The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[Furry]

I think it might be worth a massclaim here. We are really not able to figure out what peoples roles are on flips, so any attempt to leave behind a crumb is completely lost at this point. Also given the same thing, its going to be better to get scum to claim since they are much easier countered or trapped since they have no clue what has flipped themselves.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Furry re 1020

– Any reason why you unvoted to move to Thor when CES’s claim reduces the chances that either he or Hacker are scum by 0%? I’ll say it till I’m blue in the face – despite Thor’s lethargic play his position at the end of Day 1 means he’s VERY unlikely to be scum. I’d consider voting one of my otherwise solid Town reads over him if their vote positioning looked anything but solid.

Yeah this meshes quite nicely with my page 5 scumbuddies read.
Camn's quote was very scummy, but Thor only disagrees with it, instead of calling it scummy. Hmmhah.

If you guys are the last 2 scum you can just surrender now, it's cool.

So you plan to ignore the other 35 or so pages of play, interactions and reads because you’ve tagged the last scum-buddies after 5 pages?

Really? Are you trying to call this a scumtell?

It’s more valid a tell than CES’s “To Good to be Alive” tell he’s been running with. An unconscious omission coming from scum is a tell, BTW.

Buddying? I had been voting for him and I say he does something scummy, but because I said that it's not a bussing comment it's considered buddying? Why would scum buddy with someone only to kill him off?

First off the buddying play in question was Day 1 and LMP got killed N3. There is plenty of scum reason to buddy someone early on but then eliminating them later. Like, perhaps, LMP was a pretty solid Town player or perhaps you decided to go PR hunting. Why don’t you tell us why you did kill him.

And you’re backing up my suggestion right here … you were voting for LMP and say he is doing something scummy but pronounce him Town if SquareOb flips scum. I don’t see much Town motivation to be voting for someone, continue to say they are scummy but clear them solely because their vote doesn’t ‘look like a bus’.

Also thanks for not even addressing your horrible 180 on SquareOb.

Anyone see any reason not to vote for Hacker at this juncture?

If I were scum, I would have killed Spyrex night 1. He breadcrumbed cop pretty well on day 1. That's why I followed him on D2.

Self-meta is tech. But it is funny that you see Cop in Spyrex’s quote. I see that as a classic Spyrex “If I was a Vig” (you know, the people who DEFINITELY carry a gun?) rhetoric statements.

@CES –

You know what I see in 1006? Plenty of ‘Player X is good enough to be fooling people but I see through it’ and not much at all of ‘Player X is scum because of Y and Z’. Keep on keeping on with your Appeals to Proficency varient you are going for there.

Now this is why I call scum-posting. Non-committally pushing accusations that have been shown to be wrong. Scum have Daytalk!

If I was being non-commital I guess I wouldn’t be voting for Hacker, would I? Poor accusation there.

Also, what about Scum having Day-talk automatically eliminates scum from making bad posts like the one I highlighted? Here’s a hint – nothing. I also note that you don’t address that fact that Hacker pointed out two behaviors in Feysal that are indication of scum behavior but didn’t follow-up or challenge him at all. That’s classic soft-distancing between scum.

Do you really think I'd post something like that in-thread? Besides, scum have daytalk.

Nice exercise in WIFOM .. You'd never do that if I were scum.

Here's another question - if scum Daytalk was so powerful why did Square's flavor claim suck so badly? No-one has explained how that little fact meshes with scum Daytalk being the cure-all for in-thread slips like coaching and what-not.

Not alignment confirmed.

So your claim has no bearing on your alignment and we should just go by you in-thread behaviour, correct?

[camn]

Squares claim was obviously poorly coached.
Daytalk doesn't prohibit bad play... it just prohibits TRUE in-thread coaching.
THat is scum sending a message to each other in thread? That tell is blown with daytalk.

Scum NOT send each other messages.. or maybe sending each other bad messages in their QT? still totally possible.

Coaching is not a tell in this game.

