch list - I'm saying that because of how hot Sotty is about me. If I'm in her top two than I'm probably a liability and should go, and frankly I think we're within 1-2 lynches of a win anyway.

Look, I understand that the town's situation is really good, that I'm a decent lynch by PoE, that Locke's case almost made me cry, and that mislynching me wouldn't be the end of the world. But simply out of respect to me, can you try to give a Smurf right now?

You are explaining my case on you right now while still acting like my case is unreasonable. Why is that? Either you should understand my logic, or you should find it bad, but if you find it bad how can you disagree with it here? I do give a Smurf, and that's why you need to be lynched.

I know you're really hoping that this game will end with my death, so you'd rather save your breath. But I'm putting a ton of work into this game. At least do me the courtesy of making a suspect list, taking a stand on every player in the game, thinking things through critically, and writing an actual case on me. Sotty and Percy did me that courtesy. Furthermore, if you're town, then your play today is guaranteeing that the town won't win until at least Day Four, because by being so blasé, you're serving yourself up on a silver platter as a mislynch. And if the killer is someone unlikely like I am Innocent, your lynch might make the difference between a win and a loss.

Yes, a big delay until Day 4...when town will still have 2 lynches to use on Day 5 with only *four suspects available*. On Day 5, town could flip some coins and still win half the time - and that's not counting the four lynches leading into the affair. And if town doesn't win until Day 4...so what? This is really just starting to look more like scum angling of 'don't lynch me

juuust

yet' and I am not getting happy-day town vibes from it. Your arguement is that we shouldn't lynch you because we might win a day earlier? Big whoop.

Also, if you're willing to get lynched, think of it this way. Today is your last chance to get all your reads out! Why not make the effort?

My reads, such as they were, were already out there. I don't need a wall to make them.

Yesterday, I wouldn't have even considered lynching you. I probably trusted you as much as (or even more than) jason on gut. Now I'm almost considering moving you to my top tier, simply because of how disinterested you seem.

Oh noes, you thought I was town and now you want to lynch me. Terrible! Wait, what was your issue with me again?

Wooosh, there, done. I basically said what I've already said earlier in the game but I used more words - hope that helps someone.