Mini 1180: Game Over

[WormyKrew]

Bah, California.
2. Do you know who Soben is?
3. No pressure?
10. You defended Iron.
12. What logic?

[Soben]

2. splitfarvie/Scumhunter-Well, you completely slipped my mind, so either I'm having memory loss, or you're not posting enough. null.

That's us.

[jilynne1991]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jil

Ironhead is providing consistent and thought out reasoning for his play. Sk and I (still) disagree with his POV, but I think there's a better place for our vote.

Jil is playing really bad. The main thing I want to ask her is this. Why would it matter in the first place if we were in pregame or not? You could've still posted your thoughts. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Also: Jil seems like she is purposely trying not to give out too much information about herself, while absorbing everything around her.

Sorry, somehow I still thought it was pregame.

Well, I don't feel like typing it up again, so in a nutshell, I pretty much wrote the following:

I don't like RVS either (meaing that although I like spectating, I don't like participating.)

And that not liking RVS isn't necesarilly a scum tell.

The bolded above is an example of what I'm talking about. She has provided the game with essentially no information, while just sitting around and "spectating".

She also hasn't really tried to make others give out information either. The questions she has asked are unuseful and irrelevent.

tl;dr

Jil needs massive pressure

That's quick to get my lynched.

I'm sorry, I somehow missed this post until now, but my questions are certainly not unuseful. They help me understand the game, and I'm town-aligned, so, in turn, that helps town.

I don't like RVS, since I'm just a very logic-centered person by nature. I dislike the idea of

randomly

voting someone.

I may be wrong, but for me, it mattered whether or not we were in pregame, because I was amazed at the discussion going on during the pregame, and I was under the false impression that we weren't supposed to have too much discussion during pregame.

More posts to come! Sorry, if I knew how to put everything in a big, long post without saving, drafting, copying, and pasting multiple times, I would.

[Soben]

Elsa von Spielburg-you were ok while you were here, and you had no pressure on you when you left. leaning town.

There's actually a lot of pressure on her, if you were following the previous few pages you would have noticed several people have voted her.

DarthYoshi- oh my. Everyone's determined you're scum, though I don't quite see why that's so. null.

If by everyone you mean just Mastin, then yes.

Monk-You gave me a bad gut feeling. If asked to, I'll try to find the one post that really hit me in the gut. leaning scum.
Secret Project-You're contents good, and you're asking good questions. You do give me a bad gut feeling though. leaning town.
Alduskkel-You need to post more. I have a bad gut feeling. null.

So a bad gut-feeling for monk means scum, a bad gut feeling for Secret means town and a bad gut feeling for Alduskkel means null? Explain.

[jilynne1991]

Oh sorry, I didn't mean no pressure, I meant she wasn't the most pressured, and she didn't just leave us hanging.

Hmmm, ok, I don't know how I was under the false impression that alot of people determined that DY was scum. (I hope you don't mind me abbreviating you're name that way.)

Well, for monk, I marked that as leaning scum, because he gave me enough posts to work with.

Secret Project on the other hand, had very good activity and content. My gut feeling doesn't come first. My brain does.

Alduskkel on the hand gave me nothing to work with, so in that case, my gut feeling was based on nearly nothing.

[jilynne1991]

The obvscum thing was a joke...
I don't like the way jil is defending iron and copying his logic. I thought maybe jil was just a confused newb, but ear convinced me that jil is the better suspect (hence where our vote is now).

Does the fact, that maybe his logic made sense ever cross your mind? I may be a newb, but I don't think I'm *that* confused.

[Soben]

Oh sorry, I didn't mean no pressure, I meant she wasn't the most pressured, and she didn't just leave us hanging.

Her leaving has to do with real life commitments becoming overbearing I would assume, therefore her leaving is a null-tell and not a reason to read her as town or not. Her prior actions are though, so putting her leaving to the side what actions has she done that make you lean town on her?

Well, for monk, I marked that as leaning scum, because he gave me enough posts to work with.
Secret Project on the other hand, had very good activity and content. My gut feeling doesn't come first. My brain does.
Alduskkel on the hand gave me nothing to work with, so in that case, my gut feeling was based on nearly nothing.

