Mini 1180: Game Over

[Substrike22]

Current Votecount: Post 600
6/11/11 4:01 pm PST
D 1.8

wierdalexv 2 TheWayItEnds, Elsa Von Spielburg
Soben 0
Elsa von Spielburg 3 Soben, Wiredalexv, Captain Corporal,
Gerhard Krause 2 Alduskkel,
jilynne1991 0
TheWayItEnds 0
DarthYoshi 0
Brokenscraps 0
Secret Project 0
Ironhead 2 Brokenscraps, WormyKrew,
Alduskkel 0
Mastin2 0

WormyKrew 4 (L-3) Darth Yoshi, Mastin2, jilynne1991, Ironhead,

V/LA's:
Elsa, June 12-19th
Yoshi, Weekend


With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

Not Voting: Secret Project,

Deadline is at 12:09pm PST, on June 25th.

[mastin2]

Having gotten to Page 24, I must say, I'm kinda ashamed:

Jily's did better scumhunting than pretty much anyone else.

Defending Elsa as town, and pushing WormyKrew as scum, mainly.

Spoiler: Poor Girl

She got pressured out of it and backed down when big meanie vets pushed her down. It's kinda sad. She's a newbie, who thought she was doing good. (And was!) But the vibe I get from her is that she feels like the scumhunting she just did was being scolded by the more experienced players, like it was worthless and that she was wrong, making her feel worse and backing down.

(That's something which regrettably happens more often than not with newbies. They try to scumhunt in their own way, and have a vet essentially go, "lolno." It then discourages them, since they feel kinda put down--perhaps rejected--and they frequently become submissive. Which is generally a bad thing. Submissive newbies become too easy for scum to manipulate. Submissive Newbies ALSO get ideas planted into their head which they never should have. Things like auto-no-lynching with no discussion at all in Mylo, which theoretically is the right move but in practice is the WORST possible play to do in those situations.)

Just the feeling I got.

[Soben]

Mastin, save the whiteknighting for the discussion section of the site. She stated she likes to play soley on logic therefore she's going to need to use it, explain it and then defend her reads with it, the same goes for you.

[mastin2]

Theoretically.

Spoiler: But I know the mind of a newbie.

I've seen it happen many times before.

Newbie gives good, legitimate scumhunting. The reasons might be faulty, but the suspects are not. They're on the right track!

A veteran player comes in. "Lolno." Explains why they're wrong.

Newbie backs down. "...okay.

I think I'll just go and follow these guys... =(

" Newbie then proceeds to doubt themselves, not pursue their original suspects, and leaves themself more open to suggestion.

If you haven't seen this, you don't play enough Newbie Games. Or maybe you don't see it because you're the vet in said situation. (And don't realize you've effectively bullied someone who was trying to help and rejected their assistance, in a way.)

But I? I see it all the time. Newbie's "Logic" is shot down as terribad, newbie gets discouraged, newbie becomes submissive and backs down from their valid reads. Newbie becomes more open to suggestion, looking for guidance since apparently they're clueless and quite wrong, according to these more experienced players who should know what they're talking about.

You do realize I'm a guy who is considering writing an MD article called, "Newbies Are Geniuses", right?

I know the mind of a newbie, and can read between the lines. You see her having simply changed her reads after they were shown to be inaccurate. I see someone who--while they'll rarely admit it--just got quite depressed.

I see these things. The tone in people's posts. It's just what I do.

She just got discouraged. After putting in the time and effort to give a good strong attempt at scumhunting, she got shot down by a more experienced player. That's demoralizing to a newbie.

[Soben]

I'm not a vet, I've been at the site for less than three months I believe and this form of mafia is very different from the mafia I previously played. I previously played at epic mafia with players that didn't use logic whatsoever. So being a relatively new player in this format I do understand the mind of a newbie generally well, especially because I've coached multiple other players on alternate sites and even one on this site.

New players can only improve if they learn the mistakes they are mistaking and see the flaws in their arguments, this can only be done if someone points out the logical flaws and ask them to reasses or explain their reads. The honest fact is that generally if you're unable to explain your read it's wrong or you shouldn't be having it. To top that of, doing so allows you to get a better feel for the newbies role as they become forced to share their feelings in greater depth therefore completing your win objective.

