A Gentleman's Game of Guile, Subterfuge, and Intrigue (Fin)

[jilynne1991]

I don't know why, but something about Feysal leads me to conclude that Lord_hur is townie.

I do want to post a case anyways even if just to get my thoughts out there and stuff, but I'm on the verge of unvoting Lord_hur.

Btw, do you guys know how to quote multiple things without copy and pasting and drafting like 5x? (Since, somehow, I'm not figuring it out.)

[jilynne1991]

Holy... I was not accusing you, I was asking questions to make sense of one incredibly imprecise statement! You're voting people for asking questions now?

And you didn't answer my perfectly logical and sensible question, so I will reiterate : if it is not that my intent didn't match my words (which, by the way, was the most logical interpretation of your accusation, especially because of alternatives not making any sense to me, see below), what makes you say it is more likely to be made by scum? Because :

(ie. you were frustrated at being caught as scum, but you felt that the reason that you were caught as scum is completely ridiculous).

I am (utterly) frustrated, as town, for being voted for completely ridiculous reasons. You will have to explain me the very, very subtle difference...

I'm going to have to agree with Hoppster, even before I saw his comment, I thought what you thought was that you were really frustrated but for being caught for a horrible reason.

[lord_hur]

I appreciated the gentlemanly tone of this message, that was not charged with unnecessary aggressiveness. I will thus do the same. I admit you were always, in this matter, better than me, I fear. I will apologize posthumously to you about this if you are truly a gentleman (and at the same time lash at you in fury for using, in my opinion, despisable methods).

Whatever. I just said this to clarify my stance about you when I flip town.

What ho? So, they possess the attributes of reasons now, but won't have that formality at a later date?

No, sir. Simply, when I flip town, I wish other gentlemen to know that I suspected you strongly of building a bogus case on me, and did not express it solely motivated by desire to not get executed.

lord_hur, if you never get lynched as a true gentleman, why do you think that it is, that you are close to a lynch right now? Your entire carriage cannot be solely comprised of dastardly rapscallions.

Nearly one third of us are rapscallions, sir. This makes it very easy to get a gentleman executed. Also, we have a lady of little experience in the matter that I strongly suspect is town, two people that claim to believe me but will not try to build an alternate case (which is quite suspicious, in my opinion, especially for Sir inHimshallibe, who was quite vehement ; Sir Feysal, I see, greatly alleviate my fears by doing so before I talked about it), and one person who would likely say the sky is red. At any rate, there is no alternative presented to my execution. Explain me how I could hope to not be executed?

[ToastyToast]

I assure you that if you flip town I will take a second look at AV. But at this moment I don't think that you will flip town. Hence, my vote on you. Scum often try to disguise motivation in fancy, long posting, but I find AV's posts and argument to be more convincing than your defense.

Your best bet (in my opinion) would be to make full cases on imaginality and AV

[jilynne1991]

Hmmm, the first part of ToastyToast's is something I would agree with, but the thing is I find AV's posts more...true.

I'd agree with the second part too! In fact, I'm very interested in seeing those. If you can find some convincing mistakes in AV's reasoning, I'd be glad to take off my vote. Right now, you're kind of leaning scum for me...but Feysal's got me pretty well convinced.

[lord_hur]

Holy... I was not accusing you, I was asking questions to make sense of one incredibly imprecise statement! You're voting people for asking questions now?

And you didn't answer my perfectly logical and sensible question, so I will reiterate : if it is not that my intent didn't match my words (which, by the way, was the most logical interpretation of your accusation, especially because of alternatives not making any sense to me, see below), what makes you say it is more likely to be made by scum? Because :

(ie. you were frustrated at being caught as scum, but you felt that the reason that you were caught as scum is completely ridiculous).

I am (utterly) frustrated, as town, for being voted for completely ridiculous reasons. You will have to explain me the very, very subtle difference...

I'm going to have to agree with Hoppster, even before I saw his comment, I thought what you thought was that you were really frustrated but for being caught for a horrible reason.

Indeed milady, I was frustrated for being voted for reasons that I found to be completely unreasonable, just like since I started being verbally attacked. Please explain the difference between "scum frustrated for being caught but for a horrible reason" and "town frustrated for being voted for a horrible reason". Objectively (that is, imagining me as possible rogue), I cannot see it.

[Reya Cookiebringer]

I'm here less free time than I thought I would have I will really try not to be replaced though.

