Mini 1180: Game Over

[DarthYoshi]

@WormyKrew: Your #204. VTs aren't (or shouldn't) be afraid of being NKed, so you asking me if I was afraid of being NKed was basically you asking me if I was a PR. There is literally ZERO motivation for someone who is town-aligned to ask someone that question. You're scum.

[Alduskkel]

Secret Project, I don't think you ever answered this:

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

@Alduskkel: You see Gerhard's derp vote on Jily as a scumtell and not a town tell, why?

If you're not reading the thread before making a response, you obviously don't care about getting the full information available about your case and vote. Scum, as people not truly interested in catching scum, are more likely to do this.

AtEing = not scumhunting, and vice-versa.

??? I can scumhunt and AtE at the same time. I could just build up a decent case but also appeal to emotions (possibly separately).

Actually, you know what, I do want to see what reaction this gets:

Unovte. Vote: WormyKrew.

Why would you announce that you just want to see his reaction? That completely negates the point of the vote -- if he's scum he can calculate his reaction and it won't be genuine.

(Being, creating the QT to dump my thoughts into. TRUST me. You don't want me doing it in-thread. Ask Ald. )

Oh god, Newbie 748. What wallful nightmare.

First off. VCA is kinda my thing, but it's hard to do right now working from so little. But Alex is concerning.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4)

Wiredalexv

, Alduskkel, Monk

jilynne1991 3 (L-4) TheWayItEnds,

Wiredalexv

, WormyKrew

(On someone who's to my understanding practically confirmed town, no less.)

Not Voting: jilynne1991, flinter,

Wiredalexv

(Say what you will about Not Voting counting as a wagon, but I consider it at that stage in the game to be a willing choice--which makes it to me a wagon.)

I'll be looking more into this.

(Though I need to make sure I don't tunnel on alex. It's...been known to happen. To, uh...say the least. )

So do you consider alex scummy or not for this?

Sure, Gerhard is scummy. But I know better than ANYONE else (*coughcoughpastvillageidiotcoughcough*) that there's a huge difference between scummy and scum. Gerhard is the former, not the latter. The scummy posts give off a town vibe when you double-check them. They look scummy, but look like they're coming from town.

If that makes sense.

No, it doesn't.

Scumteam Links

Well, I'm assuming RQS is Random Question Stage. I prefer RQS, because I can get more information. I dislike RVS, because it's too easy to kill a person too early. Oh, and I've only played with RVS, but I dislike it.

RVS gives discussion but also gives you an early read on the player who is bandwagonned.

VOTE: WIERDALEXV for instantly linking RVS to the concept of bandwagoning. Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

Watch how Ironhead COMPLETELY ignores jil and attacks his partner instead. On another note, he claims it doesn't put pressure on people later in the game, yet now he's saying everyone should vote evenly?

Couldn't I use the same quotes but then claim the jilynne is scum with Ironhead for the reverse reason (ignore his partner, attack someone else)? I don't see why you assume that the scum would bus at this stage, or why you're looking for scum teams when no scum have flipped.

I especially find it interesting that Mastin thinks I'm his #1 scum, yet our vote is now on the same playslot.

Why's that interesting? Do you consider it scummy on Mastin's part? Do you think there's a contradiction there?
---
Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

[Secret Project]

Secret Project, I don't think you ever answered this:

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

Not in the way it happend with him.

Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

Oooooo... Trying to deflate an issue before it comes up, eh? You scum?

[Secret Project]

Bad tags.

[wierdalexv]

Forgot to answer this.

:RVS gives discussion but also gives you an early read on the player who is bandwagonned.

VOTE: WIERDALEXVfor instantly linking RVS to the concept of bandwagoning. Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

Watch how Ironhead COMPLETELY ignores jil and attacks his partner instead.

TBH, I think Ironhead is null because of it (all though I'm still not sure if it was serious or just RVS-sarcasm, I can never tell the difference).

Now wierdalex doesn't like bussing, and is saying Ironhead is null for a reason he can't decide between, which would be a huge point in the read, I would assume.

You AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME that I don't like bussing, even though I have no site meta.

[Ironhead]

Secret Project, I don't think you ever answered this:

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

Not in the way it happend with him.

Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

Oooooo... Trying to deflate an issue before it comes up, eh? You scum?

This is a non-response to a legitimate question. I have also had trouble eliciting answers to direct questions from Secret Project.

Secret Project: Why don't you answer questions promptly?