[mastin2]

I'm not going to discuss this in-thread due to the clutter any further after this. But needless to say, you just proved my point. (I'm not going to quote you to prove how [that'd elongate the clutter], but you did.)

Spoiler: My View

Essentially, Newbies need gentle guidance. Not forceful guidance. "Lolno" (which is the tone I got on page 24) is forceful. Gently explaining things is better. Showing the newbie what they're doing wrong, in a "this is wrong" tone is terrible. It's absolutely horrible to them, one of the worst things they can feel, producing a sinking feeling in their chest as they're told their effort was for nothing. Explaining what they can do better is calmly guiding them in the right direction, gently trying to show them the way, rather than forcing it on them. If you gently prod them, their confidence level grows, as does their playing ability. If you forcefully push them down, then their confidence is shattered and it can take multiple games before they're even close to as confident as they were.

Tone is something I quite frankly know better than most people. I know many people's tones in their posts better than THEY do. (For instance, I know for a fact that the tone in MY post is a "What the Heck, Hero?!?" tone. ) And I saw Jily, a confident newbie, give her reads. I saw them not gently pushed, but forcefully shoved. I then saw her be submissive because of that, unconfident, doubtful of herself due to this approach.

It quite frankly disgusts me. Worse, because the vets can't read Tone, most of them don't even REALIZE they're doing it. But it happens. All the time. And it's destructive. It wrecks a player for games. Damages them in a way which takes a long time to be repaired.

[mastin2]

Also, I've been forgetting to take notes, sorry. Mainly due to this distraction.

[Soben]

The newbie queue is for players that don't know how to play to join to be gently tutored and helped by the games IC, if you join a game outside of that you're stating the intention to play on a level playing field with everyone else, this is privy to having to explain your reads. When you join a game you agree to do what's needed to stay by your win condition, mine was for town to win therefore if I believe the player getting lynched is town (Krew) then I need to point out illogical arguments to move the vote off him which involves showing players the flaws and gaps in their arguments.

Regardless this is all pointless discussion becuase as I've said multiple times and have just found proof, she is not a new player at all. Indisputable proof is in her Scum QT where she says "I'm going to keep going with the "I'm so confused, I'm innocent, I don't know what the hell is going on thing." It keeps me under the radar, but I need you to stay alive without seeming too defensive."

[mastin2]

...Hmm, which emoticon here is for disgust?
None of them quite seem to convey the level which I feel from your view. You have no Mercy. (I obviously do. )

Jily is a new player. From what I can tell, all her experience comes from on-site. Meaning that--while she is far from as naive as she pretends to be--she still IS a newbie. She's in multiple games, so picks things up faster than a normal newbie, but she still is one. I quote from the same Mafia QT you did.

Also, I'm genuinely that newbish, but I'm not genuinely that lost or confused.

She IS a newbie.

[Soben]

Your naivety is hillarious. I can't go into it too much but go through her first few posts on the site which were 10 days ago? Then tell me if you honestly believe she's new.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Bit Off-Topic Ramble

(If you couldn't tell, Teaching is one of the only things I pride myself on.
I know that my MD work is controversial, and while I thoroughly enjoy making it and do believe everything I say there and it's good enough to have gotten me nom'd for Professor Mafia...
...It's still debatable.
I know my scum play sucks, since I've never won a game as scum without my buddies.
I know I'm not a great scumhunter. I'm mediocre, going on good. I'm improving with every game.

...But teaching?
Teaching is the one thing which I have not been criticized for. Teaching is the one thing which I do well, the one thing which people widely acknowledge as being a strongsuit of mine.)

[jilynne1991]

Ok, can I just say something. I AM NOT DEPRESSED.

Also, I don't need to be gently tutored, but mastin2, thanks for being my shrink. You're mostly right about me.

Soben, why are you so desparate to say I'm new?

