American Gods Mafia - Game over

[Kublai Khan]

Almost forgot..

unvote
vote: Ghostlin
Unelect (x3)
Elect: Locke Lamora
Elect: farside22
Elect: LynchMePls

[Jahudo]

”Shadow could not decide whether he was looking at a moon the size of a dollar, a foot above his head, or whether he was looking at a moon the size of the Pacific Ocean, many thousands of miles away.
Nor whether there was any difference between the two ideas. Perhaps it was all a matter of the way you looked at it.”

Lynch Vote Count

OhGodMyLife (5) – MagnaofIllusion, WrathChild, SGRaaize, Saint, Apokalyptika
Nexus (4) – Locke Lamora, farside22, A Gaggle of Geese, AGar
00iCon (4) – LynchMePls, OhGodMyLife, Seacore, Kublai Khan
WrathChild (2) – Ythill, Llamafluff
SGRaaize (1) –Nexus
AGar (1) – vezokpiraka

Not Voting (1):

00iCon

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

--------------

Backstage Vote Count:

Top Four Players Go Backstage

Farside22 (9) – farside22, Seacore, SGRaaize, Ythill, Apokalyptika, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, Kublai Khan
Ythill (8) – Llamafluff, Seacore, Agar, SGRaaize, Vezokpiraka, Apokalyptika, Nexus, LynchMePls
A Gaggle of Geese (7) – Vezokpiraka, WrathChild, AGar, Locke Lamora, OhGodMyLife, Nexus, Ythill
Seacore (6) – Seacore, Vezokpiraka, A Gaggle of Geese, SGRaaize, WrathChild, Nexus
LynchMePls (6) – Ythill, LynchMePls, Llamafluff, MagnaofIllusion, Apokalyptika, Kublai Khan
---
Llamafluff (4) – Llamafluff, OhGodMyLife, Locke Lamora, Saint
Locke Lamora (3) – farside22, Saint, Kublai Khan
MagnaofIllusion (2) – MagnaofIllusion, Saint
00iCon (1) – A Gaggle of Geese
Apokalyptika (1) – OhGodMyLife
Saint (1) - WrathChild

Not Voting (6):

A Gaggle of Geese x1, 00iCon x3, farside22 x1, AGar x1

Today's deadline is March 19 at 6:00 PM EST

[WrathChild]

@KK: First Ghostlin is no longer in the game your vote should reflect the slot, who is 00iCon. Second, I've just been frustrated with the transition into this group from my old one. It seems like no matter what I say here I am the VI, but if you go back and read my last game, my reads were pretty solid, but still you are absolutely correct that I need to stop whining about it and I will try my best to do that. If you actually look at the source of the early pressure on me it was very weak and I was just frustrated having to deal with that.

@Ythill: Quit misrepping me. I never said that I thought OGML is town. I've supported his lynch from the onset of his lock-jaw on SGR. I never once advocated chain lynching. People have been drawing connections/distancing between other people this whole game, but when I say there is something up with how SGR pushed for a quick, premature end of the day when the OGML wagon was at L-2 (give or take) all of a sudden I'm scum. At the point I had a fairly town-read on SGR and his push at the end of the Wagon felt like something to note, but not enough for me to think OMFG SGR is scum and OGML is OBVTOWN, hence why my vote is still on him.

@Seacore: I don't appreciate being labeled VI with out good explanation. I think the cases that have been brought up against me are crappy and don't feel like I've done anything particularly hurtful to town or dumb in the slightest way. So could you please explain why you feel it necessary to label me as such. The way I see it if you get someone labeled VI the less of a chance they have of being revived, which would obviously be the goal of the mafia, get people dead that others won't revive.

Unelect Seacore

@Farside: Could you please explain which of my Read Notes you'd like me to expand on? Keep in mind that was much earlier in the game and a lot has happened since.

[Locke Lamora]

My thoughts on things since my last proper post:

Agree strongly with LMP 496. I'm sure Ythill is aware that switching his vote can change the momentum of a wagon. If he genuinely wants Ghostlin lynched, he should switch himself.

Would love to know why OGML has a town read on Apok. I've seen the occasional forced vote and a desire to keep options wide open. Not exactly worthy of town-cred.

WC:

My most recent suspicion on SGR is that he is pushing for a quick end to the Day with the weight of the wagon on OGML. I think an OGML flip would tell us a ton about SGR.

This may be the biggest slip so far. Wrath is suspecting SGR based on the assumption of an OGML townflip while supposedly suspecting OGML. Double scumpoints.

