Nintendo Mafia (Game Over)

[Pinky and the Brain]

Spoiler tags basically sum up what I say in the spoilers - thil is scum, don't lynch Ythan, thil is scum, etc.

Spoiler: @ The Master Hand (also stuff saying thil is scum)

Yet when you're then attacked the next day, your answer is "anything I have to say would be taken as scummy to you"?

That's not the attitude of a cop.

You're justifying the vote on thil by saying "that's not how a cop would play".
Which is a crappy excuse. We're not talking about how roles interact.
We're talking about how PEOPLE interact.
And thil isn't your average good player on mafia. Sorry. You're expecting him to play godlike because he's cop. Being a cop does not mean you must play godlike. It means that when you get a guilty you get a Mo-Fo lynched. Simple as that.

Perhaps I phrased it badly, but the gist of what I was trying to say was that, essentially, he's scummy, and his fake-claim does not match up with his behaviour.

I am not expecting him to play amazingly or 'godlike' if he were the cop. I am expecting people who are town-aligned to not play scummy, regardless of their role (with perhaps the exception of people who know what they are doing and play just scummy enough to avoid NKs with a strong PR). He is scummy, so I think he is scum. It'd be the same if he claimed to be a VT. He is scummy, he is probably scum. He's going to claim "oops RB'd teehee" for the rest of the game anyway, so for all intents and purposes he may as well be a claimed VT.

See, but he's not going to get any incorrect results - he's not going to get any, period. Either he's going to continue the 'OH I WAS ROLEBLOCKED' charade, or if he's actually town he's just going to continue to be roleblocked.

I beg to differ. He'll pull results if he's scum and confident in his non-death.
No one gets a free pass. Saying someone does is bullshit.
Yaaaay misrep?

What?

If I were thil-scum, I would never pull results from this point onwards unless perhaps a scum RB flipped. It's quite clear people are letting him live simply through virtue of him not being CC'd. He never needs to fake any result, because he's going to be allowed to live.

What you're saying is that if he's scum, he's going to fake results, yet if he was town, he'd continue to be roleblocked, so claiming results would be equivalent to a scum-claim. Not gonna happen.

No, I'm just ignoring your claim for now. You thought thil was scum albeit the claim; same here. Doc claim does nothing for you IMO.

Okay, ignoring thil's claim, is he still a town-read?

Spoiler: @ other people (also, let's not lynch Ythan. Oh, and thil is scum)

now see three options:

1) lynching Ythan.
2) lynching dana.
3) pulling a shot in the dark and lynch one of your FoS's, hopping we will be lucky and hit a strong scum hidden in the bloc. Risky move.

umm wat.

Remind me why we can lynch Ythan but not thil.

Because you failed to get us to believe in your unsaid information, you had to think of something to claim to either:
1) Get a counterclaimed of a PR
2) Have people believe you
Obviously, none of us were believing you were a cop counterclaiming, so you wouldn't have claimed that. Doctor would either get someone to counter claim or you get off scotch free. Sadly it didn't work like that. Your information saying Thil = scum, was nothing more then WIFOM. I would risk losing you as a doctor even without a counterclaim.

Vote Ythan

umm wat.

People who think Ythan is scum and thil is town: Ythan-scum WOULD HAVE CC'd thil-town. He was pushing thil's lynch hard, a lot of people seemed to think he was hinting at a cop CC and were willing to buy it, yet he claims doc.

Ythan-scum would know he would be looked at closely following a tunnel on un-CC'd cop thil-town flip, so he would have gone for broke with the CC.

Even with thil-scum, it's probably more likely Ythan-scum would have CC'd for huge town-cred with a thil-scum flip.

@Ythan: ok, a suggestion. Sit in front of a mirror, repeat 50 times the sentence "you were an idiot", then come back and tell me: do you still want to lynch thil?

DAMNIT WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND

thil is scummy REGARDLESS of Ythan's antics. Pretend what Ythan did never happened. THIL IS STILL SCUM.

Spoiler: @ thil (who is scum, read on)

However, I don't think Ythan would be the best lynch, sure he dies, but if he really is the doctor, that leaves me out in the firing line. I'm not entirely convinced that Ythan is scum, just completely arrogant.