[Furry]

@Furry re 1020

– Any reason why you unvoted to move to Thor when CES’s claim reduces the chances that either he or Hacker are scum by 0%? I’ll say it till I’m blue in the face – despite Thor’s lethargic play his position at the end of Day 1 means he’s VERY unlikely to be scum. I’d consider voting one of my otherwise solid Town reads over him if their vote positioning looked anything but solid.

Depending on a few things that we cant confirm until post game, it actually could. Worth a try in this though:

@HH and CES - Who pushed for the HH addition to the group?

If I were scum, I would have killed Spyrex night 1. He breadcrumbed cop pretty well on day 1. That's why I followed him on D2.

Self-meta is tech. But it is funny that you see Cop in Spyrex’s quote. I see that as a classic Spyrex “If I was a Vig” (you know, the people who DEFINITELY carry a gun?) rhetoric statements.

Actually, seeing cop there really shocks me. Remember what I just said about not knowing what roles are? The only way I think that he can know what Spys role was is if he was a rolecop type role or scum track/watch role.

Im completely fine with lynching HH, but just parts of Thors play clash with the "placement" that you are talking about. More subtle blocks for partners.

unvote
Vote HH

Tomorrow a massclaim needs to happen if not today. We already have over a third of the game claimed at this point.

[camn]

So.. looking through Apathy's posts.. this is the only reference I see to CES.

I have yet to read what happened on the last page. If this was not covered, then someone still needs to explain the case on CES, as I did not get it prior to my last posts.

I'm also not getting this

"CES is scum"

thing.

It seems to me that Apathy is relatively open to the CES-As-Town idea. . . . def not much suspicion voiced there. I wonder if they WERE suspicious of their partner..

Question to CES

: when you first replaced into this game.. did you think Apathy might be scum? If so (or if not), did Apathy do or say anything in your QT to convince you otherwise?

ALso... what made you pick HackerHuck to join your group?
ALSOALSO... were you intentionally avoiding any mention of Apathy or Hacker in this game so far? Or is it coincidence that they are barely mentioned?

@ Hacker

It looks like you were rather suspicious Day 1 of Apathy.. but then let up a little bit day 2. Is that accurate? And if so, is it because of something he said to you overnight?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I eagerly await CES and Hacker’s responses to camn’s 1029.

Furry

– I will support a mass-claim at this juncture if only to help with POE down the line.

Daytalk doesn't prohibit bad play... it just prohibits TRUE in-thread coaching.

I guess I’m not explaining my point clearly enough … Hacker’s post being labelled as coaching doesn’t mean it is coaching. It is scummy on its face Daytalk or not for the because Hacker looks like he was soft-distancing Feysal.

He’s pointing out directly scummy behavior from Feysal without any actual accusation or followup. If Feysal flips scum later he can point to that and say ‘Look, I was suspicious of him’ but didn’t press it at all.

Look at his reasoning on his Day 2 vote he’s provided. It isn’t that Feysal was already on his radar and thus Spyrex’s push was something he could follow. It was the he read Spyrex as Cop and thus followed him. The manner in which Hacker presents suggests that he would have followed Spyrex regardless of whether Spyrex’s target was a Town read or not.

I don't see anything but distancing here.

Im completely fine with lynching HH, but just parts of Thors play clash with the "placement" that you are talking about. More subtle blocks for partners.

I agree that Thor’s play on its face seems somewhat inconsistent with a Town role. I can’t, however, ignore my personal experience with Thor as both scum and Town.

In ReBoot Mafia Thor was scum who was very willing to bus his partners Day 1 (his Godfather role in particular) when their play was not up-to-snuff. His defense of Square sits in stark contrast to that.

In Clash of Kings Mafia Thor was made more-or-less confirmed Town by his Daykill on scum on Day 3 (IIRC, didn’t re-check). After that he pretty much coasted into the background and was not as energetic as I expected from semi-confirmed Town, even in endgame.

Lastly I know he’s not stupid and I can’t envision he would end the day with his vote parked with only a scum-buddy on another player.