[lord_hur]

I'd agree with the second part too! In fact, I'm very interested in seeing those. If you can find some convincing mistakes in AV's reasoning, I'd be glad to take off my vote. Right now, you're kind of leaning scum for me...but Feysal's got me pretty well convinced.

You are asking me to delve again in the fetid swamp of his extended assault against me? It is reasonable of you, but my stomach twists at the mere thought...

Well, rereading it, it seems to me that I answered to all of Sir AurorusVox's expressed concerns about me (except maybe his last lengthy attack against me, which I refused to answer to cease what was mostly repetition). I'd say his main point is for me to not question Sir Hoppster's word of not laying a trap, while I affirm I did not because there is not any possible underlying roguish interest in lying about it, since I myself (on two occasions in my last lodge only) often use traps as a gentlemanly strategy.

Nearly all the rest is derived, and explanation about, this accusation. So, I could not discern any of Sir AurorusVox's reasoning that still holds. If I missed anything, please point me to it, and I will explain.

Since you asked for mistakes in Sir AurorusVox's reasoning, there are also a few reasoning faults, that quite triggered my indignation :

Yes, I knew that it would make me look scummy, but I posted it anyway because it represented what I felt.

But why, sir, would it make you look rougish if it was, in fact, a correct proposition?

It can be viewed as OMGUS.

Good sir, that isn't the accusation that TT has levelled at you. He has found a different reason for recoiling from your post.

He asks me why I messaged it anyway if I found it suspcious. I then answered that it is because he thought that would be seen as "OMGUS", and then he attacks me again saying that it was not what Sir Toastytoast suspected me of, while it is clearly not what he asked of me.

Or this :

It could have been a trap, but I did not intend it as such. I am not suspecting Sir inHimshallibe enough.

Sir AurorusVox is obviously very smart. How could he not understand that this means I did not suspect inHimshallibe enough to try to trap him? Yet, he questions me about it, making two propositions that are not like what I said.


@AurorusVox: I am in the process of possibly reevaluating my stance towards you, sir. And... er... I indeed apologize for the tone of some of the answers I gave you, if you are a true gentleman. Anger and frustration had, I fear, too much of a grasp on me. I have a few questions for you, if you will answer them:
- Did you ever use traps as town?
- Do you have any way for me to ascertain your willingness to pursue doggedly your suspects, before or during your lenghty attack at me? Or maybe in a previous lodge?

[jilynne1991]

Sorry, Lord_hur for all that extra trouble. For me the difference between scum being caught for a bad reason and town being caught for a bad reason is that scum is way more frustrated.

I do have a slightly scum to almost null read on you.

[Hoppster]

What is this? 4 days until deadline?

It's a rather abrupt change from me, I'll admit that, but I am thinking perhaps it would be better to send Reya Cookiebringer to the firing squad.

Some of lord_hur's posts have me doubting myself - for example, the 'never lynched as town before' stunt.

I have never seen scum do these type of 'gambits', where the person's personal history/integrity comes into it.

I'm not articulating my thoughts in a satisfactory manner, but I do hope you can see what I mean.


Reya Cookiebringer, on the other hand, has contributed nothing to this discussion, and their determination not to replace out makes me suspect it is more likely to be a scum-slot. In a town-slot, once you're that far behind, it's more difficult to motivate yourself and get caught back up; but in a scum-slot, lurking under suspicion, you'd be more reluctant to replace out (or so goes my theory).

[AurorusVox]

Sorry dear fellow guests, I have been piled under a truckload of volumes recently, and have had little time for frivolities. Here are my most recent musings;

I don't know why, but something about Feysal leads me to conclude that Lord_hur is townie.

Right now, you're kind of leaning scum for me...but Feysal's got me pretty well convinced.

Baroness Jilynne, can you please clarify how certain you are of lord_hur being a dastardly rogue? On the one hand, your posts seem to say with some considerable strength ("conclude", "pretty well convinced") that you believe him to be a true gentleman; yet on the other, you sound unsure and in fact find him a rapscallion ("I don't know why", "kind of leaning scum") - plus, it should of course be noted that you are still voting for him.

---

It's a rather abrupt change from me, I'll admit that, but I am thinking perhaps it would be better to send Reya Cookiebringer to the firing squad.

If there is no support to get lord_hur swinging today - and by that I mean we

honestly

cannot cobble together the required ballots - then I will offer my hand in this matter.