Okay, who do we lynch? And why are you still not voting?

WHY HAVE YOU NOT VOTED ALL DAY?!

All you have been doing is pointing every last detail about my actions, call them scummy, and dismiss what I say and label it scummy posting. I would say YOU sir, are being disingenuous.

Honestly, I say both, because I would now say he is scum, and lying to kill off a PR. His severe tunneling and attacking of me is almost out of the blue, and the reasons against it he is completely ignoring. He has just been non-stop attacking me with points against me, and has almost entirely ignored my defense. The problem is,

he's succeeding.

I expect you to know the consequences of playing a deplorably scummy game.

And yet you don't want to lynch Ythan and also have not voted for him

ALL GAME

?


And thil, why you dodging this?

C, a counter claim should be outright and not just a small hint. Counter claiming is a big move that will show who is scum and who isn't. The fact that he sort of played around it didn't make me think he was cop.

Besides, I already AM the cop

.

Pine, it would be no surprise to me if there were more than one cop with the amount of people that signed up for this, so unless the mod wanted to put in every obscure role, he may have doubled roles, but that's just what I think. There very well could be another cop, or more than one doctor/vig/whatever.

thil, don't these contradict each other? Leaving aside the

way

in which Ythan would have been allegedly breadcrumbing/soft-CC'ing, you're saying that you are

the

[implying one and only]

cop

(as an additional reason for doubting a Ythan cop counter-claim), yet earlier you said you wouldn't be suprised with more than one cop.

Prefer dana to Ythan if it has to be one of those two. Even still, dana's posting has been reading as more town recently. But with 4 days, it looks really unlikely I'm going to get my thil-scum lynch. >>

I am willing to switch over to the dana (who is L-2 atm) wagon if by tomorrow the thil wagon is still depressingly failing.

~ Hopp

[Kdub]

You really are ignoring everything I've said, aren't you? THIS ISN'T A DEFEATIST ATTITUDE, NOR IS IT TOWN GIVING UP EASILY. I have looked at the way the game is going, and with this day having gone on for quite a while already, the only wagons picking up any kind of steam are mine and Ythan's. I WANT people to lynch me over Ythan. It's not even remotely like "I don't want you to lynch me, but you're going to apparently, so I'll just give up". That's why you won't find any past evidence of me doing that, which I bet you figured on anyway.

...

At any rate, it looks like I'm going to be mislynched at this point, and that's fine with me, really. I'm probably the best mislynch there is.

So you are "fine" with being lynched, and that's not giving up easily? I haven't seen town accept their own lynch except in cases where there is absolutely nothing that can prevent it (e.g. false role-related info that condemns them). That wasn't (and even now, still isn't) the case with you here.

[lewarcher82]

Remind me why we can lynch Ythan but not thil.

I have already written what I now think of Ythan, but here is a new formulation of my point of view, which I challenge you to contraddict. Ythan has been on site for two years, you guys will not get me to believe he has possibly thought that his night actions implied thil is scum. I don't buy it.

I simply see no reasons to lynch thil. I don't agree with the cases on him and when I voted him, I was convinced that Ythan was going to claim something very different and much more compelling. I will not support a thil lynch under this circumstances.

@Dekes: your level of contribution is causing me serious concerns, especially if compared with your town meta.

[danakillsu]

So you are "fine" with being lynched, and that's not giving up easily? I haven't seen town accept their own lynch except in cases where there is absolutely nothing that can prevent it (e.g. false role-related info that condemns them). That wasn't (and even now, still isn't) the case with you here.

No. That's not giving up at all. There's nothing to give up. I don't want the only thing I have (my life) if it means getting Ythan killed, and right now it looks like that's what it means. If you haven't seen vanilla town self-sacrifice to save a PR-claiming townread, then you've only seen stupid vanilla town in that position, imo.

V/LA as noted in sig.

[Pinky and the Brain]

Remind me why we can lynch Ythan but not thil.

I have already written what I now think of Ythan, but here is a new formulation of my point of view, which I challenge you to contraddict. Ythan has been on site for two years, you guys will not get me to believe he has possibly thought that his night actions implied thil is scum. I don't buy it.