Umm did I say townflip. Nope. I said flip. So if OGML flips town it will tell us one thing and if he flips scum it will tell us another thing. I have no idea where you got that I think OGML is town. I've been supporting his lynch this whole game.

(Commenting as I go)

Before I comment on this whole situation, I'd like to know the answer to one question: what do you think an OGML scum-flip tells us about SGR?

Saint 517 hints at dissonance - he still wants to vote for OGML, but he implies that OGML contributing makes him think OGML is town.

Apok 527 calls out Vezo for not providing analysis and then makes two statements that are utterly devoid of analysis. More scumpoints.

Ghostlin replacing out has reminded me that I don't think I've seen anything from Ghostlin for quite some time, which makes sense since his last proper post was almost a week ago. I found the Ghostlin early push on me followed by the question dodging to be scummy but to be honest I've found other candidates much scummier since and haven't really looked at him in detail. I'll ISO him later tonight.

MoI 560 strikes me as unnecessary speculation and information overload at this stage, particularly as Ythill says he's not going to put too much stock in this theory without flips.

'Underwhelming' is definitely the feeling I get from Llama so far. I haven't found much of what he's done to be particularly driven scumhunting, more of it seems to be shooting other cases down.

LMP is aggressively scumhunting, I think he's made a number of accurate points and I know he has experience of a similar backstage role from ACoK, so:

Unelect: Llama; Elect: LMP

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Unelect Seacore

Elect LMP

Elect A Gaggle of Geese

Didn't consult with partner before doing that, so >_>

LL, are you town? I get this pro-town vibe from all your posts, but I'm just not getting a townread, it's weird.

[OhGodMyLife]

Unelect x3
Elect: Ythill
Elect: LMP
Elect: Locke

I'll be back after lunch.

[Saint]

This is ridiculous. I understand that people are busy. I know that there are exams coming up for some of you. But it will only take you a minute to vote for Wrath.

@AGar:

Meh. I suppose I put less weight on "with intent" than you do, because lots of people believe that pressure is more effective when it seems like you want to lynch.

@00iCon:

Hi. Nice fedora. How do you feel about players that replace out under pressure? What are your reads on Wrath and KK?

@The OGML Wagon:

If you are going to insist on parking there, I'd like you to state your opinion of Wrath's #449. Specifically, do you agree that it looks like Wrath is chaining lynches? If not, why not? If so, how are you justifying a lynch on OGML when the point clearly suggests that he is town? Also, what do you think of Wrath's defenses to the accusation?

I read 449 as him needing to learn how to spell lose, also muddying the waters of a good lynch
If OGML

is

town, which I doubt, why does it even matter? He's not going to do anything.
/policy

Most of his posts completely dodge scumhunting, and the one post that I've seen out of him that

doesn't

COMPLETELY FLIP FLOPS on his SGR read... who he started the wagon on... in the RVS. He moves his read on him back and forth, it was an obvious bus, they are both scum. I've been scum on d1 getting bussed (see: Mini 1000). That is how I read that.

I'm still here. I just have nothing to say with everybody going v/la or jumping ship.
I don't think WC is scum, but I'll lynch him at deadline as a VI and not feel too bad about it.

What would benefit Seacore-town from saying this?
...

I would still really like to lynch ghostlin. I could live with lynching wrath. Currently for some reason it seems really difficult to get traction on either of these wagons because people keep making excuses and coming back to either me or nexus. I'll have more after my shift today.

Ghostlin isn't even in the game. You mean his slot? You want to lynch before hearing from the replacement? I like my vote a lot right now.

Are you kidding me right now? First off, of course I mean his slot. It feels like you're being intentionally thick headed with that question. Second, where did I ever say I want a lynch before his replacement has a chance to say something? You're putting words in my mouth. I've never been the person pushing to end this day early. Thats been coming from the people on my wagon, actually.

I was being intentionally thick, that is the one thing you are right about.
You didn't want to lynch his replacement before he had a chance to say something?
How come 2 posts before this it starts with the line "I want to lynch Ghostlin", and your fucking vote is on him, bro?
Nice little mudsling at the end, too, champ.

Hey Ythill,

I'm not getting a scummy vibe from WC's post. It's only natural to be somewhat suspicious of someone rushing to hammer, even if you find the lynch target scummy. Also, I skimmed the Cyclic Experimentation game, in which WC was town, and his posting seems consistent with what I've seen here.