So essentially you're saying that the fact you have a gut-scum read on someone means nothing when it comes to you actually reading them? If so then why state that you have a gut-read in the first place? Also, activity is in most cases not an allignment related tell. Someone can post a lot and still be mafia therefore suggesting activity leads towards some of your town reads is illogical.

[Alduskkel]

This is bad. I never said you suspected anyone either, I simply asked if you did and why. If you didn't, is it really too much to ask to say that you didn't and move on?

I don't particularly suspect anyone on the wagon and I said why I didn't. I don't see how my response was "bad."

The first question in 307 was "care to elaborate?" I answered it.

*bangs head on desk*

[jilynne1991]

Soben, you must understand that people also often leave a game when they feel like they can't win.

My gut read means something, when I'm on the edge of deciding someone. Otherwise, it doesn't mean very much.

It also means something, if I can't get a read on them. In monk's case, it's that I did already find him scummy.

I'll try to finish up my case on WormyKrew now.

[Soben]

Soben, you must understand that people also often leave a game when they feel like they can't win.

No, no they don't. I'm fairly sure mods blacklist players if they believe they're doing so as well. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that I want you to explain your town-read on Elsa.

[jilynne1991]

So many holes... I'll try to attempt to help the newb.
1. QT is a quicktopic. Scum use it to communicate during night, hydra heads can communicate whenever. Masons have them, neighbors have them, etc. This disturbs me that she didn't know what one was. However, she may have just not read here PM all the way through, or maybe didn't realize what it stood for?
2. Yes, if town wins, all townies win. Same with scum.
3. You only have 3 votes on you... WAY to early to give up... And if you aren't interested, then replace out, don't suicide.
4. You just said to go ahead and lynch you, now it's a waste?
5. We don't PLAN lynches. Setting up lynches beforehand is superscummy.
6. Now please reveal your "plan".

~Krew

Gosh, you seem to like twisting my words.

3) Who said I was going to give up? I just merely said, someof my other games are moree enticing.

4) I don't remember saying go ahead and lynch me. Where did that come from? It's a waste, because I won't be able to use my one-shot, which would be detrimental to the town to not make full use of it's abilities.

I don't know where you're making up stuff, but you're changing my words, and that really caught my eye. Town has no reason to twist words.

Soben, ok sorry, since I just replaced into a game, where I'm nearly 100% sure that happened. If you don't mind, I'll put out there one more piece of evidence on WormyKrew, and then I'll get started with Elsa.

If I'm asked to, I'm sure I can find more dirt on WK. (Ok, I'm abbreviating you're name, since it's getting annoying to type.)

[jilynne1991]

I've seen newbies "townslip" before. It's a clever tactic.
Also jil, DO NOT CLAIM yet. You claim when at L-1 with someone willing to hammer. Not before that. Also, please, decide. Do you want to be in this game or not? Because if you don't, then I beg of you to replace out.
~Krew

It's obvious from my join date, that I may be fairly a noob.

You seem very determined to make it seem like I was going to ditch the game? Why?

[jilynne1991]

Reread the last 5 pages or so. Honestly, I was most suspicious of our two hydras before, with Krew being suspect #1, and there has been nothing to change that suspicion while I wholeheartedly agree with SP's 467. I have several somewhat-solid town-reads that I'm making note of, but Krew has never pinged that bit of my brain even once, despite his relatively high activity. For the most part, the biggest thing that catches my eye seems like Krew flailing in his last few posts and switching to SP in an attempt to find any kind of purchase. I would like to vote, but don't know where we are in the vote count (I'll gladly put him at L-1, but I don't want to hammer out of the blue).

Ironhead seems opportunistic for his place on this wagon, but honestly there's no way to know if that's scummy or not until Krew flips. Something that stood out to me.

This logic makes sense to me. It's good content. That, in turn, makes me believe that she's town.

