American Gods Mafia - Game over

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Dear god this wagon is stupid.

[Ghostlin]

Since my first question on this post got missed I'm adding a question now.
What did you see from GG that lead you to make the comment?

GG had been asking a few useful question and pushing in a more focused, town like direction than just Chess. Case in point: in SoS, Chess spent most of the latter half of Day 1 riding MoI. He didn't ask questions, he didn't have short reasoned statements...he just rode MoI. GG seems right to me; in a way Chess didn't alone. Now granted, it wasn't the height of maturity during the argument with you and him, and I've thought about deelecting him to avoid you and him having a fight, but it seems everyone who's up for election wants both of you to go.

As a sidenote, I don't see either of you scummy as of right now, reading your ISOs and all. I think the entire thing is a waste.

What about Ythill did you see he was handling himself well, actively scumhunting and keeping pressure? As much as I don't look at the iso's list the tl'rd was interesting, not anything else mentioned. hmmmm I maybe wrong about my first impression of ghost, UGH that vote on OGML really goes back to the WTF moment.

I explain OGML below. There's no other explaination for it, sorry.

Ythill: Page 1 was a plan on how to win this game. He had already thought about things I hadn't considered and had planned incredibly ahead. Granted, Large Themes are still new to me and I'm struggling with them, and I'd take any advice, but to find someone so together was heartening, and he was in the thick, asking questions. It was nice to know that from page 1 things were being taken care of. I just worried when he called me out as biggest scum and didn't vote me that maybe he didn't have that conviction after all.

@Ghost: Why did you switch to OGML? Is he scummier then SGR in your book? Why if you find OGML scummy did you not say anything about him before?

You know where I said in my post that I didn't really remember reading OMGL? That wasn't hyperbole. I couldn't remember anything he posted.

This usually means one of three things with me:
1) Your analysis is a little dry and I just don't remember you, but you've got good points.
2) You've not said anything of interest or much at all. (This is usually an indication you want to fly low under the radar.)
3) I'm in slight skim mode when I'm reading you. There are parts of the thread that are more interesting than others. And like any player, I sometimes don't pay as much attention unless something bites me on the nose.

OMGL fell in the second catergory when I read him. He doesn't really say much...at all. His votes have no cases, no reasoning...the only time I noticed him when was when he was voting SGR without a reason, and SGR asked him a question, got a lousy answer, and gave him a pass.

I don't think OMGL's better scum, no. What I do feel is that SGR isn't the lynch today, and I think we're both hoping that the other one gets lynched/night killed/says something stupid. I think SGR gives out passes to people and then chooses others to attack without bothering to apply scumtells evenly. I feel his AtE's at certain points of the game have been downright scummy, and that he did flipflop on Ythill and doesn't want to admit it. A lot of you are so far up Ythill's ass you can smell what he had for breakfast; but until I called him out for not calling me most scum and removed my elect, he wasn't ready to acutally make waves and act on his opinions. It may almost be 3 AM where I am, but crap, I have nothing to lose by calling this what it is--half the town is sheeping the most experienced players and aren't looking for any contradictions in play--and the scum may be taking advantage of it. There. I said it. Ythill and Seacore and LMP's scumtells may be wrong.

So, short version. No, I don't think SGR is lesser scum than OGML. I can see OGML as scum, tho', quite easily, and town needs a LYNCH more than anything else. We need to take it to the pressure point, squeeze what information we can and hopefully catch scum or make some connections at the end of the day here.

PL= policy lynch. I just finished Ozzie and Millie with werewolf who was scum in that game. (Mini 1115.) Also, No Exit with LMP, who was town (Ozzie and Millie too). If it helps get an idea of meta, then I have no problem with it.

Preview Edit: And OMGL is at L-1. Perhaps we should wait for his claim/defense before someone quickhammers him, please?

[SGRaaize]

What defense? He said he wouldn't worry about this until Thursday, elected me (Derp?) and went away.
Fuck that shit, let's hammer, I can't wait three more days

[Nexus]

I'm back. Can we not hammer until I've caught up and read the game?