I agree with that, but have you seen him as scum? I haven't, and I was in that game, so even I have had to treat that mainly being null. I may have mentioned it, but I am trying to avoid a read on him because I feel like I will be influenced (possibly unjustly)

@KK I am hydraing with 1 person on another account, and starting one with a second, both in RC games. Why?
Also, link to where my play "has been horrible"
-thanks

I will explain OGML's reads to you:
Ghostlin (no fucking idea) - this is his one lynch that he has latched onto I can't explain, which is why I questioned it recently
SGR (you say, what? but if you really want to know, you haven't read the game properly) - bussing
AGar/Farside/Saint - He began to be suspicious of all of us ONLY AFTER WE VOTED HIM/MADE CASES ON HIM.

@Locke, after that post, I actually gave him a chance to contribute. If you'll notice in my next couple of posts I make a great case as to why he is scum, eventually voting him in #559. His play has not been good for the town, and I'm fairly sure he is scum, because of his willingness to wagon so many people and his backtracking.

[LimMePls]

LL, are you town? I get this pro-town vibe from all your posts, but I'm just not getting a townread, it's weird.

This question and statement make my scumdar twitch some. Can you explain and expand on what you mean that you have a pro-town vibe but not a town read?

[A Gaggle of Geese]

It should be pretty self-explanatory. Almost everything does appears to be pro-town, but I'm feeling sincerity in his actions, like he's scum acting pro-town, hence, no townread despite pro-town play.

[LimMePls]

I'm assuming you mean "no sincerity"? How do you sense sincerity? Give me an example of a player who is playing like LL but has sincerity, so that I can judge what you mean.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

It's a gut thing, sincerity. Like if you're talking to someone, how do you tell if they're bullshitting you if they're a good liar? Same thing.

I've mentioned before for sure ITT that I read people based on motivation and gut, and history has shown my reads to be pretty accurate, so why stop doing something that works.

Ythill would be the best example I guess.

[LimMePls]

I'm not asking you to stop doing it, I'm just trying to get a grasp on exactly what you're doing. I'm also trying to sense your motivation in making the statement in the first place. And the first step in doing so is trying to understand exactly what you're doing.

So your head tells you town but your gut tells you scum? Is that a way to describe it?

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Gut isn't saying scum, but it certainly isn't saying town.

Generally if Gut+Head both say town, it's 100% town. Gut reads are more powerful than logic based reads, though if the two disagree it's always annoying.

I said that in thread to bring a bit of attention besides oh hey look lots of goodposting from LL => town.

Everyone's been in games where the most obvtown person is scum. Remember those games.

[Locke Lamora]

Ghostlin ISO:

-His vote on SGR in 3 seems like an attempt to over-explain the vote, particularly "your second post reads like a scummy player". Well, duh.

-Town points from the unelect of Ythill in 6; his doubts about Ythill's motives seem genuine, and I think he's bucking a trend and drawing attention when it would have been easy to follow others and elect Ythill.

-The response to werewolf in 10 is strange, not least because I don't see why Ghostlin has responded to it at all. It's almost 'it doesn't count if it's an RVS vote, so there'; surely the logical town response would be either to ignore it or ask werewolf what his case is.

-Really don't like the Tasky vote in 15, particularly for this sentence "Tasky's worth susspecting and it's worth applying pressure for his replacement to find out if the the tactics continue. The only people who have posted less are werewolf, who's sorta infamous for it, and vezok, who is all but a confirmed VI regardless of which game he plays." So first off, he tells Tasky's replacement exactly what he has to avoid to remove the pressure, then he pre-emptively explains away the bigger lurking of werewolf and vezo through meta (despite the fact this isn't actually the crux of his case), which indicates that he's thinking about making sure he doesn't draw suspicion.

-Admitting he got distracted and defensive in 16 is mildly pro-town to me. I think being overly focused on defence can indicate anti-town focus on self-preservation, but admitting it means he's not trying to take attention away from it.

-One of his main reasons for backing the OGML wagon in 20 seem to basically boil down to not posting much content over a lot of posts, which does beg a couple of questions: first, why wasn't OGML higher on his scumlist if he was more obviously posting without content than the likes of Tasky; and second, why is he only 'OK' with the vote when he seems to draw the conclusion that OGML is pretty scummy? The post itself seems more like a close-to-deadline justification vote than anything based on scumhunting.

-Farside then challenges him on OGML and he admits he hadn't really noticed what OGML was posting at all before that point; fine, but why the eagerness to back the wagon if he's not your top lynch choice? He also says that SGR doesn't apply scumtells evenly to people, which is incredibly hypocritical in a post where he admits he barely noticed what OGML had posted for most of the game, and then later indicated that OGML had done some of the things he voted Tasky for, like sheeping wagons with no reason. This whole OGML vote situation seems to have parallels with Nexus' OGML reaction; both acted like it was close to the deadline and they wanted to be seen that they were willing to back the wagon despite not previously finding him scummy (and in Nexus' case, apparently not finding him scummy at all).