[jilynne1991]

(sleepy, btw)

I think I'd be okay with a Krew lynch at this point, based on the way he didn't let jily go in their exchange earlier and now has kind disappeared under pressure. I won't vote just yet, but that's something that I see a lot out of scum, at least when playing IRL (which is largely my base in playing mafia).

Also, getting town vibes from mastin since he joined and the way he's handling the current wagon. Is stating town-reads encouraged? I've always used them to much success and benefit to the town, but I kinda want to know other peoples' views on them

I agree with her logic. It makes sense, and it's decent. I don't think anyone can challenge that.

[jilynne1991]

Ok, honestly, I believe Elsa's town, because she has good content, and she was correct in what she said. She didn't try to change what anyone said, and she based her logic off of that. Therefore, in my eyes, she's town.

I admit I may have missed something, but unless someone can find a decent reason of why she's scum, I'm going to believe that she's town.

[Soben]

Wormy didn't twist you words or misrepresenting anything, if that's what your case revolves around you need to take a step back and rethink through it. You said exactly this: So if you guys want to lynch me go ahead, since this game isn't really interesting me that much.

The logic in the posts you pointed out of Elsas revolves around her stating that she is in agreement with a Wormy lynch soley due to Wormys vote on SP and that she had decent feeligns about Mastin. That's not exactly copious amounts of content and certaintly nothing to attain a town-read from.

You state you may have missed something pointing out why she's scum, here it is:

At the current moment the only scum-read that both Scumhunter and myself agree on is Elsa. The difference in he play here compared to her linked town-game is massive. In this game she has shown willingness to lurk, sheep the leading wagon and refrain from stating alternate reads. She has also shown intention to put Krew to L-1 without explaining her read of him or mentioning him at any point prior to this.

This makes me very comfortable where my vote currently is, you're voting Weirdalex for voting based on a weak case while being part of multiple weak cases already. You can attempt to deny it or cover it up as much as you want but essentially your reasoning for voting Alex is indeed an OMGUS.

[jilynne1991]

2. splitfarvie/Scumhunter-Well, you completely slipped my mind, so either I'm having memory loss, or you're not posting enough. null.

That's us.

What do you mean by that?

[Soben]

Soben "replaces" Scumhunter, effective immediately, with my permission. Soben is a Hydra account of Scumhunter and Regfan.

[jilynne1991]

Wormy didn't twist you words or misrepresenting anything, if that's what your case revolves around you need to take a step back and rethink through it. You said exactly this: So if you guys want to lynch me go ahead, since this game isn't really interesting me that much.

The logic in the posts you pointed out of Elsas revolves around her stating that she is in agreement with a Wormy lynch soley due to Wormys vote on SP and that she had decent feeligns about Mastin. That's not exactly copious amounts of content and certaintly nothing to attain a town-read from.

You state you may have missed something pointing out why she's scum, here it is:

At the current moment the only scum-read that both Scumhunter and myself agree on is Elsa. The difference in he play here compared to her linked town-game is massive. In this game she has shown willingness to lurk, sheep the leading wagon and refrain from stating alternate reads. She has also shown intention to put Krew to L-1 without explaining her read of him or mentioning him at any point prior to this.

This makes me very comfortable where my vote currently is, you're voting Weirdalex for voting based on a weak case while being part of multiple weak cases already. You can attempt to deny it or cover it up as much as you want but essentially your reasoning for voting Alex is indeed an OMGUS.

Gosh, thanks.

Ok, WK, sorry, somehow I totally forgot about the "if you want to lynch me go ahead part." Sorry, I just now realized I had a very weak case. I think I'm done with WK, and I'm going to go with that he's leaning town now.

Crap, sorry Soben, sorry I don't realize how I msised that point entirely, but I think Weirdalex also had a weak case to vote her. Crap, crap, crap! I missed alot, and I seem to be doing that alot now.

She's leaning scum to null now for me, since the town read I had on her earlier still counts for something, but the point you just introduced now puts everything into a new perspective.

[Ironhead]

Ironhead, I think you and I both know that you've been focusing and spending a great deal of your attention this game on a select few playes, can you state your overall reads on everyone in the game in your next post please.

