American Gods Mafia - Game over

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Not sure if I want KK over OGML right now, but I see what farside is getting at and need to reevaluate a little. Still dislike the MoI lynch though, but as Sea, it should easily be proveable.

Why would you unvote and say this if you were "RB" during one of your investigations?

Why not?

Vote Sea

Change of plans farside. I have been mulling this over, there are two scenarios here. Scenario A, very good. Scenario B, either bad or catasrophic. Problem is it can be hard to tell the two apart without someone getting lynched or claiming (although that opens a new can of worms). I will explain all backstage (yes lol backstage again) but it needs to stay private through today. Tonight I will claim BS right out the gate, and someone will be able to claim in public tomorrow.

And here is scum with an way to lynch a PR without trying. Congrats Llama on pushing to lynch a town PR that scum would like to see gone more.

As I said, was pretty sure that Sea was a GF type role and saw this as a chance to get him lynched flat out by blustering about my role a little bit. If I was right on it, this would have been a genius move.

I see the KK stuff, I do. I just am not overly confident on it due to how much getting an actual town read on ani has me confused on him. I think at this point I would vote KK over OGML simply due to my town read on OGML, I fail to see how continually asking to be killed is a scumtell (yes WIFOM I know) but when my top read is aggressively trying to oblige that deathwish, im not down for that one.

Sea >> KK >> OGML

Please come back now, the plan has a fatal flaw in it depending on a few things. This isnt a "oh it might give us a false result" its more like "this can cause a couple of mislynches" thing. If you think Sea is scum, follow me on this one. Its not like I can get away without backing it up in the immediate future.

Still not explaining the OGML town read and keeps pushing him back to the pack.

Still not explaining how this is a tell.

I dont agree with the way he is playing, or too many of his reads, but I do have a town read on him because I cant for the life of me see anyone who is going to take a OGML-scum lynch to the bank. Also the fact that he was trying to make himself dead when there was a SK alive. That makes giving town points to your partners even more dangerous, since putting yourself too far up there can actually make you a target.

I don't understand this. Please explain.

Also you thought my theory was scummy about MOI but LL followed it up and explained it during day 3 why do you ignore that?

The Night that LLama supposedly investigated LMP he never said anything pro or con in any way shape or form. So why investigate someone you don't have anythign to say to or about?

With an SK alive (or any other anti-town), it can be a significant threat to scum. I should know, my death rate from other factions is my most common type of death as scum. Scum being self-sacraficial usually means that they are somehow benifiting the rest of their team, such as good town reads. With a SK alive, that can just attract kills straight to them, so a much more dangerous move on behalf of all scum alive.

Leave for a couple days and people just go apeshit...

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

Now, not that it matters much at this point, but I will throw out all results of mine since we are getting to the point where it can probably clear out quite a few players. BS players know how to take this so I wont claim 100%, but this is what I have so far apart from the N1 innocent.

N2 - SGR (now ooba) is not mafia
N3 - LMP is not mafia

Vote KK

Why would someone town clear a person they had a slight suspicion on day 2?

Another attempt to call me scum because I didnt make the "right" investigation? I already explained my reasoning to investigate LMP. I dont want to start repeting myself even more.

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

More on the rest of this post when I have time but ..

FUCK NO

.

Simply put you don't get to take two obv-scum in Gaggle in OGML off the table. No dice.

And we aren't lynching KK today. Sorry, I have a bigger Town read on him than you.

Wow, im hurt.

I am taking GG off the table. I am also taking OGML and you off the table, and then im taking ooba and LMP off the table. This aint a buffet, there is a nice resturant with a menu and you can select only one item.

Aaaaahhhh how cute. Look at the scum MOI trying to talk with his scum partner in game. Llama even states a bit of suspicion in his post but doesn't follow threw with it.

This is not suspicion towards MoI, this is just trying to keep someone I have a town read on in line.

More questions to Llama: If you believed MOI was town at the endo of the day 3 why did you not elect him to go BS? Same question about day 4, why not elect him to go backstage then?

He wasnt one of my top few choices on either of them.

What happened to not lynching MOI and finding him town to suddenly (without a reason anywhere) sacrificing him?

Given that MoI had CLAIMED SCUM at this point, you are now officially grasping at any straws possible, and im guessing not reading the game in context but just isoing me looking for anything that you might be able to make into a tell.