[Secret Project]

Secret Project, I don't think you ever answered this:

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

Not in the way it happend with him.

Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

Oooooo... Trying to deflate an issue before it comes up, eh? You scum?

This is a non-response to a legitimate question. I have also had trouble eliciting answers to direct questions from Secret Project.

Secret Project: Why don't you answer questions promptly?

I answer all the legitimate questions that I see. So if you feel you have questions that I'm not answering it's because I
1. Skimmed that part of the post and didn't really catch that you wanted me to reply to something
2. thought it was stupid and didn't deserve an answer.
With your questions it's probably the latter.

Marill's answers will probably differ.

[Secret Project]

Forgot to answer this.

:RVS gives discussion but also gives you an early read on the player who is bandwagonned.

VOTE: WIERDALEXVfor instantly linking RVS to the concept of bandwagoning. Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

Watch how Ironhead COMPLETELY ignores jil and attacks his partner instead.

TBH, I think Ironhead is null because of it (all though I'm still not sure if it was serious or just RVS-sarcasm, I can never tell the difference).

Now wierdalex doesn't like bussing, and is saying Ironhead is null for a reason he can't decide between, which would be a huge point in the read, I would assume.

You AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME that I don't like bussing, even though I have no site meta.

I saw this and don't particularly think it's stupid but I didn't write it so I'll let him answer it when he comes.

[Gerhard Krause]

Replace me.

Sorry gents, I really can't keep up with two games the way I thought I could. Hopefully I'll see some of you in the future.

For my replacement's benefit, I believe that Iron Head is the most likely to be scum. His language is carefully tailored, which is fine. However, he is hiding behind it to avoid the arguments that he should be having. Secret pac man made a point that he was appealing to logic. Perhaps his wording was not strictly correct, however the context and meaning were plain. Ironhead refuses to give merit to anything that is not perfectly logically structured, which gives him a myriad of excuses to avoid nearly anything. It's like a corporation bogging you down in paper work so that a trial can't progress and you don't get your damages. Ironhead side tracked the argument so that he could yell at secret pac man for not having his Debate lingo spot on rather than actually have to answer to the presumed scum tell.

Secondly, I'm not crazy about Mastin, and my gut tells me he is scum. I do not have a logical basis for this that is within my time range to type here. It would involve language construction, his pattern of planning, and the way he outlines his suspects in advance, in case anyone wants to look into those things.

Therefore, I am off. I'll keep track of this thread until the mod actually replaces me, so

@Mod: PM me when I'm gone. I will continue to play to my win condition until then.

[Substrike22]

Searching for a replacement for Gerhard Krause. Will post a votecount after a replacement is found.

[mastin2]

Post coming in a second.

[mastin2]

I'll be honest: I've been forgetting to keep up with some things in my notes.

Mainly, that I've fallen way behind on certain things. However.

Spoiler: Practically Mutually Exclusive

Oh god, Newbie 748. What wallful nightmare.

Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

While it may be possible for me to work at it some more, if I were to currently explain it, these two goals would contradict. As in, to explain, I'd need to wall. Still working on a more brief explanation.

So do you consider alex scummy or not for this?

Mildly. This combined with certain other elements of his play make me suspicious of him, but he did a few things which I saw as potentially being town. Like a possible town-slip.

He's fourth on the scumlist, if you were paying attention. (Hence, the lack of my support on wagoning him.)

Since you people seem like you're heading for an Iron mislynch, I think I'll work on a case showing why he's town. It'll take less time to prove a single player is town than to prove multiple people are scum.

[mastin2]

First off.

I don't know why. But I've read a game (newbie, admittedly) which had Iron in it. Don't ask me for the number; I have no freakin' clue. But I recall quite clearly that Iron was reacting quite similarly here to there. And if memory serves, Iron was town.

"Meta? Worthless!"

No, not Meta. Personality. I'm sure I'd find he performed similarly as both alignments. "Null? So what makes him town?" In a minute. But I'm going to have to explain things in essentially three ways.

1: The "scummy" things in his play being part of his personality, being hard-wired into the way he THINKS, his very thought pattern. Trust me, I'm a weirdo myself, so I know this better than anyone else, that there are certain players who just take an alternate approach to scumhunting. (In Iron's case, an etremely--overly, in fact--logical approach.)

2: Explain things which aren't personality that seem scummy, and show the difference between "scummy" and "scum". (A difference I know very well.)

3: Point out the things which make Iron town.

This triple approach should deter his lynch.