[Soben]

Jilynne, it's not desperation on our part as much as it is curiosity. You don't strike us as a new player and our intuition says you are not telling the truth. Does that make you mafia even if you are lying? Not sure. We are willing to drop this subject as long as our concern is noted, which it has been.

Regfan and I have been pretty active in our QT lately and we've come to a couple of conclusions. As much as we still believe Elsa is scum, we feel her V/LA will hinder our ability to get a firm reaction from her to solidify our read. We don't want to lynch her without a claim and I don't really want to wait a week for her to come back either. We just want to reaffirm our suspicion that we believe Elsa and weirdalex's alignments are likely an inverse relationship with the inclination right now that Elsa is scum. If Elsa is town, we expect at least one scum would jump on the wagon and we currently have a town read on Captain.

So, that moves us on to our next suspect: TheWayItEnds

We are pretty confident on our scum read on him, we did some re-reading and his mention of being unable to understand a normal is just an attempted excuse to cover up his active lurking. His previous town games:

1. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

2. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

We believe TheWayItEnds play this game is quite different from the proactive town play he has displayed in these games and at this point we think it justifies a vote.

unvote, vote TheWayItEnds

Reads we are relatively confident in:

Town: Captain, Yoshi, Monk, Secret, Wormy, Mastin
Null: Ironhead, Aldusskel, Alex (decently dependent on Elsa flip), Jilynne
Scum: Elsa, TheWayItEnds

@Wormy, I'm more of a Pujols fan than a Cardinals fan. He has led me to some pwnage in a keeper fantasy baseball league over the years. Oh and to explain our change in read of you, my partner has a very strong town read on you. I'm not seeing it...perhaps he can explain better than I.

[Soben]

Also, anyone who agrees with our vote on TheWayItEnds, please feel free to join us. The only way valuable discussion takes place is when pressure is applied and votes start to pile up.

[Soben]

For some unknown reason those links don't work, so here they are again:

1. Newbie 1100

2. Newbie 1066

[brokenscraps]

I've unfortunately developed a mind-fogging cold in the day since I offered to replace. it shouldn't be too much of a problem, should only take a day or two to clear up, but it means I won't be very intelligent/active for at least a couple of days now. Reading through from the beginning now, should have some solid contributions in a few days. Apologies.

[TheWayItEnds]

If you looked hard enough to find my old games you should have noticed that I made a very similar post in my other ongoing... but that seems to be irrelevant.

I'm very vocal once I have reads. In this game I'm stuggling to find one for partially the reasons I mentioned earlier, which is also the reason that I've been hoping that mastin would explain his reads so I could figure out what the fuck I was missing.

Oh and me "acting the proactive town in newbie 1100" made me laugh.

[Soben]

Why are you just trying to find "one" read? How about explaining reads, plural, on all the other players in the game. You know, the way town-sided players do to try and figure out who they can trust and eliminate suspects.

It is page 25. It's time to step your game up and contribute something if you are town. If you are mafia feel free to continue to do next-to-nothing and get yourself lynched.

Prove my fos wrong if you are town, a legitimate defense would not be "irrelevant" to us. Basically what I want to know is "Why are you not being an active townie THIS game?" I don't care about previous games necessarily. They only serve to prove you are capable of better play as town. The fact you aren't helping out and you are able to is scummy. I'm willing to listen but you need to provide something worthwhile here.

[WormyKrew]

I apologize in advance for the wall of posts I'm about to make.

[WormyKrew]

Bah, California.
2. Do you know who Soben is?
3. No pressure?
10. You defended Iron.
12. What logic?

Answer them all please jily.

[WormyKrew]

Anyone notice jily was going through Elsa's posts saying how town Elsa was? But then she doesn't mention the post where Elsa decides I'm town...

[WormyKrew]

Iron is still ignoring my post.

[WormyKrew]

jily, address Soben's points on you please.

[WormyKrew]

mastin, both of my heads are newbs. Why are you not teaching me?

[WormyKrew]

I have some questions to ask Elsa when she gets back.
Okay, that's it.
Superseriousscumhuntingquestionforscumhunter: Where will Pujols be after his contract expires? Still in STL?