Lmp and GG where backstage with me Night 1 when ythill commented that he believed Llama was a PR that day do to the weak claim he had on day 1, which all of us BS talked about.

Also on Night 3 while BS that Llama is neglecting is he claimed he hinted day 1 to draw a night kill to protect the "amnesic cop". It was also for those who lack memory skills or the desire to go back and read that I voted for llama day 2.
Ythill had made his statement Night 1 and seeing Llama alive did not make sense to me. Why would scum keep alive someone they believe is a PR? Now Llama is claiming he was RB night 2 because of his little WIFOM show. Why would scum not RB him night 1 if they believe he was a PR, but RB on night 2 do to a claim?

No clue. Maybe scum had a strong PR read on someone else, you are going to have to ask Ythill about that one after the game is over. Again you are getting timelines mixed up, never breadcrumbed (that I know of) during day one, that was all day two.

Now, last night I actually got blocked again. Im guessing MoI is exactly what he claims and watched me looking for the non existant amnesic, and then realized that I was just screwing with them and really was an info role.

how does this even compute if MOI used his 1-shot watch against Fate?

Your right, forgot it was one shot. I was just trying to come up with any reason that it could be otherwise. Maybe scum have a rolecop, maybe scum have a watcher/tracker, hell if I know. How is this a point against me again though? You are just commenting on things now.

Also scum killed VIs... your point being? My best guess is that they could kill a town leader PR and dont want to deal with that resurection, like if I got killed by Saint instead of Ythill, thats a very dangerous role coming back since it has info AND it is confirmed town AND a scumhunting threat.

And this was the theory I had and stated I believe Night 2 to those BS. See this is why I asked why he that a VT claim would save him. It doesn't because scum were being smart I believe and not killing who they believed were PR's because of the rez ability for the town.

Ok so there is your response as to why I didnt die night one even though Ythill thought I was a PR. Simple enough

@LMP - I have no idea how my role is counteracted this game. Maybe there are some wierd scum PRs that directly counters my role like some type of a framer + GF, or this takes a mechanic that ive always wanted to try (scum investigate innocent until they have performed a kill in a PR heavy game).

@LL/WC/GG/Apoc - Make a stance time. This thing with me and farside is just going to run in circles.

And now im late for class... again.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

i'm good for the moment. also not reading you/farside's back and forth as it's not going to help me determine your alignment, really, just who can argue better. we're reviewing your earlier play.

we'll keep you posted xx

~ not chesskid

[LimMePls]

@LMP - I have no idea how my role is counteracted this game. Maybe there are some wierd scum PRs that directly counters my role like some type of a framer + GF, or this takes a mechanic that ive always wanted to try (scum investigate innocent until they have performed a kill in a PR heavy game).

But all of that could be accomplished with a regular Cop. My understanding of a gunsmith is that they are a cop that gets guilty on vigs. But we don't have a vig this game.

Could be MODWIFOM, I don't know, but it makes me slightly uneasy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just posting a note to my fellow scum -

I'm still waiting to engage 'Operation Scortched Earth" at earliest possibility.

I'll be looking for the coordinating phrases we discussed last ni

[LimMePls]

What about 'Operation Mispel Second Word And Mismatch Single And Double Quotes"? Looks like you've got that one in full effect.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What about 'Operation Mispel Second Word And Mismatch Single And Double Quotes"? Looks like you've got that one in full effect.

Yes I do. Nothing gets past your razor sharp intellect LMP.

Oh that's right ... you had me as Town.

Lulz

[LlamaFluff]

@LMP - I have no idea how my role is counteracted this game. Maybe there are some wierd scum PRs that directly counters my role like some type of a framer + GF, or this takes a mechanic that ive always wanted to try (scum investigate innocent until they have performed a kill in a PR heavy game).

But all of that could be accomplished with a regular Cop. My understanding of a gunsmith is that they are a cop that gets guilty on vigs. But we don't have a vig this game.

Yeah its what im confused about right now too.