Sure.

1. wierdalexv: Was fencesitting early in the game. Has demonstrated towniness lately with reasonable and measured probing of Secret Project and Elsa. Leaning town.

2. Soben: I'm getting a strong townie vibe from him. He (and his predecessors) has been meticulous about scumhunting and I think he is an asset to the town thus far.

3. Elsa von Spielburg: Leaning scum due to her weak scumhunting. I agree with much of the case against her and would not oppose her lynch.

4. Captain Corporal: Leaning town. Has been reasonable in his examination of and argumentation against Elsa and Secret Project.

5. jilynne1991: Strong scum vibe, I think she is overplaying the helpless 13-yr old card -- but I agree that due to her (unprovoked) role-claim, we ought to give her some time to demonstrate that she is who she claims -- at least unless or until a counter-claim.

6. TheWayItEnds: Tough to say; has one townish post to his credit (ISO #8, wherein he challenged Scumhunter), but with only nine total posts I don't think he is leaning town. The lack of posts lends itself toward scumminess in my opinion. His last post promised more activity, so I intend to refine my read of him thereafter.

7. DarthYoshi: Strong town vibe. He has seemed relaxed and forthcoming, even under pressure. Has been useful for generating discussion.

8. monk / future replacement: Leaning scum. But with so few posts, it is tough to solidify a read.

9. Secret Project: Strong scum vibe. I have pointed out his AtE issues and his attempts at scumhunting have not been useful, leading me to believe that it is all for show. His views of me and WormKrew seem to float along with the prevailing winds -- from scum to town and back again, with little explanation as to why he thinks the way he does.

11. Alduskkel: Leaning town. I have liked his detailed posting.

12. mastin2: Leaning town, due mostly due to his passionate opinions and his seeming willingness to let the chips fall where they may in this regard. On the other hand, his recent AtE and his semi-coherent string of posts last night are not townish.

13. WormyKrew: Strong scum vibe. I have detailed some of the scumminess I see in him, and expect to be able to identify more. I am struggling to find anything that is intrinsically townish in what he has said so far.

[jilynne1991]

I have a question. If I kill someone the night I get killed, then, does my kill still go through?

[Soben]

Thanks Iron, really appreciate it, I have a few disagreements with your reads but I need to talk to Scumhunter about a few things the second he gets online. There's a chance our vote may be moving sometime soon.

Jilynnn, if you were to get roleblocked, then no your kill wouldn't go through, otherwise it. Also you do realize that you've essentially just fully-claimed and drawn a massive X on your back if you are indeed town?

[mastin2]

Since it was asked of me...

Spoiler: Reads

1. wierdalexv <--Weak scum, fourth suspect. I see a lot which could make alex scum, yet I also see things (including a potential town-slip) which make him town.
2. splitfarvie Scumhunter <--Obv-town.
3. Elsa von Spielburg <--Weak town, but still town. This is a bit hard to explain, but kinda like Iron, I guess. If you want, I can make a case as to why she SHOULDN'T be lynched.
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal <--Obv-town, due to their general playstyle. It is not that of scum. It has only pure town motivation in it; I see no scum play from them.
5. jilynne1991 <--Confirmed-town. She was obv-town before her claim, confirmed town after it.
6. TheWayItEnds <---Weak-town. TWIE's post seem to have town motivation, and it's tripping a lot of my positive tells. That said, it's not to the degree of others. It's a stronger town-read than Elsa, but still not that great.
7. DarthYoshi <--Scum? Kinda Process of Elimination, one of the main suspects.
8. monk <--Town. There's no way this slot is scum, with their play so far. They have had town motivation, and have tripped all my town-tells.
9. Secret Project <--Strong town-lean. They generally give off the aura, the essence, of being pro-town. There's a slight case against them, but it feels really weak.
10. Ironhead <--Mid-town-read. The main suspicion on Iron seems to be for playstyle-related suspicions, things which should be null. (Having been a frequent victim of this in the past, I know the feeling quite well, and it's blatantly obvious to me.) Iron's play looks a lot like it has town motivation. He's slightly literally-minded, making him a bit critical, but he's not scum.
11. Alduskkel <--Scum? Process of elimination, really.
13. WormyKrew <--Scum? Again, Process of Elimination, combined with a multitude of scumtells eminating from 'em. (Will explain in case.)