[mastin2]

To all who Obviously missed it: Rereading a little.

Necessary for the Iron case. That being, he's town and shouldn't be lynched.

(Though one of the most blatant facts is this:
Who is Iron's buddy?
Iron was made scum due to interactions with jily, who is now confirmed-town. People kept calling him scum after that link was removed, however. To me, that read as stubbornly holding onto a dead read. Something I ALSO know better than anyone else. )

[Secret Project]

Scumteam Links

Well, I'm assuming RQS is Random Question Stage. I prefer RQS, because I can get more information. I dislike RVS, because it's too easy to kill a person too early. Oh, and I've only played with RVS, but I dislike it.

RVS gives discussion but also gives you an early read on the player who is bandwagonned.

VOTE: WIERDALEXV for instantly linking RVS to the concept of bandwagoning. Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

Watch how Ironhead COMPLETELY ignores jil and attacks his partner instead. On another note, he claims it doesn't put pressure on people later in the game, yet now he's saying everyone should vote evenly?

Couldn't I use the same quotes but then claim the jilynne is scum with Ironhead for the reverse reason (ignore his partner, attack someone else)? I don't see why you assume that the scum would bus at this stage, or why you're looking for scum teams when no scum have flipped.

You could do that, but in terms of distancing it's far better to vote your buddy at that stage of the game. Secondly, not looking for scumteams before scum flips is a silly thing, in that you can easily see scumteams. After a flip it's better, of course, but to say you can't

do

it D1 is silly. On D3 in a Newbie game, you might have no flips, but you're sure as hell looking for a team.

Forgot to answer this.

:RVS gives discussion but also gives you an early read on the player who is bandwagonned.

VOTE: WIERDALEXVfor instantly linking RVS to the concept of bandwagoning. Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

Watch how Ironhead COMPLETELY ignores jil and attacks his partner instead.

TBH, I think Ironhead is null because of it (all though I'm still not sure if it was serious or just RVS-sarcasm, I can never tell the difference).

Now wierdalex doesn't like bussing, and is saying Ironhead is null for a reason he can't decide between, which would be a huge point in the read, I would assume.

You AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME that I don't like bussing, even though I have no site meta.

Well, there are certain playstyles/personalities I've tended to associate with things, like your playstyle/personality makes me think you wouldn't like bussing. Even still, that was a minor point of the post.

I don't answer promptly because I'm scared if I do Pac will eat my soul.
No seriously, most of the time I either don't see it or forget to Quote it when I read it meaning I forget about it.

[mastin2]

Bad timing. Bad, bad, BAD timing.

I had a sudden wave of tiredness, right now. I'm becoming incoherent and am beginning to fall asleep. Sorry; looks like you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow. :/ (Working when I'm incoherent tends to not work well. )

[Ironhead]

Secret Project asserts that Appeals to Emotion aren't necessarily scummy -- it depends on context, says he. I agree with him -- just because an argument is fallacious does not mean the conclusion is incorrect, and just because someone uses a fallacious argument does not mean the arguer has evil motives.

For example, the Appeal to Emotion here is harmless:

Secondly, not looking for scumteams before scum flips is a silly thing, in that you can easily see scumteams. After a flip it's better, of course, but to say you can't

do

it D1 is silly.

He dismisses Alduskkel with a weak Appeal to Ridicule (which, as discussed, is an Appeal to Emotion). He doesn't really prove his argument that one can look for scum teams on Day 1; but does it matter?

Compare that to this Appeal to Ridicule:

Oh Ironhead, u so silleh. I fail to see in what reality attacking us for not scumhunting makes sense.

Here, Secret Project is defending himself against the accusation I made that his scum-hunting is ineffective and is just being done to create the appearance of good scum-hunting. Was my argument poor or faulty? Perhaps it was, or perhaps it wasn't; but Secret Project never tries to address or rebut the argument. He instead dismisses it with an Appeal to Ridicule.

I'm pretty sure I know how Secret Project would respond to this post, but I would like to hear what others think of the Appeal to Emotion. So I pose a question to the rest of the community: why did Secret Project resort to an Appeal to Emotion when he was being accused of scumminess?

[Secret Project]

To all who Obviously missed it: Rereading a little.

Necessary for the Iron case. That being, he's town and shouldn't be lynched.