Maybe I would have got a guilty on Saint, maybe there is a framer type role, only thing I feel comfortable ruling out is this is bastard modding and no one has a gun since I dont think Jahudo would do that. The +2 amount of investigators makes more sense though given the cap on revives, it forces us to actually choose which roles are the most useful instead of just blind revives since there is no way we would revive a commuter over a info role. This has to balance somehow, and I think we wont know how until we get more flips, although I would bet we are looking at at least one exotic scum role due to the amount of investigators.

[Locke Lamora]

Llama:

Llama: why haven't you 'solidified' your OGML town-read?

Farside: I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to resurrect Vezo. I just think the other options are better. The way I see it, scum are either going to have to kill confirmed town N6 or take the gamble that they can survive an endgame/near endgame situation with confirmed town around. There's no reason to believe we have a protective role at this stage so consequently there's no reason to believe scum are going to leave confirmed town alive for an endgame situation. Vezo's only really useful if he makes it through N6 without being killed or blocked, which I find incredibly unlikely. Seacore, on the other hand, is guaranteed to be alive through to D7 and he'll be a stronger pro-town force who I'd much rather have around in that kind of situation. Fate will be a lot more useful in a single-day situation than Vezo and that's something that we know we'll get, not something we have a slim chance of getting.

I've been thinking about Farside's points and the one that's a sticking point for me is Llama faking a town result on SGR as gunsmith. Having a town read on someone is one thing, but Llama actively told us Backstage to claim his SGR result if SGR got run up while he was V/LA. And yes, I'm sure this can be claimed to be important for the gambit, which is why this whole softclaim-amnesiac claim-gunsmith gambit bothers me.

Apok: I think Jesse James was referred to in the book but I don't remember him being an actual character. I don't currently have my copy and I can't find anything about him in the book on Google. Anyone else know anything on this?

[Jahudo]

”There were slot machines in the airport. Even at this time of the morning people stood in front of them, feeding them coins. Shadow wondered if there were those who never left the airport, who got off their planes, walked along the jetway into the airport building, and stopped there, trapped by the spinning images and the flashing lights until they had fed their last quarter to the machines, and then, with nothing left, just turned around and got onto the plane back home..”

Resurrection Vote Count

5 Votes Required

Vezokpiraka (5) – Llamafluff, LynchMePls, farside22, Apokalyptika, A Gaggle of Geese
Fate (3) – MagnaofIllusion, OhGodMyLife, WrathChild
Seacore (1) – Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0):

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Sacrifice Vote Count

5 Votes Required

MagnaofIllusion (8) – A Gaggle of Geese, LynchMePls, MagnaofIllusion, WrathChild, Llamafluff, farside22, OhGodMyLife, Locke Lamora
Apokalyptika (1) – MagnaofIllusion

Not Voting (0):

--------------

Lynch Vote Count

5 Votes Required

Farside22 (3) – LynchMePls, OhGodMyLife, Llamafluff
A Gaggle of Geese (1) – MagnaofIllusion
Llamafluff (1) – farside22
OhGodMyLife (1) – WrathChild

Not Voting (3):

A Gaggle of Geese, Locke Lamora, Apokalyptika
--------------

Backstage Vote Count:

Top Four Players Go Backstage

Apokalyptika (7) – LynchMePls, MagnaofIllusion, WrathChild, Llamafluff, farside22, OhGodMyLife, Locke Lamora
A Gaggle of Geese (5) – LynchMePls, WrathChild, farside22, Apokalyptika, Locke Lamora
LynchMePls (3) – LynchMePls, MagnaofIllusion, Llamafluff
OhGodMyLife (2) – Llamafluff, OhGodMyLife
WrathChild (1) – MagnaofIllusion
Farside22 (1) – farside22
Llamafluff (1) – OhGodMyLife
Locke Lamora (1) – Locke Lamora

Not Voting (6):

A Gaggle of Geese x3, WrathChild x1, Apokalyptika x2

Day 5 ends on May 9 at 12:00 PM EST

[WrathChild]

OK, I see LMP, OGML and Lllama on Farside lynch. I only see 1 on Llama or OGML. OGML and Lllama won't budge, Farside won't budge. I'll listen to reason. I still think OGML is lynch worthy scum and we need our non-voters to take a stance. Farside is fighting to live like he is town. I've seen scum lay down and die in his shoes. Let's lynch OGML instead.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Vote: WrathChild

[WrathChild]

Sweet GG thanks. Care to expand?

[farside22]

GG: I think OGML is scum too and I see much involved with Llama on this.