I simply see no reasons to lynch thil. I don't agree with the cases on him and when I voted him, I was convinced that Ythan was going to claim something very different and much more compelling. I will not support a thil lynch under this circumstances.

So, you don't think it's a possibility Ythan-town thought his night actions meant thil-scum, yet you do think it's a possibility Ythan-scum thought he could convince us that his night actions meant thil-scum? Using the very same night actions you

don't

think Ythan-town would have thought meant thil-scum? So you're basically saying Ythan-scum didn't even bother thinking through his fake night actions at all?

Ythan-town and Ythan-scum are the same player, both have been on the site for two years. If you don't think that Ythan-town would have thought his night actions = thil scum lynch, then you can't possibly think that Ythan-scum would have thought his fake night actions = thil cop mislynch.

Somebody tell me why Ythan-scum would have come out with his doctor night-action derp.


Let me summarise thil's play today for you.

• "I'M NOT SCUM, I PINKY-SWEAR"
  
• "YTHAN YOU ARE SCUMMY"
  
• <notable absence of Ythan vote - any vote, in fact>
  
• "ACTUALLY LET'S NOT LYNCH YTHAN"

[Ythan]

I'm going to post daily so I don't get close to a prod.

[Dekes]

@Dekes: your level of contribution is causing me serious concerns, especially if compared with your town meta.

Tell me about it. I never felt so apathetic towards a mafia game.

Anyways, expect a post once I'm sobered up.

[DemonHybrid]

So, just to make sure I'm catching up properly, the only claim we have on the table is thil's cop claim, am I correct? He claimed roleblocked at the beginning of this day?

Espeonage (replaced by Pine) flipped scum. Lucresia (replacedy by chkflip and then E_Lou_Sive, who couldn't get a post in) flipped scum as well. chkflip voted for thil before he claimed, Pine afterwards.

I think it'd be most useful to analyze Espeonage in this situation; he's had the most interaction and the least amount of lurkiness out of all of these replacements/players. I'll do an ISO. I look at early-game interactions much more carefully than a lot of other people do; that's where the treasure chest of faked reactions is in most cases.

You guys are going to have to hold my hand as I try to catch up fully; this is tough to do.

[Kdub]

If you haven't seen vanilla town self-sacrifice to save a PR-claiming townread, then you've only seen stupid vanilla town in that position, imo.

No, I can't say I've seen that, and I doubt it is very common. I happen to think Ythan is town too, but if I were a VT, I would never sacrifice myself if it were between him and me. You know why? Because 1) I know that I am town whereas there is a chance, even if small, that he is scum, and 2) me getting lynched wouldn't remove pressure on him given the nature of the accusations he is facing. You're not going to convince anybody that sacrificing yourself is a reasonable town play, which is why it looks like a gambit to me.

So, just to make sure I'm catching up properly, the only claim we have on the table is thil's cop claim, am I correct? He claimed roleblocked at the beginning of this day?

Ythan claimed doctor.

[DemonHybrid]

Sufficiently outvested in this game to just do this now and see what happens.

Peach. Doctor a la SMRPG. Protected RC n1. And n2. Sent an RC protection n3 but deleted the PM and begrudgingly sent in a protection on the claimed cop after his target flipped goon and not x mafia goon. And the unoutstanding RC was killed rather than the claimed cop.

Ah, alright. Things make a bit more sense.

Alright, I'll get back to you with that Espy ISO tomorrow; I need some sleep. Sorry it took me so long to get into this game. I had to take care of a ton of other things first.

[crazypianist1116]

Request Replacement

Can't keep up with the game during my two weeks of finals. If you want to wait till the 8th for me to get back into then I can do that, but I really won't be posting till then.

[lewarcher82]

Dekes, we should have about 1 day and 6 hours to deadline. Please do get sober up.

@pinky: and that is the tricky point!!! Ythan's reasonment would only be valid if scum had a way to know whom the doc is protecting. And scum-ythan may have invented the whole story knowing that scum has a way to know (driver, scum tracker, scum watcher), without realising that only scum could know if scum knows. I am sorry for the way I am expressing this concept, but it turned out to be harder writing it in English than thinking it in Italian :-/

[Ythan]

Ythan's reasonment would only be valid if scum had a way to know whom the doc is protecting.