---

I don't like the second part of your reasoning. Why should we

focus

on lynching people who contribute less? Is lurking a scumtell for you, or is it null?

Definitely a scumtell. I've been part of enough many towns that lost because of infighting to say this. One good example is Cold War Mafia which just ended, where both scum teams spent day one lurking, while the town was tearing its own guts. I also know that I tend to lurk myself as scum, since I can't seem to summon the same enthusiasm as when I'm town.

I myself find the lurking to be null, since I have seen numerous townies do as much, and have found myself sparse for time in many occasions. I can see the logic behind lurking as scum, but I feel that it would be imprudent to ignore the (il)logic of lurking as town also. That said, as I expressed to Sir Hoppster, Reya is a fine compromise vote if we truly cannot see lord_hur in the gallows.

Also, on the site I moved here from, there is an epidemic of suspecting and lynching active players, and I'm seeing the same symptoms here. Active players such as Lord Hur tend to stand out, especially if they have controversial ideas or suspects, and may end up being wrongly suspected simply because of it. Add confirmation bias and plain stubbornness, and you have the makings of a mislynch. By that point all you need is some lazy townies or scum to vote with the majority.

I fully understand the doubts here, yet I am truly convinced he is a rogue, as opposed to myself being stubborn. From your point of view, I can see why that might be frustrating, should you truly be a gentleman with a gentleman's read on lord_hur.

If you think we're engaged in TvT, do you think that lord_hur isn't misrepping me in places? Because I sure do, and that's a sure marker of scum in my opinion.

Fair enough, you can suspect him if you think his trust implied knowledge of Hoppster's alignment, but I don't think this was a misrep.

Still, I have to grant you that you did give some reasons for your vote in the same post you voted, so perhaps this one is a mild misrep, though I don't think it is nearly so extreme.

I acknowledge these responses and settle for agreeing on a difference of opinion.

Your past performance is not a reliable indicator either way on whether you've caught mafia now.

I can agree with this much. I did feel that lord_hur was trying to smear me by picking through my voting record, and I was keen to indicate back to him that should one wish to be selective with their searchings, one can paint anyone in any light. "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" after all.

If you say you're persistently tunnelling him that is not so far from the truth. Deadline is in six days, and apart from Lord Hur, we seem to have no potential lynches to speak of.

Well I truly believe that there is a significant difference between pursuing someone whilst seeing nothing to deflect you from your path; and saying that you will ignore everything raised against you and your ideas of that person being a rapscallion.

Perhaps I should try to remedy that:

Vote: imaginality

I just read through his posts, and there is not all that much there. He agreed with the vezokpiraka policy lynch, made the case on kr0b (incidentally, this means that it is very unlikely for both him and kr0b/ToastyToast to be mafia), defended Twistedspoon with meta, but ended the day by sealing his execution. It is this last action that seems most peculiar, and today he has been mostly inactive. His V/LA ended two days ago, and he has not been seen since.

Can I ask why imaginality over the Cookie Monster? Reya has "not been seen" for much longer.

Also; "so don't" rubs me up the wrong way. Why is your town read worth more than five peoples' scumreads?

It's mine. The five other people can be wrong, or they can be scum. What would be the point of having town reads if I just let them be lynched without comment? I could be wrong myself of course, but that is no reason to blindly follow the majority. Maybe at deadline if there was no better choice, but we're not there yet.

I will explain why this "rubbed me up the wrong way"; I have fears with the post I responded to in the quote herein, that it was a working example of the process known as Impersonating a Saintly Gentleman at War; or "White Knighting". If lord_hur flips town, you would naturally look excellent by extension. Your "1 vs 5" stance here conveys you as a hero, and being solely responsible for preventing a mislynch - should it be as much, that is. Of course, this is but one interpretation of events. I am not entirely convinced that it's an accurate assessment myself, but it has been one of the first twinges of repugnance that I have felt for your communications, and I had wanted my voice to be heard, lest I should perish before the morrow.

---

He asks me why I messaged it anyway if I found it suspcious. I then answered that it is because he thought that would be seen as "OMGUS", and then he attacks me again saying that it was not what Sir Toastytoast suspected me of, while it is clearly not what he asked of me.