The combination of these three things makes it fairly impossible for me to corrupt my Town read on Thor. If I’m being stubbornly short-sighted it would not be the first time.

[chesskid3]

I really don't want to read 35 more pages. I will try to do some number per day, but this week SUCKS.

[Thor665]

If Thor is the play today, I am totally cool with that.

Why - specifically what is your case on me? Is it just that read through page five stuff?

@Furry - same basic question, specifically what parts of my play do you feel sells me as obvious partner? Is it just that I decided to blatantly protect two buddies back to back or something? What is the reasoning?

In Clash of Kings Mafia Thor was made more-or-less confirmed Town by his Daykill on scum on Day 3 (IIRC, didn’t re-check). After that he pretty much coasted into the background and was not as energetic as I expected from semi-confirmed Town, even in endgame.

I actually think I was energetic...I just sort of argued town out of scum lynches twice.

What are your thoughts on the LMP lynch? That seems unoptimal for scum at this stage of the game because LMP actually had some mud on him. I'm actually dithering into a Mina-esque WIFOM soup on that thought and I'd like your thoughts. LMP's last batch of posts was pretty out there (including speculation based on flavor text) and he wasn't even on anyone that much besides leading the Twomz wagon and sort of vaguely grunting in disagreement to the Ap lynch. I just can't puzzle out the win from their side. Thoughts?

Plus, the last line of your defense of me (grounded in logic though it seems) is a little odd for the short sighted thing. Theoretically you should either buy into the meta you have on me or not, why the touch of uncertainty at the end after mentioning twice how stubborn you hold the belief?

[HackerHuck]

Re: Neighbour questions-
From what I read, CES first suggested Slaxx because he was active, and he didn't have a read on him. Katsuki then suggested me as an alternative for those same reasons and because Slaxx had been recently prodded. Kastuki didn't really say anything to make me think that he was town, but I figured that I could get a better read out of him as a neighbour.

Also thanks for not even addressing your horrible 180 on SquareOb.

Anyone see any reason not to vote for Hacker at this juncture?

If I were scum, I would have killed Spyrex night 1. He breadcrumbed cop pretty well on day 1. That's why I followed him on D2.

Self-meta is tech. But it is funny that you see Cop in Spyrex’s quote. I see that as a classic Spyrex “If I was a Vig” (you know, the people who DEFINITELY carry a gun?) rhetoric statements.

I'd like you to show me how I made a 180 on Square? At what point did I ever consider him town?
I guess maybe you're a little embarrassed that you missed the cop-tell and lost a scumpartner. Maybe if I cut off the bit of the quote that you focused on, it would be more apparent.

Spyrex isn't making any sense. If there's a way to confirm the BP townie without outing another power role, this chucklehead would like to hear it.

I never, ever said there wouldn't be other pieces for it to be done.

So what kind of power role would have to be outed to clear a BP townie? I would guess a cop or possibly a watcher. I was a little surprised when he flipped tracker, since I don't see how that role could clear anyone.
So now you've managed to ignore your previous votecount 'analysis' (although it did call everyone but Thor scummy) and now based on your outstanding analysis of yesterday (I'm scummy for not voting Twomz), you've fallen into confirmation bias and won't look at any evidence contradicting your case. Need I remind you of Lost mafia, where your stubborn insistence on using only vote-count analysis got me mislynched? I think you're trying to pick me out as the easy lynch today, because you know you'll get a couple of people to sheep you and Thad has already shown some interest in killing me.

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

[chesskid3]

I like my first 5 pages reads. Sure maybe it's more gut than other cases, but that tends to be quite accurate, btw.

[Thor665]

I like my first 5 pages reads. Sure maybe it's more gut than other cases, but that tends to be quite accurate, btw.

I would wager probably no more accurate than random percentage chance dictates - that said, gut still comes from somewhere. What things twigged your gut? Is it only what you've already said about me?

