[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

Antihero · Post Post #2200 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:33 am

Vengeful mafia is a broken role. I don't see why you should punish town for lynching scum.

Antihero · Post Post #2201 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:38 am

How about this emp?

Empking's Smith

2 Mafia

2 Maniacs (mafia that kill w/ knives)

1 Bodyguard (protects from Maniacs) OR Bladesmith (detects Maniacs and bodyguard)
1 Doc (protects from Mafia) OR Gunsmith (detects mafia and cop)
3 Townies

Empking · Post Post #2202 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:44 am

It'd only be a punishment if it was better of the town to lynch town than scum and it clearly isn't. Its not a punishment its a built in part of set up.

Also 2 Vengeful Goons + 5 Townies (Nightless) is the same as Empking's No Lynching Town. ENLT clearly doesn't punish the town. Also, the two of us must have completely different definitions of "broken".

Preview: Its a swingy clearly and it strikes me as possibly unfair to one group if they draw a Smith and the other draws a Doc. Working on the same principles though you could get this:

Empking's Smith v.3

2 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer + Roleblocker

1 Gunsmith OR Bladesmith
1 Gunsmith OR Doc
4 Townies

Antihero · Post Post #2203 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:49 pm

My definition of a broken role is a role that makes the game less fair or enjoyable.

I like the idea of an open game with a bunch of smiths, but it seems like mafia would be at a disadvantage if 2 gunsmiths were chosen.

Empking · Post Post #2204 (ISO) » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:24 am

Antihero wrote:My definition of a broken role is a role that makes the game less fair or enjoyable.

I like the idea of an open game with a bunch of smiths, but it seems like mafia would be at a disadvantage if 2 gunsmiths were chosen.

If two gunsmiths are chosen then they have to be wary about claiming because there's a chance of a faslse guilty.

Antihero · Post Post #2205 (ISO) » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:57 am

Oh, I see. Gunsmiths get positives on other gunsmiths.

brokenscraps · Post Post #2206 (ISO) » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:28 am

Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).

gandalf5166 · Post Post #2207 (ISO) » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:12 am

I see a LOT of WIFOM going into that game. I like it.

bv310 · Post Post #2208 (ISO) » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:25 am

brokenscraps wrote:
Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).

Nominate

I really like this setup.

Powerrox93 · Post Post #2209 (ISO) » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:23 am

bv310 wrote:
brokenscraps wrote:
Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).

Nominate

I really like this setup.

Seconded

gandalf5166 · Post Post #2210 (ISO) » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:24 am

Thirded

hitogoroshi · Post Post #2211 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:02 pm

brokenscraps wrote:
Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).

What? Unless Cult also has a NK, it's 1/13, 2/12, 3/11.

Also personally I think it'd be a bit un-fun of a setup. With no associative tells, D1 is basicially an RVS, and Days 2 and 3 are just a giant WIFOM pit.

drmyshottyizsik · Post Post #2212 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:05 pm

brokenscraps wrote:
Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).

sounds kinda similar to a game I posted here a while back I love the idea of a good cult game.

N'th

gandalf5166 · Post Post #2213 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:45 pm

hitogoroshi wrote:
brokenscraps wrote:
Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).
What? Unless Cult also has a NK, it's 1/13, 2/12, 3/11.

Also personally I think it'd be a bit un-fun of a setup. With no associative tells, D1 is basicially an RVS, and Days 2 and 3 are just a giant WIFOM pit.

You're forgetting that someone dies ever time a lynch happens. >.>

Herodotus · Post Post #2214 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:10 pm

hitogoroshi wrote:With no associative tells, D1 is basicially an RVS

I disagree with this. People act differently depending on their role, and not only regarding their partners.
Otherwise Serial Killers would be much harder to find.

Crazy · Post Post #2215 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:59 pm

gandalf wrote:You're forgetting that someone dies ever time a lynch happens. >.>

No, I believe he has it right.

On Day 1, there will be 1 cultist out of 13 players. On Day 2, there will be 2 cultists out of 12 players. On Day 3, it will be 3/11.

So chances of cult winning are 12/13 * 10/12 * 9/11, which gives about 63% chance of the cult winning, which I think is a better percentage than the 48% that brokenscraps calculated.

My biggest concern is Day 1. Looking for 1 specific person out of 13 with very little to go on doesn't sound very fun to me, sorry. I think this setup might be better if it could be rebalanced with a Night Start.

drmyshottyizsik · Post Post #2216 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:01 pm

isn't someone lynched each day, and then converted at night?