(Though one of the most blatant facts is this:
Who is Iron's buddy?
Iron was made scum due to interactions with jily, who is now confirmed-town. People kept calling him scum after that link was removed, however. To me, that read as stubbornly holding onto a dead read. Something I ALSO know better than anyone else. )

Anyone except krew can be iron's buddy and I can totally see it being weirdalex. Iron's basically ignored everything except me and posts related to me.

[Substrike22]

Current Votecount: Post 268
6/5/11 10:34 am PST
D 1.5

wierdalexv 2 TheWayItEnds, Secret Project,
splitfarvie 0
Elsa von Spielburg 0
Captain Corporal 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Captain Corporal
TheWayItEnds 0
DarthYoshi 0
monk 0
Secret Project 1 Ironhead
Ironhead 2 WormyKrew, Monk
Alduskkel 0
Mastin2 0

WormyKrew 3 (L-4) splitfarvie, Darth Yoshi, Mastin2

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

Not Voting: jilynne1991, Wiredalexv

Deadline is at 12:09pm PST, on June 21st.

Captain Corporal replaces Gerhard Krause effective immediately. Make him feel welcome!

[mastin2]

Gerhard Krause 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Captain Corporal
TheWayItEnds 0
DarthYoshi 1 Alduskkel,

Oh, hey, Ald's confirmed town!
Why?

Well, 'cause, double-voters in a mini have to be town, since it's too strong of a scum ability! And he's listed as voting twice!

(*

coughcoughmodcoughcough

*)

[mastin2]

(Whoops. I was going to do something, but I forgot.)

[Substrike22]

Gerhard Krause 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Captain Corporal
TheWayItEnds 0
DarthYoshi 1 Alduskkel,

Oh, hey, Ald's confirmed town!
Why?

Well, 'cause, double-voters in a mini have to be town, since it's too strong of a scum ability! And he's listed as voting twice!

(*

coughcoughmodcoughcough

*)

mod error. sorry the biggest thing I'm having trouble with is vote counts, I'll have to figure out a new system after this game. I'll figure out where the vote's supposed to be and fix it.

[Secret Project]

I'm sorry Ironhead, but I have no idea what half of these appeals you're talking about are. At this rate everything anyone posts is an appeal of some sort.
Secondly, you're thing on my "u so silleh" post is ridiculous as IIRC I then responded to your claim of us not scumhunting AFTER that, meaning your "AtE" case is just a bit silly, don't you agree?

[Captain Corporal]

Hey, everyone! I think I have a lot of reading to do =P Firstly, are there any questions you guys want me to answer, say from the RQS, or any Gerhard didn't answer.

[Ironhead]

I'm sorry Ironhead, but I have no idea what half of these appeals you're talking about are. At this rate everything anyone posts is an appeal of some sort.

Yes, of course.

Every argument

appeals to the listener in some way. Ideally, the arguer employs an appeal to logic. If he does not, he employs one of a myriad of fallacies -- many, but not all, begin with the word "appeal." An appeal is not inherently fallacious -- as appeal to logic is not fallacious.

Secondly, you're thing on my "u so silleh" post is ridiculous as IIRC I then responded to your claim of us not scumhunting AFTER that, meaning your "AtE" case is just a bit silly, don't you agree?

The rest of your argument consisted of: "Y'know, the way we've scumhunted.

When we (my partner more often) says someone "is scum" it puts pressure on them to answer that

. If you post a few paragraphs every single post about why someone might be scum that simply doesn't work." The only part of this that can be construed as a sound defense is the bolded part. If my argument against you had simply been "calling people scum does not put pressure on them," then you would have responded (however weakly) to my entire argument in that single sentence. But my argument against your scum-hunting was:

It appears to me that Secret Project is being overly aggressive in his attempts to appear as if he is a scum-hunter. I haven't yet seen him construct a lucid argument demonstrating that someone is acting scummy; what I

have

seen him do is cast weakly supported accusations at a total of four players, followed by an exclamation that everyone in the game must be scum. This is not helpful; nor is his habit of addressing his suspects as "scum."

In short:
1. You haven't constructed a lucid argument demonstrating that someone is acting scummy;
2. You have cast weakly supported accusations at a total of four players;
3. You exclaimed everyone is scum.

I then conclude that this is not helpful.

As an addendum

, I also note that your habit of addressing your suspects as "scum" is not helpful either. If you want to perceive this as part of the accusation against you, then fine -- but it is still incumbent upon you to respond to the entire argument.

So your response weakly addressed the issue of calling people scum, but ignored the balance of the argument against you. You dismissed it with an Appeal to Ridicule.