The extent of your case is - I was on the dana wagon and that I didn't call camm on something "scummy" she said and you never even responded to me when I replied to that comment and said I didn't consider it scummy. Your case isn't a case, it's a coin toss with a lopsided coin and you're betting on the heavy half being upright.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It’s more valid a tell than CES’s “To Good to be Alive” tell he’s been running with. An unconscious omission coming from scum is a tell, BTW.

I haven't been running with that tell. And it's not an omission; it was just implied. That's how I write.

@CES – You know what I see in 1006? Plenty of ‘Player X is good enough to be fooling people but I see through it’ and not much at all of ‘Player X is scum because of Y and Z’. Keep on keeping on with your Appeals to Proficency varient you are going for there.

It's almost as if the content of that post was determined by what I was responding to.

If I was being non-commital I guess I wouldn’t be voting for Hacker, would I? Poor accusation there.

Non-commital can be local as well as global. You wouldn't want to be associated with a discredited accusation, no?

Also, what about Scum having Day-talk automatically eliminates scum from making bad posts like the one I highlighted? Here’s a hint – nothing. I also note that you don’t address that fact that Hacker pointed out two behaviors in Feysal that are indication of scum behavior but didn’t follow-up or challenge him at all. That’s classic soft-distancing between scum.

I was clearly talking about your "coaching" comment here. And I haven't addressed lots of boring stuff. Don't pretend this is special.

Nice exercise in WIFOM .. You'd never do that if I were scum.

Except I'd never expect anyone to think me town over it (nor would anyone else; there's an obvious alignment-neutral explanation for that post). There's literally no scum benefit for it.

Here's another question - if scum Daytalk was so powerful why did Square's flavor claim suck so badly? No-one has explained how that little fact meshes with scum Daytalk being the cure-all for in-thread slips like coaching and what-not.

Probably because it's hard to come up with a good justification for unnightkillability. And you don't accidentally coach.

So your claim has no bearing on your alignment and we should just go by you in-thread behaviour, correct?

Well, you should also go by my in-qt behaviour, but yeah, pretty much.

@HH and CES - Who pushed for the HH addition to the group?

Katsuki suggested HH.

hen you first replaced into this game.. did you think Apathy might be scum? If so (or if not), did Apathy do or say anything in your QT to convince you otherwise?

I've never been suspicious of apathy. I did get a slight pro-town read from her qt posts.

ALso... what made you pick HackerHuck to join your group?

We went for someone who was active, not too high profile and whom we could hopefully get a read on through the qt.

ALSOALSO... were you intentionally avoiding any mention of Apathy or Hacker in this game so far? Or is it coincidence that they are barely mentioned?

It's partially coincidence, but it certainly played a part. Not saying anything is after all the easiest way to not say anything dishonest or misleading while not giving away any role information.

I was a little surprised when he flipped tracker, since I don't see how that role could clear anyone.

Where do you get tracker from?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's almost as if the content of that post was determined by what I was responding to.

Yes because the content of your posts MUST be driven by everyone else and not yourself

I was clearly talking about your "coaching" comment here. And I haven't addressed lots of boring stuff. Don't pretend this is special.

To be accurate my accusations against Hacker re: Feysal were not predicated on coaching but soft distancing. I’m sorry if trying to pry game relevant information from you qualifies as ‘boring’.

Probably because it's hard to come up with a good justification for unnightkillability.

Then why wouldn’t he be Daytalked into making a claim that didn’t involve claiming a BP role?

I'd like you to show me how I made a 180 on Square? At what point did I ever consider him town?
I guess maybe you're a little embarrassed that you missed the cop-tell and lost a scumpartner. Maybe if I cut off the bit of the quote that you focused on, it would be more apparent.

Your wish is my command –

The data wagon was a weak day-1 wagon that built a lot of steam without a lot of content. There's probably scum there (waiting for the 'no duh' comment) and

I don't see how Alamaster can honestly think that Square had inside info from it.

This is the start of multiple posts where you question how anyone could suggest SquareOb had inside information. You ask AGM and Furry both. No suggestion that SquareOb is scum but being attacked incorrectly. Your only reference is that he doesn’t have inside information.