Also

Also, general question: I read the book quickly when I signed up for the game, so I don't remember it perfectly, but was Jesse James ever mentioned? I can't believe I glossed over that bit before, but that's the first name claim that I don't recall and that bothers me.

I can't tell you how much I searched the internet for this myself. I can't find our book, I will have to ask the hubby where he put it last (knowing him he gave it to someone to read). I believe like Apok that he was reference, but I can't recall much about what or anything.

You know the mod did mention that characters and their abilities were not connected. MOI had a claim that somehow fit his character but does Nancy as tracker make sense to anyone? What about Zorya Polunochnaya as watcher? I barely remembered this character myself.

I'm going to go through Llama post points for a moment but one I noted as I skimmed really quickly is how he answered a question with a question, while not answering the question at all.
IE: he has not answer so decided to throw the question back with no response.

[farside22]

Well what do you know Wiki does have Zorya Polunochnaya as a watcher. Mr. Nancy still doesn't fit and neither does his true God name.

[farside22]

He would read as scuumy BUT there are major interaction tells that point to SGR-town is having suspicions about someone?

So you told us backstage to tell people he was town in case you died because....???

Fine... Moi was scummy because he quick hammered Apoc day two without a claim in an obviously L-1 scenario.

Oh that was all your vote was about and you didn't look at the interaction between Ythill and him. Any reason why not?

Not going to lie. I was convinced the role was town, and im still pretty sure he is exactly what he claimed.

Why? You just got through on day 3 convincing everyone how town he was based on a possible extra kill for the scum. So why would you believe it now?

Are you using the arguement that I am scum because OGML is scum here?

I believe Llama town that votes for lurkers but calling OGML town based on his play = Llama scum.
I also believe OGML is scum. He's not even trying. I also explained based on Ythill and his unvote of day 1 on OGML I could see coming from scum trying to save his scum buddy.

MoI as scum taking down SK-Saint wouldnt give him not-mafia credit. So didnt expect it.

Say what? Scum taking down SK helps the scum team. Town taking down SK helps the town. It's null at best.

MoI claimed, role was obvious, it offset everything else. This seems to be one of your only points as much as it keeps coming back.

No it doesn't. There is a rez that offset weak PR's (as you call them, not my opinion).

His role claim was solid and already backed up by a result.

Which he could have faked. The correct results is lynch both (since we could) to see who was lying.

So I've been thinking, and the problem with the Gunsmith claim is that usually gunsmith is supposed to be a weaker version of a cop (ie they can get a false positive). But in this game, we haven't had a vig right? We only had an SK. Which would make the gunsmith a full fledged cop. In other words, in order for a gunsmith to exist, there must exist characters who show up positive but aren't scum . Otherwise it would just be a cop with some inv-immune scum.

So if LF is a gunsmith, where are our false positive players? I hope this makes sense.

Much sense. I know if you read the game I linked (which I created) there was usually a false positive (at least I felt with many of the roles).

To farside, and anyone else who may want to know: The post I was talking about was Night 1 backstage post 64.

I looked at post 64 and that was a post by SGR. I then did an iso of my self and went to post 64 (was shocked at how much I posted by the way) and I asked Saint why he thought Ythill was scum. I think I know what your talking about let me get back to you.

Why not?

I asked you first to explain it. Your the one with a fake claim buddy not me.

As I said, was pretty sure that Sea was a GF type role and saw this as a chance to get him lynched flat out by blustering about my role a little bit. If I was right on it, this would have been a genius move.

Ummm unless I missed something somewhere doesn't all mafia carry a gun? Where is it stated that a GF would not have a gun?

Scum Llama you missed answer this question I asked you:

Also you thought my theory was scummy about MOI but LL followed it up and explained it during day 3 why do you ignore that?

The Night that LLama supposedly investigated LMP he never said anything pro or con in any way shape or form. So why investigate someone you don't have anythign to say to or about?

Another attempt to call me scum because I didnt make the "right" investigation? I already explained my reasoning to investigate LMP. I dont want to start repeting myself even more.

No your saying you wanted to solidify a read on a person . I'm asking why would you not solidify your read on MOI after day 3 and what happened if you believe he was town over LMP.
Oooohhh another question with a question. I really love seeing scum stalling.

