[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[gandalf5166]

Actually Crazy, I think that's probably too HIGH of a mafia win rate >.>

[Empking]

Actually Crazy, I think that's probably too HIGH of a mafia win rate >.>

Really? I know that I consider the town's win con is in the right place and the same is true for the jester.

[gandalf5166]

Actually Crazy, I think that's probably too HIGH of a mafia win rate >.>

Really? I know that I consider the town's win con is in the right place and the same is true for the jester.

Isn't it usually standard practice for mafia to have a lower WR than town, since mafia have an inherent advantage?

[Empking]

Actually Crazy, I think that's probably too HIGH of a mafia win rate >.>

Really? I know that I consider the town's win con is in the right place and the same is true for the jester.

Isn't it usually standard practice for mafia to have a lower WR than town, since mafia have an inherent advantage?

No. Not at all.

[gandalf5166]

It's the other way around, isn't it >.>

[LlamaFluff]

Well I will be the one to say it.

I dont think we should ever have any open games that have a jester in them. Jesters go against everything that is mafia, by actively punishing the town for scumhunting players who look scummy. It creates a lot of WIFOM as the town now has to decide if the player who reads as scum actually is trying to get lynched because it lets them win the game. While it may be able to be balanced in the long run, I just really dont see it as being something that should be ran since it is about as close to being "not mafia" as you can while still staying in the relm of actually working. It just (again no offense) sounds like one of those setups that is going to be loved by the VI players, while most of the vet players avoid it at almost all costs. Jesters are just wrong as a role, and I do not want them in open games.

I think vengeful should be eliminated as well but thats another story and for different reasons

[gandalf5166]

The small text made me lose respect for the entire rest of the post.

[LlamaFluff]

Notice I said "other reasons" there. Its fine as mafia, its not fine as a prerequisite to mod anything else since its over in five pages.

[drmyshottyizsik]

different reasons

different != other

[LlamaFluff]

Same.... difference

[drmyshottyizsik]

So in different words....
Same......... otherence?

[gandalf5166]

I misinterpreted that as simply acknowledging the fact that the goon in vengeful isn't quite the same as a jester.

[LlamaFluff]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

[Tragedy]

Basically calling it as a 'Normal Game', except Open is more crazy.

[gandalf5166]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

But why would scum do that? That's taking a LOT of risk.

[Empking]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

Er...no. You lynch a random non-jester claimant twice and then you lynch the scum.

[gandalf5166]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

Er...no. You lynch a random non-jester claimant twice and then you lynch the scum.

Oh, and there's that.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh yeah the suicide thing stops that breakage, although it also relies on town knowingly lynching town twice which is a sign of a problem again.

I think the setup is just not a good one for the open queue because it has a jester, which is toeing the line of "not mafia". Any setup where town can lose the game by lynching someone who is not town, which is exactly what they are supposed to do, has some serious flaws in it. As a closed setup with a warning of there being a jester, fine, but I think a jester game is not something that should be commonly occuring on the site, since it teaches things that are damaging to play outside of jester games.

[gandalf5166]

I don't see why mafia has to be "lynch the person who's not town". Mafia has always been to me about reading other players' intentions. Whether or not their intentions are to die or to stay alive is irrelevant, it just adds another layer of play.

[LlamaFluff]

Eliminate the not-town people is the goal of mafia. Jesters change the goal to eliminate the non-town people but not one of the non-town people or you lose. I may be odd (since my favorite three opens are Jungle Republis, 8:4 Nightless and 10:2 Mountain), but I dont think a jester game needs to be added to open possibilites.

[gandalf5166]

Well, there are some people who think that serial killers aren't mafia, because mafia is about connections. I think everyone has their own idea of what mafia is about, and I think asking that certain types of setups should be banned from the open queue simply because they don't conform to your idea of mafia is kind of unreasonable.

[LlamaFluff]

Jesters are almost universally hated though. Yes I think the game is going to go though, but I really dont think that its a good setup to expose to the open queue. It can work, but as I said, any setup where town loses for doing the right thing (lynching anti town) is flawed. Its why you lynch all neutral claims in closed setups, its the best plan of attack for town, this setup makes non-optimal play "correct"

[Tragedy]

Suicide Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jailkeeper

2 Psychopaths

1 Forensic Cop
1 Psychiatrist
1 Universal Back-Up
7 Vanilla Townies

Notes

- All kills remains Unrevealed and kept in silence.
- Mafia can only talk during the Night and wins when they dominate everybody. Kill flavor is 'Making Target Suicide'.
- Jailkeeper can keep someone in the prison during the Night.
- Psychopaths kill people separately. If 'cured' by the Psychiatrist, they'll suicide instead of turning town. Kill flavor is 'Stabbed to Death'.
- Forensic Cop can check the Dead Corpse and check what the players Alignment was.
- Psychiatrist can 'cure' people from commit suicide [Mafia kills] and 'cure' Psychopaths, killing them right away.
- Universal Back-Up replaces Forensic Cop or Psychiatrist. However, they do not know whom the original players have targeted.

[Crazy]

10:2 Mountainous

This is a random tangent, but this has always bugged me... why the heck is it 10:2 Mountainous instead of, say, 9:2 Mountainous? I mean, either way it's the same, 5 lynches to catch 2 scum. I guess it's probably because 12 was the old mini limit so everyone automatically became obsessed with making everything 12 players. But really, I see no reason why the default shouldn't be changed to 9:2 (or to make it more town-favored, 11:2).

As for the Jester, I understand your objections, but I think the main problems with Jesters arise when they exist in closed setups. In an open setup, the main point is still the same, figure out the other player's true intentions and lynch based off of that. There's also the problem with Kingmaker when Jesters exist in open setups, but the Jester's suicide kill solves that problem here.

The thing is, Jesters

will

try to look like scum, but they have a different win condition than scum, so ultimately, there should be differences between Jester play and Scum play. Just like how in regular games scum will try to look like town, but that doesn't mean that scum play is exactly the same as town play.

Also, note that unlike in other Jester setups that have been run in the past, the scum don't have any incentive to look like the Jester, since they still have to survive one lynch after the Jester suicides.

[Faraday]

If you're gonna put a Jester anywhere it does less damage in the open queue, since the people signing up to the game know there's one in it. I don't see the harm in it, personally.