Crazy · Post Post #2217 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:07 pm

drmyshottyizsik wrote:isn't someone lynched each day, and then converted at night?

That's what I thought. One person dies during the day (by lynch) but nobody dies during the night because there's a conversion instead, right?

drmyshottyizsik · Post Post #2218 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Slaxx · Post Post #2219 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:24 pm

Okay, so how about:

Gunsmith
Doc
5 VTs
2 Goons

Each goon can choose to "throw away his/her gun" at the start of the game. A goon without a gun cannot make a kill, but also appears innocent to the gunsmith. A goon with a gun can kill but appears guilty to the gunsmith. If the doc is overpowered, a Bodyguard who shows up positive on GS investigation and dies in place of target could be used instead. Thoughts?

Crazy · Post Post #2220 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:26 pm

I've been running some numbers here - the EV for a Night Start game where the cult leader recruits someone on Night 0. I've been calculating it for the cult only needing 2 mislynches to win the game - since a Night Start disadvantages the cult, it would take quite a large game in order to make a 3-mislynch win condition balanced here.

1 Cult Leader
12 Townies

11/13 * 9/12 = 99/156 = 63.5% chance of scum win.

1 Cult Leader
11 Townies

10/12 * 8/11 = 80/132 = 60.6% chance of scum win

1 Cult Leader
10 Townies

9/11 * 7/10 = 63/110 = 57.3% chance of scum win

1 Cult Leader
9 Townies

8/10 * 6/9 = 48/90 = 53.3% chance of scum win

1 Cult Leader
8 Townies

7/9 * 5/8 = 35/72 = 48.6% chance of scum win

1 Cult Leader
7 Townies

6/8 * 4/7 = 24/56 = 42.9% chance of scum win

1:9, 1:10, and 1:11 all seem like decent odds to me.

Mr. Flay · Post Post #2221 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:28 pm

Crazy wrote:My biggest concern is Day 1. Looking for 1 specific person out of 13 with very little to go on doesn't sound very fun to me, sorry. I think this setup might be better if it could be rebalanced with a Night Start.

Also, how much would it suck to be a Love Cult leader that dies D1? Night 0 Start seems the way to go...

11/13 * 9/12 * 7/11 is pretty rough on cult though; 40%? Upping the players to 16+NS seems to bring it to a dead even 50%, if I can do the math right.

Town might be advantaged by No Lynching for a day or three though, to increase scum's percentage before they start shooting. Larger games may offset that?

gandalf5166 · Post Post #2222 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:40 pm

Slaxx wrote:Okay, so how about:

Gunsmith
Doc
5 VTs
2 Goons

Each goon can choose to "throw away his/her gun" at the start of the game. A goon without a gun cannot make a kill, but also appears innocent to the gunsmith. A goon with a gun can kill but appears guilty to the gunsmith. If the doc is overpowered, a Bodyguard who shows up positive on GS investigation and dies in place of target could be used instead. Thoughts?

When goons flipped, would it say whether they had a gun or not?

Slaxx · Post Post #2223 (ISO) » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:52 pm

gandalf5166 wrote:
Slaxx wrote:Okay, so how about:

Gunsmith
Doc
5 VTs
2 Goons

Each goon can choose to "throw away his/her gun" at the start of the game. A goon without a gun cannot make a kill, but also appears innocent to the gunsmith. A goon with a gun can kill but appears guilty to the gunsmith. If the doc is overpowered, a Bodyguard who shows up positive on GS investigation and dies in place of target could be used instead. Thoughts?
When goons flipped, would it say whether they had a gun or not?

I thought about that already. I was thinking that possession of a gun would be confirmed with the flip.

brokenscraps · Post Post #2224 (ISO) » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:41 pm

The idea was that cult would have a night kill, I was undecided on whether it would or wouldn't and forgot to put it in. I think night start is a much better idea than what I had though which means night kill should probably be cut out as it would take much larger numbers to balance.

Flays numbers seem to work, so it'd be:

1 Love Cult Leader
15 Vanilla Townies

Night start
3 town lynches = town lose/cult win, 1 cult lynch = town win/cult lose
Cult must recruit each night, if no choice is sent there will be a random choice
There must be a lynch each day, if no majority is reached before deadline then the player with the most votes (and who reached that position first in the event of ties) is lynched