Sorry about my v/la, it was somewhat unavoidable when I got sick.

[Nexus]

Ok I'm not willing to hammer OGML at the minute. He just strikes me as a bit of an idiot, rather than scummy. That's just from a brief ISO and reading. I mean, the lynch will be good for VCA if he flips town, and we see who took advantage of the idiot to get a mislynch. I'm happy to hammer just before the deadline, but I'd rather not do it at this specific time.

nominate: Seacore, Gaggle, Ythill

not that it really makes much difference.

Also, OGML has declared that he won't be here until Thursday. Do you want to give him a chance to respond, or are you wanting people to hammer immediately?

[SGRaaize]

I am waiting for you to Hammer, DO IT!!!

[AGar]

AGar: can you answer the question I asked (again) in my last post?

I could've sworn I did, because I remember reading it. /facepalm

AGar: what exactly do you think was wrong with Ani's logic about WC? As far as I can see, that's a pretty accurate description of what he was doing.

My issue was with his "It's cool I'm not worried about the OMGUS vote on me," which has no purpose being said in the first place then his weak reasoning to re-inforce is random vote on the guy he said he isn't worried about the OMGUS vote coming from.

That totally makes sense in my head.

Your posts prior to this indicated that the vote was for the weak reasoning behind his vote, not the shrugging off of the OMGUS vote prior to that. I'll reiterate my first question, though; what's weak about Ani's reasons for voting WC? To reiterate:

All Wraith has done so far is explain how many games he's been in, defend himself and give us a very tiny amount of meta.

The tone of it just didn't match up with the prior statement. The lead-in pretty much broke down the wagon on himself, which was rather pointless, and he made note of "Hey, I'm cool with the OMGUS vote on me," which was really unnecessary. Then to turn around and vote that person for defending himself, which last I checked was not a scum tell just not the proper approach of town play, giving meta - not a scumtell afaik - and explaining his experience (which wasn't that requested by Ythill?), it all chalked up to me as a really weak coverup for a "Hey look, I don't like his vote on me, but I have to make it seem like it's not OMGUS, because I said his vote is no big deal."

1) The thing is, AGar, this is day 1. There are no flips, no night actions, nothing. The ONLY thing that we can base scumreads off of is people's words, so nobody can be completely sure of scum except scum. So, even if you're personally sure someone is scum, even if you'd bet your life on it, you're still going to consider the possibility of being wrong, unless you're scum. For instance, I'm considering the possibility of being wrong on you. If I am wrong, then we're disagreeing over semantics, and we might end up with another pointless fight, which is the last thing town needs. However, I'm confident enough to take the risk. Anyone else want to join me?

The thing is, the "IF" shows a hint of doubt, not caution. You don't say "IF" when you're sure. You just keep your pressure up and "if" you're wrong, you continue on as normal. The fact that he's using "IF", to me, shows doubt in his read. The only reason to doubt his read would be if he was scum building a false case on one player that wasn't catching. It adds up with his change of mind towards me from SGR, after SGR's wagon never really got the momentum it needed for the player he was "sure" was scum, whereas he was only considering me scum "if" SGR flipped scum.

Ghostlin gains more scumpoints for choosing the SGR wagon as his poison, after telling me my Large Game theory was essentially wrong.

This statement is false. Ghost voted SGR first before you made your comment. Why did you claim this?

I read a higher level of commitment to the wagon from him as it gained steam, which happened after I gave my (Fate's, in all truthfulness) theory on large game wagonning and consolidation, and he said the theory was essentially bunk.

OGML wagon is at L-1. Half of me says wait for the claim, the other half says he's already given it with his most recent post.

[vezokpiraka]

I'm not hammering without a claim.

[Ythill]

Nobody's hammering yet, FFS.

I don't see how you wagon hopping and bandwagonning has anything to do with my credibility.