I'm not done with Bowser, but I'm in agreement that Square's recent comments about Thad/Data are possible scumslips. UNVOTE: Boswer/Untrod
VOTE: Square Obscure

Suddenly SquareOb is scum for comments he made, but only recently. You didn’t question him in any regard before this. You didn’t even point out the comments that we possible scum-slips. Just a reluctant (see the phrase ‘I’m not done with Bowser’) hop onto Square. If that’s not a whip-saw style reversal I don’t know what is.

So now you've managed to ignore your previous votecount 'analysis' (although it did call everyone but Thor scummy) and now based on your outstanding analysis of yesterday (I'm scummy for not voting Twomz), you've fallen into confirmation bias and won't look at any evidence contradicting your case.

What? I’m ignoring my previous VC Analysis? Did you read the thread to see that I updated it for the new flip information? Are you suggesting that I shouldn’t be able to revise my conclusions as new data is provided?

If you have issue with my Day 3 VC analysis let’s discuss. You misrep why I listed you as suspicious in 1000. It wasn’t for not voting Twomz but for avoiding EVERY major wagon of the Day.

Need I remind you of Lost mafia, where your stubborn insistence on using only vote-count analysis got me mislynched? I think you're trying to pick me out as the easy lynch today, because you know you'll get a couple of people to sheep you and Thad has already shown some interest in killing me.

Need I remind you of Lost Mafia? I didn’t do a VC analysis until Day 2 so your insisitence that it got you mislynched Day 1 is a complete fabrication. What got you mislynched was your scummy following of Obv-Lyncher Vezok. How, as a Town Cop you thought for an instant Vezok’s DayCop claim was credible AT ALL is a mystery to me. If you remember I said that there was 1 scum in yourself, BloodCovenant and TheLonging / AGar. I was right. You just got gambit hammered by Chess before you could claim.

I love that subtle AtE in the second sentence. ‘Woe is me, I’m an easy lynch’. I’m picking you out because I think you are scum. The fact that you are an easy lynch based on your play is a simple side effect.

I actually think I was energetic...I just sort of argued town out of scum lynches twice.

I’d suggest that wasn’t the case. Mina was energetic. You weren’t RichardG but I would not say you were energetic. I specifically remember calling out Cow and yourself for not doing more to lead the Town as confirmed / nigh-confirmed Town players. And I was scum …

What are your thoughts on the LMP lynch? That seems unoptimal for scum at this stage of the game because LMP actually had some mud on him. I'm actually dithering into a Mina-esque WIFOM soup on that thought and I'd like your thoughts. LMP's last batch of posts was pretty out there (including speculation based on flavor text) and he wasn't even on anyone that much besides leading the Twomz wagon and sort of vaguely grunting in disagreement to the Ap lynch. I just can't puzzle out the win from their side. Thoughts?

I’m going to assume you mean LMP’s Nightkill for purposes of my response. I had LMP as a solid Town read so I’m not very happy about his death. Do you really think he ‘had some mud on him’? I don’t see that.

Plus, the last line of your defense of me (grounded in logic though it seems) is a little odd for the short sighted thing. Theoretically you should either buy into the meta you have on me or not, why the touch of uncertainty at the end after mentioning twice how stubborn you hold the belief?

Parse it however you wish. I’m not one to run solely with Meta as the lone reason for clearing / damning someone. My personal experience with you indicates my Town read is correct but without other corroboration (in this case the VC info) I wouldn’t rely on it to the extent I am in your case. In this case I am downplaying things I have seen in your ISO that I would normally consider questionable due to Meta and VC evidence. I’m stubbornm (in a Prideful way) because I’m not personally willing to concede that you would be fooling me twice in rapid succession with two very disparate play-styles.

[Thor665]

I’m going to assume you mean LMP’s Nightkill for purposes of my response. I had LMP as a solid Town read so I’m not very happy about his death. Do you really think he ‘had some mud on him’? I don’t see that.

No, I most assuredly mean his lynch.