I know that this matter is beside the point now, but my whole argument with this line of questioning was that you claimed that you knew you were acting suspiciously, and used that foreknowledge to neuter Toasty's accusation against you, saying that you were a true gentleman behind the rougishness of your post that TT had discerned; and yet, ToastyToast found you suspicious for something else. As such, your perception of you coming across as a rapscallion due to "Oh Good Heavens, You Are Most Incompetent!" (OGHYAMI) was meaningless is addressing TT's suspicions. That is to say, I perceive you as trying to draw attention away from the different, legitimate displeasure that TT felt towards your play by pointing at something else entirely. And that is why I cursed at you for a break with TT's original suspicions.

It could have been a trap, but I did not intend it as such. I am not suspecting Sir inHimshallibe enough.

Sir AurorusVox is obviously very smart. How could he not understand that this means I did not suspect inHimshallibe enough to try to trap him? Yet, he questions me about it, making two propositions that are not like what I said.

Perhaps too smart in this instance, I fear. "I am not suspecting Sir inHimshallibe enough" is not a (fully) grammatically correct sentence; if we read that sentence in isolation

as it is

it could indicate that you feel that you should suspect him more - hence my questioning.

@AurorusVox: I am in the process of possibly reevaluating my stance towards you, sir. And... er... I indeed apologize for the tone of some of the answers I gave you, if you are a true gentleman. Anger and frustration had, I fear, too much of a grasp on me. I have a few questions for you, if you will answer them:
- Did you ever use traps as town?
- Do you have any way for me to ascertain your willingness to pursue doggedly your suspects, before or during your lenghty attack at me? Or maybe in a previous lodge?

1) I most certainly do. I believe my string of questions about why you felt you were suspicious was a sort of trap. However, my concern with you was not to do with the act of trapping or otherwise. It was with you being suspicious of Sir Hoppster, and yet immediately believing his word when he said it was not a trap.

2) I spent most of TxtMafia ranting about Chamber being scum but was wrong (one of my worst games) so I know it has its drawbacks; I honed in on ExeCultLeader (thought he was scum though, oops) and tried to get him lynched (town insisted on mislynching someone else) in CvM mafia which was the first baby steps of the doggedness; I thought I'd caught Fate out as scum with my ability (it wasn't anything too concrete, just some things were slightly off with when abilities were claimed to have been used) in Advance Wars, and though he claimed SpecialFateGambittz + bussed

both

his partners with fake cop reports + no one else wanting to lynch him, I still stuck at it until he killed me off (and yeah, he was scum). Gradual progression.

[lord_hur]

1) I most certainly do. I believe my string of questions about why you felt you were suspicious was a sort of trap. However, my concern with you was not to do with the act of trapping or otherwise. It was with you being suspicious of Sir Hoppster, and yet immediately believing his word when he said it was not a trap.

2) I spent most of TxtMafia ranting about Chamber being scum but was wrong (one of my worst games) so I know it has its drawbacks; I honed in on ExeCultLeader (thought he was scum though, oops) and tried to get him lynched (town insisted on mislynching someone else) in CvM mafia which was the first baby steps of the doggedness; I thought I'd caught Fate out as scum with my ability (it wasn't anything too concrete, just some things were slightly off with when abilities were claimed to have been used) in Advance Wars, and though he claimed SpecialFateGambittz + bussed

both

his partners with fake cop reports + no one else wanting to lynch him, I still stuck at it until he killed me off (and yeah, he was scum). Gradual progression.

1. Actually, I was trying to determine if you really believe in this "concern", since I don't believe in it at all (and find it quite ridiculous, actually). Scum only lie to hide what they have an interest in hiding (at least, that's how I play as scum, and I have trouble picturing any scum doing otherwise), or they would be caught lying soon enough, so I was trying to see if you really thought traps are worth hiding.
Since you use them all the time as town, you see them as neutral, so the answer is no. Why then voting someone for believing an affirmation, when there is no reason for him to suspect anything in it in the first place?
I don't really make sense of your accusation, thus I can't put aside the thought that it was contrived. If you just were town caught in confirmation bias who jumped on a seductive at first argument, I think you'd have admitted the fault in your reasoning a long time ago.

2. One of the things that disturb me about you is that you go on and on against me, without any doubt whatsovever, never looking in another player's direction. Usually when I build a case, I come across a few things that are in favor of my suspect, or I doubt it at some point. You never espressed any of this, in any way. You said this was because of your bad lynching record, and that could explain it quite well, BUT... this only came after I brought up the subject. I was trying to see if you really thought about this before I talked about it, or if you just used it on the spot as a convenient excuse.