Essentially.

Spoiler: Scum

Alex-Ald-Yoshi-WormyKrew are scum candidates for multiple reasons.
1: Process of Elimination. This is the strongest. I have reasons for everyone else to strongly suspect they are town. I don't see that in these four. (Well...potentially Alex, hence why he's my weakest suspicion.)
2: General Interactions. The interactions from these four strongly connect themselves to one another. I'll attempt to explain in my case, but giving interactions is not my strongsuit.
3: Scumtells. Lots of personal scumtells come into play. Essentially, individual scumminess, rather than interactive scumminess.

...Like I said. All can be explained in the Case, but it'll take a long time to write. It's no easy task for me.
/Hasn't read the thread and will catch up soon.

[TheWayItEnds]

Woo my promised post! And a pseudo explanation for my relative inactivity.
I've previously only played newbies and an open game where I knew exactly what I was looking for in the game.
Since this normal started I've been trying to figure out how to hunt a scumteam that I didn't know the makeup of, how many partners I was looking for interactions with and the like.... That got me..... Nowhere.
At all.
So, now I've decided that I will be hunting exclusively for the scummiest player and attempting to further their lynch and not worry about the entire scumteam, which should lead to me being more active.
With that out of the way.

I do need to hear from TheWayItEnds and Ironhead more before I can attain a read on any of them so: Ironhead and TheWayItEnds I want you all to state your thoughts on the WormyKrew wagon at the moment as well as if you feel it's scum or town propelled.

I think the WK wagon built up really fast which makes me slightly suspicious of it. It's probably town propelled for the most part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were 1-2 scum on the wagon at some point.
The other problem I'm having is that I'm pretty sure that mastin started pushing the WK wagon before WK posted his 'i like you "

slip

"', meaning that I'm still missing out on the reason the wagon was actually started (which, if it exists, I would still be interested in).
I also don't like the slip, as I feel that liking a replacement for their posting, or their reads, or their X... means that you have to agree with everything that person has ever said.
I just got out of a game where one of my best townreads thought I was scum and we argued for much of the day... but I still liked (most of) his posting style and the way he generated activity.


This jily situation is interesting, I don't think that link proves shes an alt, but her flipping scum in a game leaves her "what's a qt?" as a point of suspicion rather than a "townslip" as it was called.
I'm still inclined to believe that (for the moment) she's prob town, because of the nature of her claim. Because she claimed a limited use PR, if there were other players in the game that all had full use PRs they would all look at her claim with suspicion... But if they had limited use PR's they would be more inclined to believe that.
Wait...Well would you look at that... shes now (almost) full claimed vig.... Which is a limited use PR that wouldn't really affect the ability of full use PR's in the game... Pretty much just discard this whole section...
Shes now either a vig, or an SK (are SK's allowed in normals?)
Either way.... I don't see the first claim in the game coming for scum without a townclaim to model it on.

[Soben]

Mastin, process of elimination is actually Scumhunter and my favourite means of scumhunting. It's much easier to attain strong town-reads than strong scum-reads however the issue with it if you don't explain your town-reads people can't follow your thought process correctly. I generally don't bother with attempting to call the scum team via interactions with day one, noting obvious connections that don't worry however is worthwhile.

I'm interested in hearing your detailed scumtells on your reads though I would tell you there's no rush in belting it out, we have plenty of time until the deadline. I do still fail to understand your jillyn town-read though, considering the game I was mentioning earlier is actually over I can link you to her saying What's a QT? in Open 307.

She was scum in that game.

TheWayItEnds, generally Mini-Normals involve one of the following:

• 3 Scum. No Serial killer. Weak town power roles.
• 2 Scum. Serial killer. Average town power roles.
• 3 Scum. Serial killer. Strong town power roles.