[farside22]

Apok: I searched but I could not find what you were talking about. Can you get a quote or link. I did a search by Ythill then looked for you and me and didn't get squat.

[Apokalyptika]

The sentence I'm referring to is "I would rather have you and me create these voting blocks on people like OGML and KK." Anyone else who saw that want to weigh in?

Also, I quickly grabbed a pdf of American Gods to check (bad Apok, I know) and I searched for 'jesse', 'jess', and 'james' and saw nothing about Jesse James. Honestly, though, there are enough characters that scum shouldn't have to make up a random fake claim, so it's probably a null tell.

Wrath, you said something a couple of days ago about me and Fate being killed Night 2...I was lynched, remember?

Damn it all, I'm rereading and processing, I just feel like I'm missing something blindingly obvious.

[Locke Lamora]

Yeah, I don't see why scum would have to fake claim when the characters have been randomised, and I don't see why Llama would pick Jesse James even if he was fake-claiming. It's just a bit strange that his character doesn't feature much in the book, and if your PDF search is accurate, not at all. Perhaps it's in the original author's text version. Can you find any references to Daniel Boone in that PDF?

Those Backstage N1: was it Ythill who originally brought up the idea of Llama being a PR? And have I missed something where the old QTs were shared, or is this something that happened last night?

[farside22]

Question to all: How many scum do you believe are left in the game? Would you agree with MOI's actions yesterday and 9 players alive today that 4 scum are left in the game (including MOI)?

[farside22]

Ah this was the stuff backstage. We were talking about voting blocks. I didn't trust GG day 1 or night 1. I had him on my scum list. I actually had 2 blocks of people on my scum list night 1.
I believed Ythill was town and felt he was the most town out of the other 2 backstage. I don't know why I didn't include LMP but GG was on my scum list that night.

LL: Did you not get links to other nights? I recall Fate Night 2 was given links. Llama you want to put in if you got links?

The first person to mention Llama was a possible PR was Ythill. Apok since you have the link look at post 16

[MagnaofIllusion]

Farside keep up the good work spamming the thread in Fate style hoping volume will overcome logic via repetition! I think it is working.

Farside is clearly not scum.

Since everyone has completely bought my Gaggle distancing I'm now moving my vote to 'obv-scum'

UNVOTE: Gaggle
VOTE: Llama

It was obvious when Ythill put him and Seacore on his auto-Town list that one was scum. Seacore is clear (thanks for lynching him again over OGML Gaggle - it really worked out well for us) so Llama is obv-scum.

Don't let his claim fool you. We've established a traditional of lynching Town PRs in this game (Apok and Seacore, lulz) let's not stop now!

[LimMePls]

Ugh this game.

[Locke Lamora]

Farside: I think 4 remaining is more likely. I don't see MoI outing himself so readily to become obv-sacrifice target if he only had two buddies remaining. I'd rather assume more than less in any case. And no, I wasn't given links. I assume others posted the links for Fate during the N2 QT? I see that Jahudo says links can be posted, but neither you, GG nor Llama posted any N3. I can't have them now, apparently.

[WrathChild]

I was just thinking back to the book and I don't remember a Poker Alice either (Saint). Apok, do you still have the pdf handy to search that?

[LlamaFluff]

He would read as scuumy BUT there are major interaction tells that point to SGR-town is having suspicions about someone?

So you told us backstage to tell people he was town in case you died because....???

Because I took the gambit a little too far in that situation, but it worked like a charm.

Fine... Moi was scummy because he quick hammered Apoc day two without a claim in an obviously L-1 scenario.

Oh that was all your vote was about and you didn't look at the interaction between Ythill and him. Any reason why not?

That reasoning was solid already. Why are you trying to make me waste time at this point by creating a case on someone who has already claimed scum?

Not going to lie. I was convinced the role was town, and im still pretty sure he is exactly what he claimed.

Why? You just got through on day 3 convincing everyone how town he was based on a possible extra kill for the scum. So why would you believe it now?

Because of his watch ability. Also due to think I would expect just MoI + 2 more (you + WC?)

Are you using the arguement that I am scum because OGML is scum here?

I believe Llama town that votes for lurkers but calling OGML town based on his play = Llama scum.
I also believe OGML is scum. He's not even trying. I also explained based on Ythill and his unvote of day 1 on OGML I could see coming from scum trying to save his scum buddy.