In short, I would back a Ghostlin lynch. I find a couple of town tells in the way he has reacted to things, but a lot of his vote explanations seem forced and awkward and the OGML-hop seems jumpy and lacking in conviction for no apparent reason.

That said, I still think Nexus is scum and I think his willingness to hammer OGML was much worse. Now he's admitted he has no reasons to actually believe OGML is town, he's fallen back to just stating he just thinks OGML is an idiot, not a town-idiot. I think that first explanation of the desire to hammer is very revealing - there inclination to set up lynches is quite clearly based on an underlying thought process based on OGML being town, and I think that's why Nexus implied he was a town-idiot.

GG: yes. Does that change your read at all?

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Admitting Ghostlin has towntelled helps appease my gut a bit, actually, yes.

This game needs flips, since all of these scummy lynch candidates have towntelled.

Might be taking a closer look at Apok later today, seems a bit UTR to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because putting "Thoughts?" at the end of that was clearly you disagreeing with Ythill, and not at all you trying to start an unelect GG movement, amirite?

Or it was inviting him to comment to further solidify my read on him. But feel free to be paranoid.

Oh hey look, being MoI. Classic Scum tell?
See what I did there?

Yes, I see you were once again trolling. Because your tell (simply being a player makes them scum) is just you being stupid. What I’ve suggested is behavior that I’ve observed in the past coming from scum and makes sense from a scum perspective (pre-emptively arguing).

Do you seriously think Scum woud pile on scum with elect votes? Are you actually trying to argue this?
And no, we don't think "because scum are electing us we're town". We KNOW we're town, tyvm

Did you miss the part where it was Ythill arguing that scum would be trying to slip a team member backstage? And that post was taking

HIS

reads and testing to see

HIS

reaction when presented with statstics that feed into

HIS

theory?

I’m glad you ‘know’ you are Town. So does everyone in a Mafia game

Also, all these people on our wagon you call scum, we call "Grade A mislynch bait", and guess what?

Grade A mislynch bait general have pretty good reads, and suck at arguing them

Hey look, once again you are conflagrating Ythill’s reads with mine (although we have some commonality). Don’t let the facts get in the way of your rant.

If you think his reads are filled with Grade-A mislynch bait why aren't you questioning him about them?

And I’d like some evidence for your bolded assertion because I’d venture to say that’s a pretty inaccurate statement.

--

@Magna: KK replaced ani, not Ghost.

I realize that now. Ghost requested first so I just assumed Jahudo sloted him there. First time I have seen a Mod replace in reverse request order (ani replace first when he requested second).

1. He's never been higher than third on my suspect list and that only briefly. Currently, I've got him at null.
2. Upon returning from V/LA, he dropped several towntells under pressure.
3. Scummy-as-they-come Wrath made a slip that suggests OGML is town.

I don’t really care personally where he is on your suspect list or you feelings on Town-tells. He’s at the top of mine. He’s never addressed the behavior I pointed out to coincide with my initial vote, lurked away the pressure, and continues to do zero scum-hunting IMO. Also see his latest bout of scumminess I show below. I see him as a viable lynch candidate and will move off him if necessary at deadline if someone I consider scummy needs a vote to secure a lynch.

--

I would still really like to lynch ghostlin. I could live with lynching wrath. Currently for some reason it seems really difficult to get traction on either of these wagons because people keep making excuses and coming back to either me or nexus.

Perhaps people keep coming back to you because you are scummy? That’s why my vote stays with you.

Speaking of scum-tells –

Wait a minute, since when have you been suspicious of ani? You never even mentioned him before this.

farside, just because someone doesn't explicitly express suspicion of you doesn't mean they're not suspicious of you. Did you consider the possibility that I unelected you as I became suspicious of you?

The only mention you made of Farside before unelecting (aside from your election) her was to agree with her suspicion of SGR at 119.

You are showing cognitive dissonance. You argued against your sudden suspicion of Farside in 289 being scummy but are indicating that Seacore displaying the exact same behavior is scummy.

I’m very happy with my vote.

--

I don't like WC post where he list his reads of players. If you read it, he has states reasons that don't make sense on why he believes a person is town. He down plays the ghostlin case with saying I see it but get a town read on him. He does some fence sitting glore on those reads.

In light of your thoughts on the WC list post what do you think of KK’s similar style post at 599?

[Ythill]

Ohey, content. I've read it all, but have no time for direct responses. Will catch up tonight after work.