Well, I have trouble understanding your answer, I must admit, but maybe I wasn't precise enough in my wording?

[ToastyToast]

This game seems to be going in cicles now...If no1 is willing to hammer lord_hur, then I guess switching to Reya would be a good compromise. Still, I have a feeling this argument is just going to continue tomorrow if we do that...

[lord_hur]

Only 4 days, really? Damn...

Well, I'd lynch Reya Cookiebringer of course, if the alternative is me. But why him?

[ToastyToast]

Only 4 days, really? Damn...
Well, I'd lynch Reya Cookiebringer of course, if the alternative is me. But why him?

Reya has absolutely no presence in this game, which is both troubling and a detriment to town. Don't get me wrong, there are people I would rather lynch, but I don't see this game moving anywhere.

[inHimshallibe]

I concur with the other gentlemen. To be quite honest, I'm not very heavily invested into the game right now as it grinds to a wall-tastic halt.

[Hoppster]

This game seems to be going in cicles now...If no1 is willing to hammer lord_hur, then I guess switching to Reya would be a good compromise. Still, I have a feeling this argument is just going to continue tomorrow if we do that...

We will at least have a NK to go off.

Omniscient One: Would you please announce the current standings in the ballot?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reya

I think there's enough support for this... 6 to lynch, with AV, lord_hur & TT offering moral support, inHim already voting Reya, we only need one more.

Going to have to be quick though. Deadline is the 7th...

Only 4 days, really? Damn...

Well, I'd lynch Reya Cookiebringer of course, if the alternative is me. But why him?

"Reya Cookiebringer, on the other hand, has contributed nothing to this discussion, and their determination not to replace out makes me suspect it is more likely to be a scum-slot. In a town-slot, once you're that far behind, it's more difficult to motivate yourself and get caught back up; but in a scum-slot, lurking under suspicion, you'd be more reluctant to replace out (or so goes my theory)."

Also, some brief suspicions mentioned on Apok (whom Reya succeeded) here (from your slot as well) and here.

Probably some cases somewhere I've missed as well.

[imaginality]

Vote: Reya Cookiebringer

Sorry for absence. I'll use the night to catch up with this game and contribute fully tomorrow.

[Reya Cookiebringer]

I will vote Lord_Hur if I get the okay. I don't like to replace out because It is disrespectful to the game mod btw. If people really want me to I will.

@LH, The difference is that scum will usually flip out more, town will usually brush it off and go on the counter offensive rather than defensive.

[AurorusVox]

Why do you need "the okay"?

[lord_hur]

This sudden unanimity in willing to turn to Reya Cookiebringer makes me think that he's town, since I really can't imagine that there is no scum on my wagon.

Yes, I know I'm shooting myself in the foot, but that's what I'm thinking.

[vezokpiraka]

Gosh.

Don't vote Reya. Vote the Lord_hur scum.

If the lord flips scum then TT is going down for that post when he is defending him and trying to switch the town to reya.

[ToastyToast]

Gosh.

Don't vote Reya. Vote the Lord_hur scum.

If the lord flips scum then TT is going down for that post when he is defending him and trying to switch the town to reya.

Clear misrep. I'm not defending him at all. No one seems willing to vote lord_hur atm, we're running out of time, and reya is a ghost. There's a reason my vote is still on lord_hur, and thats because I think he's scum. I will switch to Reya if no one is willing to vote him at deadline.

[AurorusVox]

I think any gentleman who is indeed willing to run lord_hur up the gallows should make that intention clear by signing their ballot now, or indicate as much if lord_hur reaches the liminal space of a hanging.

Then, if there are not enough people by (sometime to be decided between 5th and 6th June), we can organise to do away with the rapscallion in charge of the Cookies.

[Wraith]

Votecount 2.4

lord_hur

(4)

:

Sir Hoppster

, Aurorus Vox, PhD, ToastyToast,

imaginality

, vezokpiraka,

jilynne1991

,

Sir Hoppster

, jilynne1991

Sir Hoppster

(0)

:

ToastyToast

,

lord_hur

,

vezokpiraka

vezokpiraka

(0)

:

inHimshallibe

imaginality

(2)

:

lord_hur, Feysal

Reya Cookiebringer

(3)

:

inHimshallibe, Sir Hoppster, imaginality

Not Voting

(1)

:

Reya Cookiebringer

With 10 alive it takes

6

to lynch the knave.

Night falls on

June 7, 2011