Like a failed kill n1?

[lewarcher82]

Ythan's reasonment would only be valid if scum had a way to know whom the doc is protecting.

Like a failed kill n1?

sorry, I don't understand.

[Ythan]

Kind of obvious where the protection went when your target is alive in the morning.

[lewarcher82]

Kind of obvious where the protection went when your target is alive in the morning.

oh I see. So you presume that since doc saved RC on n1, they wouldn't have shot him anymore unless they knew doc was on someone else? Answer these questions:

1) what has this to do with the player you moved your protection to (thil)?
2) how do you know that RC was the victim of scum last night?
3) we evidently have three killing role, all three failed to kill on n1. How do you know that the RC kill you prevented was coming from scum and not from a SK or a VIG or any similar role?
4) or are you assuming that all the 3 roles on n1 tried to kill the player you claim to have protected?
5) if the answer to point 4 is no, then there are other protectve mechanics. You realise that their existence makes your al analysis flawed from the very beginning?

[Ythan]

Oh, no, I thought you meant who the doctor was protecting as in who I had been protecting. My bad.

1 Did that clear it up?
2 Jmj hasn't been very consistent but if you iso him all dead townies were killed by burns while scum was killed with a different mo.
3 I don't think Hohum and RC were killed by separate factions. There are any number of possible explanations for why there were two scumkills.
4 ^
5 ^^

[lewarcher82]

so you think scum has 2 kills and both were blocked on n1... so tell me, are you a double doc? otherwise there must be further protective mechanics, /goto #1440 question 5.

[GhostWriter]

Judging by the fact that there was only 1 kill N2, if the mafia have 2 kills, one's probably normal, the other could be a 1-shot, like with a mafia JOAT.

[Ythan]

There are any number of possible explanations for why there were two scumkills.

This is a true statement lew and unless you have some reason to think that there are specifically two doctors you're talking out of your ass.

[lewarcher82]

I still don't believe it, GW: hohum was a scummy player who tried to lynch claimed cop over claimed vt. I don't think scum would kill hohum.

Besides, if you *really* ISO'd jmj, you'd notice that only the two people dead last night have energy burns. Smashbro does not. But he was not "slashed" either. So we have someone who slashes, someone who simply kills and scum with energy-weapon? It makes three killing roles again, two of which killed on n3, the third on n1 only... mmmmh

Summary: I don't think this is the case for two reasons:
1) hohum was scummy;
2) your analysis of the death-flavours is uncomplete, and analysing smash's death scene, people still die in 3 different ways, not two, but the overall scenario would make no sense.

P-EDIT: no, I do not think that there are two doctors, I just think there may be more "protective mechanics". I have a different idea about the distributions of deaths. I think someone has nk-immunity, prolly a SK, and I think one of the killing roles is town-aligned and may have decided not to shoot all nights. A targeted SK with nk immunity is the best and more economic explanation for several killing parties and relatively few night deaths.

[Ythan]

Mod, could you update the first post to include kill flavor? You included it with the death scenes.

This is why I think all town kills were from one source.

[lewarcher82]

Mod, could you update the first post to include kill flavor? You included it with the death scenes.

Seconded.

[jmj3000]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 7

danakillsu

- 5 - Kdub, esuriospiritus, GhostWriter, Dekes, Ythan - (L-2)

Kdub

- 1 - danakillsu - (L-6)

thil13

- 2 - Pinky and the Brain, Crazypianist1116 - (L-5)

Ythan

- 3 - The Master Hand, lewarcher82, Bunnylover - (L-4)

Players not voting: DemonHybrid, thil13

Searching for a replacement for crazypianist.

(expired on 2011-06-06 05:00:00)

Y'all let me know if there are any errors.

[Kdub]

Prodded. I've already made it clear that I will not support a Ythan or thil lynch today. Barring any major revelations, I'm sticking with a dana lynch.

Regarding the speculation on kill flavors and number of kills, I still do not see how that implies anything about thil's alignment, which is what this whole thing came out of. Beyond that, I suppose we'll find out more after seeing what happens tonight, but I don't think it's productive discuss it further right now.