I'm nonplussed about the lack of Wrath hate. This is the second time I've tried vainly to get something going on him. Strange in a game where people otherwise seem ready to trip over their feet to wagon with me, huh?

[LimMePls]

Ythill,

Maybe because we're done with the wagon hopping and ready to get a lynch? You think WC is plainly superior to Ghostlin? Explain why. Otherwise get back here.

[SGRaaize]

Once again, I'm here.
Tomorrow, I'l talk

[Seacore]

Hey look, more posting, yay.

I'll read through it all with a bit more care later today.

But I noticed two things addressed to me.

@Saint - RE why would town-seacore post that? Town Seacore (which is the only seacore there has ever been) always posts his plans and motivations so he can maintain transparency. So I'm stating that I do not think that the WC lynch will provide a dead scum. And I'm stating under what circumstances I will contribute to that lynch. This is what I do in all my games all.

@WC - Re why I call you a VI. Okay, maybe VI is harsh depending on your interpretation of it. You're not in the same category as, lets say, Furc, who is a player who is terrible, never tries to improve and actually makes the game harder for whichever team he's on. But you're making some really illogical statements. Ythill and others are interpreting them as scummy. I don't see them as scummy so much as just wrong. An example can be found in the same post you complained about being a VI in.

The way I see it if you get someone labeled VI the less of a chance they have of being revived, which would obviously be the goal of the mafia, get people dead that others won't revive.

This is wrong. You are claiming that scum would have a motivation to 'establish' a player as a VI, thus discouraging town from reviving them should they die.
The following things are wrong with that.
1) If a town player is behaving scummy enough to be lynched, they are also more likely to be not being helpful to town. Therefore they are unlikely to be revived.
2) If a town player is playing like a VI, scum will not NK that person, so they are unlikely to be revived.

So, if I was scum, declaring you a VI would be pointless. If I was worried about you, I'd just NK you (but please with targets like Ythill, MoI and LMP out there, you are not getting NK'd) or I'd contribute to your lynch.

Here is how reviving will actually work. Night 1 someone awesome will be NK'd. Night 2 someone else awesome will be NK'd. When it appears the game is two days away from ending we'll sacrifice poorer players (I'm looking in yours and vezok's directions) and return these awesome players to life.

Your lack of understanding how sacrifice and declaring people to be VIs will work is one of the reason I'm calling you a VI.

*awaits more of LMPs claims that I'm coaching*

[Saint]

why did you type all twice there?
as if youre not even addressing me, you're addressing everyone else, because you are scum appealing to the town

[Seacore]

wut?

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe because we're done with the wagon hopping and ready to get a lynch? You think WC is plainly superior to Ghostlin? Explain why. Otherwise get back here.

For my move, I really dont like the way that WC is pushing the OMGL lynch. He seems to be almost soley using the reasoning of "It will tell us about others" while pushing on him. This is mangified by the fact that OMGL is a medium town read to me, and the wagon on him is really ugly looking.

I will have no problem moving back to a Ghost lynch since I still have a scum read there, but I want to get more out of this mini-wagon at least before we actually throw a lynch out there.

@WC - Why is OGML scum?
Same question to Apoc and SGR

[Kublai Khan]

@KK: First Ghostlin is no longer in the game your vote should reflect the slot, who is 00iCon. Second, I've just been frustrated with the transition into this group from my old one. It seems like no matter what I say here I am the VI, but if you go back and read my last game, my reads were pretty solid, but still you are absolutely correct that I need to stop whining about it and I will try my best to do that. If you actually look at the source of the early pressure on me it was very weak and I was just frustrated having to deal with that.

Eh.. Jahudo counted my vote anyways.

I'd discuss site meta with you, but I think it's irrelevant to this game. Perhaps afterwards. However, for the record, I wouldn't call you a VI. VIs are players that are very, very hard to read because of their erratic and unpredictable behavior (either consioucly or uncounciously).

@KK I am hydraing with 1 person on another account, and starting one with a second, both in RC games. Why?
Also, link to where my play "has been horrible"
-thanks

So, in this game you are Furcolow alone, yes?

Your play has been horrible in that you have repeatedly tried to undermine the towniest players (i.e. Ythill & farside22) with weak drive-by "cases". You switched to Nexus, which looked like you're trying to move in early on a Nexus-wagon. When that faltered, you moved back to a OGML vote because that's a pretty safe spot to park your vote.

This game needs flips, since all of these scummy lynch candidates have towntelled.

This. There has also been way too much analysis done with way too little info. I was stunned that there has been Vote Count analysis done on Day freaking 1.

[Seacore]

I totally missed that Saint was Furc. I will not longer bother to respond to that slot.