I do think he had more mud than some of my other town reads, yes. As sort of a follow up - what's your take on Slaxx/chesskid? I'm not sure I'm clear where you stand on him.

@The surviving neighbors - what thoughts/ideas was ApCup tossing around in the QT? I'd like a brief synopsis and whoever does it can be corrected by the other player if they think he missed/left out something.

[ThAdmiral]

I think it might be worth a massclaim here. We are really not able to figure out what peoples roles are on flips, so any attempt to leave behind a crumb is completely lost at this point. Also given the same thing, its going to be better to get scum to claim since they are much easier countered or trapped since they have no clue what has flipped themselves.

I agree with a mass claim. I feel it could help at this point.

In ReBoot Mafia Thor was scum who was very willing to bus his partners Day 1 (his Godfather role in particular) when their play was not up-to-snuff. His defense of Square sits in stark contrast to that.

In Clash of Kings Mafia Thor was made more-or-less confirmed Town by his Daykill on scum on Day 3 (IIRC, didn’t re-check). After that he pretty much coasted into the background and was not as energetic as I expected from semi-confirmed Town, even in endgame.

I can confirm that I played in a game recently with mafia thor, and he bussed his only partner day one pretty heavily. He basically lead the charge and was then thought of as town for the majority of the rest of the game.

@The surviving neighbors - what thoughts/ideas was ApCup tossing around in the QT? I'd like a brief synopsis and whoever does it can be corrected by the other player if they think he missed/left out something.

Seconded.

[Furry]

I think it might be worth a massclaim here. We are really not able to figure out what peoples roles are on flips, so any attempt to leave behind a crumb is completely lost at this point. Also given the same thing, its going to be better to get scum to claim since they are much easier countered or trapped since they have no clue what has flipped themselves.

I agree with a mass claim. I feel it could help at this point.

I think at least HH should claim, and we can go from there. There just looks like a whole lot of information will be lost when people die since we cant salvage anything from flips to look back to.

I support a complete massclaim at this point though.

[camn]

Agree with massclaim

[chesskid3]

ya no objections

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@The surviving neighbors - what thoughts/ideas was ApCup tossing around in the QT? I'd like a brief synopsis and whoever does it can be corrected by the other player if they think he missed/left out something.

N1: Suspicion of dana, N2: town read on LMP, MoI is scum (SO interaction, posturing, gut), N3: vague anti-Thor and Furry statement and she didn't like the scum doc-vigilante link thing.

Mass claim is fine by me.

[HackerHuck]

I'll go ahead and claim. I'm just a standard SOB operative. My backstory is that I'm a little crazy and untrusting of people after my true love was savagely killed and I took revenge. I'm one bad-ass chick, but I'm looking to get off of Liten ASAP. My flavour is kind of funny considering that I was recruited into the love triangle.

If we're doing popcorn, I want Camn to claim next.

[camn]

I am an SOB operative. An Electonics Operative, flavor-wise. Other than my electronics skills, I have no special powers...

Cogito ero-- gogogogo

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I have no powers beyond my neighborness.

Furry, go.

P.S. camn, care to explain your "neighbors should claim"-stance now?

[Furry]

Im the Former Govenor of Liten, Colonist which means vanilla. Flavor is based to a large extent on aftermath of the first game where I was scum that played to a draw. Flavor is also why I didnt want to lynch Twomz, I was pretty sure I was a PR when looking at my role up until the line that said vanilla, his reaction made sense to me as VT.

Chess-Slaxx go.

[chesskid3]

SoB operative/VT Due to my parents naming me Chuck Norris, I basically got forced into becoming a marine (apparently I'm stupid?), but really good at war. But not good enough to have any powers :/

Thor, go.

[SaintKerrigan]

Probably should have told you guys this earlier, but I'm pretty much going to be incommunicado for the duration of finals week. I'll get a vote count in when I can, but I haven't the time to write any flavor.

On the bright side, after finals week, I'll have a lot more time to devote to flavor catch-up!

Also, I really hate whatever technical difficulty it is that's fucking MS up the arse these days...