Nine of the seventeen players who are not me in this game are familiar enough with my play to know that D1 bandwagoning and vote hopping from me is meta null. It's not my behavior that will cost you credibility, but your opinion of it.

I just worried when he called me out as biggest scum and didn't vote me that maybe he didn't have that conviction after all.

Quoted for the lulz.

UNVOTE: OGML
VOTE: AGar Your turn, dude.

...he wasn't ready to acutally make waves and act on his opinions.

Lies. The only thing I failed to do was play the game the way you claim it should be played. My vote is now and always has been where, in my opinion, it should be. Waves or no.

Nexus' #379 contained two scumtells. Just sayin.

[Locke Lamora]

Ok I'm not willing to hammer OGML at the minute. He just strikes me as a bit of an idiot, rather than scummy. That's just from a brief ISO and reading. I mean,

the lynch will be good for VCA if he flips town, and we see who took advantage of the idiot to get a mislynch

. I'm happy to hammer just before the deadline, but I'd rather not do it at this specific time.

nominate: Seacore, Gaggle, Ythill

not that it really makes much difference.

Also, OGML has declared that he won't be here until Thursday. Do you want to give him a chance to respond, or are you wanting people to hammer immediately?

I don't even know where to begin with this post. First of all, why do you think OGML is a town idiot and not scum? The italicised makes it seem like you're fairly certain that OGML is a mislynch; why are you only talking about what happens if he's town? I'm sure you can also see the hypocrisy of saying you're happy to hammer but also that if he flips town you're going to see 'who took advantage of the idiot'. Why do you care what other people are wanting if you don't want to hammer until the deadline? You seem eager to please and far too ready to treat the lynch as set in stone for someone who apparently doesn't even think OGML is scum. You're already planning the next day, not scumhunting now.

Unvote; Vote: Nexus

[Ythill]

Just realized I missed that farside wall back there.

Are you saying 'Tarp' on purpose for some reason?

(1) I mean damn boy are you always cold and analytical when playing mafia? (2) What does MotR stand for? (3) Why are you voting for GG backstage when in one post you stated "I'm starting to think that only the chess head is being scummy" Did something change between that post and your election vote?

1. You've played with me before. I think my tone varies based on the game and player-set but I don't feel like a robot so... *shrug*
   
2. Middle of the Road
   
3. Yup.

Do I believe in policy lynching.......I sometimes wish I did. I have seen VI's hurt the town many times over. This game at least lets us sacrifice a player in exchange for another. What doe PL mean?

*face palm* It means Policy Lynch.

[Ythill]

Congrats to LL for naming those Nexus scumtells, BTW.

[Ythill]

Well... one of them anyway. The other one was this...

Do you want to give him a chance to respond, or are you wanting people to hammer immediately?

[Jahudo]

”They may babble on about micromilliseconds and virtual worlds and paradigm shifts and what-have-you, but they still inhabit this planet and are still bound by the cycle of the year. These are the dead months. A victory in these months is a dead victory.”

Llamafluff is V/LA until March 9.

Lynch Vote Count

OhGodMyLife (7) – AGar, MagnaofIllusion, WrathChild, SGRaaize, Seacore, Ghostlin, Saint
AGar (4) – Apokalyptika, vezokpiraka, OhGodMyLife, Ythill
Ghostlin (2) - werewolf555, Llamafluff
A Gaggle of Geese (1) – farside22
SGRaaize (1) - animorpherv1
Llamafluff (1) – Nexus
Farside22 (1) - A Gaggle of Geese
Nexus (1) – Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0):

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

--------------

Backstage Vote Count:

Top Four Players Go Backstage

Farside22 (11) – animorpherv1, farside22, Seacore, SGRaaize, AGar,
Ythill, Apokalyptika, Locke Lamora, Saint, werewolf555, MagnaofIllusion
Ythill (11) – Llamafluff, Seacore, animorpherv1, Agar, farside22, SGRaaize, Vezokpiraka, Apokalyptika, Saint, werewolf555, Nexus
A Gaggle of Geese (9) – Vezokpiraka, WrathChild, Ghostlin, Apokalyptika, AGar, Llamafluff, Locke Lamora, OhGodMyLife, Nexus
Seacore (8) – Ythill, Seacore, Vezokpiraka, A Gaggle of Geese, SGRaaize, WrathChild, werewolf555, Nexus
---
Llamafluff (5) – Ythill, Llamafluff, OhGodMyLife, animorpherv1, Locke Lamora
AGar (4) – farside22, WrathChild, Saint, MagnaofIllusion
Ghostlin (2) – A Gaggle of Geese, Ghostlin
MagnaofIllusion (1) – MagnaofIllusion
SGRaaize (1) – OhGodMyLife

Not Voting (2):

A Gaggle of Geese x1, Ghostlin x1

Today's deadline is March 19 at 6:00 PM EST

animorpherv1 has been prodded.

[Nexus]

Maybe I didn't explain myself.

I'm not convinced of OGML as scum. However, if noone has hammered, and it's ten minutes before the deadline, and we're heading for a no lynch, I will hammer him. Yeah, I'll take flak if we mislynch, but it also allows us to see who else was on the mislynch wagon.

What makes me think that OGML is a town idiot? The way he's acting. He could well be a scum idiot, but to me, most of the things he's done are just idiocy, neither town nor scum. Personal opinion. Would it have been easier to sheep along and hammered him without a claim, since that's what was being advocated? baaah.

I misunderstood when the deadline was. I thought we only had a couple of days, for some reason. That was my mistake, and that was why I thought the OGML lynch was inevitable-hence the agreement to hammer in a couple of days. Since I've realised that the deadline isn't in a couple of days, I can rethink my stance.

Ythill: If you read captain rattata's posts (SGR), he's pretty insistent on lynching now. So, I wanted to see what the general opinion of everyone else was. Didn't realise that was scummy. My bad.

[Saint]

Ythill, that is scummy regardless of your meta, and needs to be hammered out of you

[Saint]

Nexus and Ythill are receiving scumpoints for deterring this easy lynch

[Nexus]

There's still 11 days left til the deadline. Calm yourself.

[animorpherv1]

ugh. I'm here.

From what I've seen, a farside lynch look good, but what LL points about Nexus is defnitley good. The only real defense point is "I forgot what day the deadline is, I didn't do it" type deal. The rest of it is all deflecting points other places.

[WrathChild]

I agree that we don't need to rush into an OGML lynch. We have plenty of time. In fact I find SGR's anxiousness to lynch him a bit suspicious as do I the push away from his lynch by Nexus and Ythill. I think it would be best just to leave him at L-2 until we are satisfied with today's discussions.

[SGRaaize]

Yeah, we got as much as we could from this day. But sure, let's wait 11 more days, then.

[Saint]

HE'S AT L-3 YOU ALL CAN'T COUNT sheesh

the L-1 thing was a misrepresentation

i would have totally fakehammered him

[Saint]

ugh. I'm here.

From what I've seen, a farside lynch look good, but what LL points about Nexus is defnitley good. The only real defense point is "I forgot what day the deadline is, I didn't do it" type deal. The rest of it is all deflecting points other places.

considering those reads, why is your vote still where it is, considering it's at a place that is L-9?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Case in point: in SoS, Chess spent most of the latter half of Day 1 riding MoI. He didn't ask questions, he didn't have short reasoned statements...he just rode MoI.

DON’T TALK ABOUT ONGOING GAMES!

--

The S/R mechanic forces scum to either waste two kills (aka leave PRs alive) or have two extra confirmed, competent town alive in the midgame.

I don’t follow this logic at all. How are scum forced to waste kills? Are you referring to killing said confirmed Townie again once they are resurrected? And how does that process leave PRs alive. You are making a logical leap that the competent Town who would be brought back aren’t necessarily PRs in the first place which I don’t think is supportable.