So you have never seen me get a town read on someone who most think is scum for what appears to be no apparent reason to most and just go balls out defending that player? I KNOW you have seen me do that before, probably as both mod AND player.

MoI as scum taking down SK-Saint wouldnt give him not-mafia credit. So didnt expect it.

Say what? Scum taking down SK helps the scum team. Town taking down SK helps the town. It's null at best.

*shrug* I just dont see scum starting a PR claim like backup that they are going to possibly have an amazingly hard time backing up for the rest of the game instead of just trying to force a case on someone that they apparently knew was scum.

MoI claimed, role was obvious, it offset everything else. This seems to be one of your only points as much as it keeps coming back.

No it doesn't. There is a rez that offset weak PR's (as you call them, not my opinion).

Theory difference =/= scumtell. Chance of MoI ever getting to use his role was very low, and town has to wait a long time to actually get the PR back, who likely just gets NKed off again. Look at the resurection of vezok, we already dont get a result until day seven from him. A backup compensates for the slow revive ability.

His role claim was solid and already backed up by a result.

Which he could have faked. The correct results is lynch both (since we could) to see who was lying.

Correct move is to lynch the one you think is scum. If you have I got a guilty in this game night one, would your response be "lets lynch both?" no. Thats a stupid move. You lynch who is more likely lying, and if you lynch wrong, sacrafice them the next day.

So I've been thinking, and the problem with the Gunsmith claim is that usually gunsmith is supposed to be a weaker version of a cop (ie they can get a false positive). But in this game, we haven't had a vig right? We only had an SK. Which would make the gunsmith a full fledged cop. In other words, in order for a gunsmith to exist, there must exist characters who show up positive but aren't scum . Otherwise it would just be a cop with some inv-immune scum.

So if LF is a gunsmith, where are our false positive players? I hope this makes sense.

Much sense. I know if you read the game I linked (which I created) there was usually a false positive (at least I felt with many of the roles).

Like I said, there can be things like framer to create false-positives (which there may be given how much farside is trying to make me investigate specific players) or GF type role to create false-negatives. We dont know what is there to offset my role until later, with no apparent vig or cop, it allows for a bunch of odd roles that I have considered using in my games in the past (framer that perminant frames, scum that always is innocent unless killing, etc).

As I said, was pretty sure that Sea was a GF type role and saw this as a chance to get him lynched flat out by blustering about my role a little bit. If I was right on it, this would have been a genius move.

Ummm unless I missed something somewhere doesn't all mafia carry a gun? Where is it stated that a GF would not have a gun?

GF usually investigates innocent to all types of cops, including gunsmith. I would be stunned if a GF investigated guilty to me.

Also you thought my theory was scummy about MOI but LL followed it up and explained it during day 3 why do you ignore that?

The Night that LLama supposedly investigated LMP he never said anything pro or con in any way shape or form. So why investigate someone you don't have anythign to say to or about?

Why would I have said anything pro or con backstage? What do I gain from alerting three players (at least one of whom is scum) to who im about to investigate? LMP was a good investigation, he is a solid player who really was regarded as null to most players, meaning the result on him is extremely useful late in the game.

Another attempt to call me scum because I didnt make the "right" investigation? I already explained my reasoning to investigate LMP. I dont want to start repeting myself even more.

No your saying you wanted to solidify a read on a person . I'm asking why would you not solidify your read on MOI after day 3 and what happened if you believe he was town over LMP.
Oooohhh another question with a question. I really love seeing scum stalling.

So am I seriously scum now for not using the EXACT same reasoning behind my investigations every night? LMP was someone I saw lurking and as a decent player, I wanted that alignment that night, so I looked there.

Going to change my mind on one other thing too about revive given what I just said

Vezok we wouldnt get back with a result until D7, if vezok is still alive. Given that we are probably a day out of a lylo situation, im actually going to do a 180 and say Fate back can do more instant damage to scum, also due to what I know about revives. See the UPick-ish game I just ran, two VI-ish player die early, get revived about 50 pages in and just did nothing until they died again. I think Fate would actually be better here.

unrevive
Revive Fate

@Other - MAKE A VOTING STANCE ON ME OR FARSIDE