Some players are worthwhile enough as town that I am less willing to lynch them on D1 due to the low percentage accuracy of D1 lynches, so I start them at town rather than null. Llama and Seacore both qualified in this game.

So an inverse policy lynch in effect. I see. Are Seacore and Llama the only players who met that criteria for you pre-game?

@

Ythill

– If you are so used to being killed early on in games (which I have seen you express at other times) why have you developed a Day 1 playstyle that creates useful information late game when you don’t expect to be alive?

Nine of the seventeen players who are not me in this game are familiar enough with my play to know that D1 bandwagoning and vote hopping from me is meta null. It's not my behavior that will cost you credibility, but your opinion of it.

Is Saint one of those Nine? If not why does his having a contrary opinion on what is a game-play choice cost him credibility? Just because you offer that it is Null doesn’t require everyone to ascribe to that.

--

I guess its safe to say I'm not getting elected though. Unelect: OhGodMyLife, Elect: SGRaiize

If OGML is indeed scum this is a nice heaping bowl of WIFOM since he’s suddenly electing the player he’s hammered today.

If OGML is Town …. I don’t even ….

--

Are you saying 'Tarp' on purpose for some reason? It really looks so odd.

I think Ythill has already shown you the reason I’ve been using ‘Tarp’. I have little respect for or belief in the effectiveness of gambit style traps like Gaggle ‘used’ on you. I’ve specifically referenced the Admiral Akbar “It’s a Tarp” meme because I’m being a bit of a jerk. I know … something I need to work on.

Also you stated there were others you found scummy, would you do a quick reason/who post?

I’ll give you the very quick run-down of those I also have found scummy with brief synopsis reasons

Animorph – his early attacks are absolutely crap and when he starts to get attention for them he fades into Lurkerdom

Ghostlin – ISO I feel is chock full of inconsistencies. Example: Unelects Ythill for not pursuing his ‘scum-list’ yet doesn’t follow up ever with that thought and simly pushed SGR (who I believe is a Bunnylover-style player) instead. His explanation of why at 376 doesn’t hold water as anything other than survivalist play. There are others I can provide if necessary.

Werewolf – Complete lack of any content or opinion augmented by pure fluff. From a quick bit of meta-research he’s happy to keep a low profile when scum and can get away with it this game with the abundance of VIs around.

Llamafluff – Call it gut at this point but I don’t like ISO 2 and 3 regarding his handling of SGR. I also would call ISO 3 potential distancing / bussing with Ghost.

There are other players I would support a policy lynch at deadline to prevent a no-lynch but that’s my feelings so far.

--

Dear god this wagon is stupid.

So you disagree with Ythill’s and AGar’s presented theories about driving wagons (even on Null and Town reads) Day 1 to create mineable information for Day 4 to 5?

--

Nexus and Ythill are receiving scumpoints for deterring this easy lynch

They get scum points for not advocating a quick-lynch without claim?

HE'S AT L-3 YOU ALL CAN'T COUNT sheesh

the L-1 thing was a misrepresentation

Um whut? He was at L-1 I believe until Locke and Ythill unvoted him. The same Ythilll you are saying should get scum-points for 'stalling the lynch".

[Locke Lamora]

ani: can you clarify why you thought the reasons you listed were worthy of leaving your vote on WC at that time?

Magna: on the topic of those three players I picked, it was exclusively a selection of players who had posted 5 times or less. I was interested in your opinion on our least frequent contributors, and I thought it would be a less effective source of information with a wider pool. I actually found Apok the scummiest when I asked you because it seemed like the AGar vote was very forced and it took a lot of effort for her to work up a reason to vote for anyone at all. Then Nexus came up with his scum-tastic OGML post and went up my rankings.

Nexus: your reasons for OGML being a town idiot actually indicate you think he's a null idiot. Nothing you've explained there is indicative of a town read. Also, any particular reason that you thought the deadline was soon given that the game's only been going for what, 5 days?