Mini 1180: Game Over

[TheWayItEnds]

This is where I believe you're wrong, although scum want to push mslynches they also don't want to take responsibility for them, especially not this early in the game. Scum are more likely to be lurking around and allowing the lynch to proceed without doing too much of the dirty work themselves. Read the comments that I'll post below and you'll notice both of them have at some point pushed some suspicion towards him while also stating they don't fully agree with his lynch. If they believed this was the case and that he was town they would be doing something to attempt to prevent this lynch going through like I am, however again they both stood back and watched it take place.

I think the WK wagon built up really fast which makes me slightly suspicious of it. It's probably town propelled for the most part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were 1-2 scum on the wagon at some point. The other problem I'm having is that I'm pretty sure that mastin started pushing the WK wagon before WK posted his 'i like you "

slip

"', meaning that I'm still missing out on the reason the wagon was actually started (which, if it exists, I would still be interested in). I also don't like the slip, as I feel that liking a replacement for their posting, or their reads, or their X... means that you have to agree with everything that person has ever said.

First.
Point out where I support this wagon.
Second.
Soben please note that in this post I am implying that mastin may have ulterior motives for pushing the WK case or stopping the iron case that have not been revealed.
Third.
Soben please note that in the above sentence I am implying that if no other reason exists that the case may be scum motivated, and that, by extension, mastin may be scum.

[Soben]

TWIE, I'm not interested in you just saying bullshit meta is bullshit. It absolutely reeks of scum being mad that they were caught for a bad reason. Every post you make just strengthens our suspicions on you/ You shouldn't be wasting your breath defending yourself, rather you should be spending your time actually trying to scumhunt other players. You are acting like you are flailing and at L-1 or something. I mean it baffles us that you only have 1 vote on you, but that is the state of things so I don't see why you need to post these defenses of yourself. Is anyone else reading into TWIE at all?

Or are we the only ones who are like wtf why no lynch on him yet?

""Soben, are you really attempting to get more votes on me because you've seen me play a good town game and want me gone before I can do so again? What would be the town motivation behind that?"
Shit. That still doesn't explicitly state how I think there might be a scum motivation... it's implied... but that didn't go over too well last time.
Ah well. Maybe you'll get it."

If your suspicion of us really is this strong how come you haven't attempted to place a vote on us or state reasons why you find us suspicious? Basically, why are you voting Alex and not us. Your whole defense seems to boil down to that you play bad as town in general??? You have given next to no reads this entire game and your response to us bringing this up is that our meta case is off on you instead of responding by producing more reads/interactions with other players. Jesus, that is scummy.

[Soben]

Hadn't seen your last post before posting that. But basically yes, those are the kind of insights we want to see from you. Analysis of wagons, thoughts on players, etc...

[Skyquiem]

First. Point out where I support this wagon.

Second. Soben please note that in this post I am implying that mastin may have ulterior motives for pushing the WK case or stopping the iron case that have not been revealed.

Third. Soben please note that in the above sentence I am implying that if no other reason exists that the case may be scum motivated, and that, by extension, mastin may be scum.

First: You either believe he's town, or you believe he's scum, if you were unsure about him completly you would be attempting to ask Wormy questions to work out which he is. If you believe he's scum, why are you not on the wagon? If you believe he's town then wouldn't he be one of your town-reads and therefore you would be defending him?

Second: Yes, that was noted.

Third: You're still fencesitting on your decision here, you don't state if you believe Mastin is scum or not, you merely state it's a possibility, guess how much that helps? None at all.

[Soben]

The below is my post, sorry was logged on in the wrong account:

First. Point out where I support this wagon.

Second. Soben please note that in this post I am implying that mastin may have ulterior motives for pushing the WK case or stopping the iron case that have not been revealed.

Third. Soben please note that in the above sentence I am implying that if no other reason exists that the case may be scum motivated, and that, by extension, mastin may be scum.

First: You either believe he's town, or you believe he's scum, if you were unsure about him completly you would be attempting to ask Wormy questions to work out which he is. If you believe he's scum, why are you not on the wagon? If you believe he's town then wouldn't he be one of your town-reads and therefore you would be defending him?

Second: Yes, that was noted.

Third: You're still fencesitting on your decision here, you don't state if you believe Mastin is scum or not, you merely state it's a possibility, guess how much that helps? None at all.

[jilynne1991]

Ok, you guys, if it's not too much trouble please bold your vig votes.

At first, weirdalexv looked leaning town, because he had good content and he made sense. Now, I need to rethink.

Elsa von Spielburg (3) WormyKrew, Captain Corporal, Soben

weirdalexv (3) Secret Project, mastin2, DarthYoshi

[brokenscraps]

weirdalexv is pretty obviously a semi-lurking scum, but whatever the case the slot is fairly dead to me. Trying to have it every which and poor weak-read justifications. He is dead to me because of my trust issues. I ain't ever gonna trust him as town, our relationship is over, sorry, I can't allow you to stay around. I support a weirdalex vig.

vig-vote: weirdalexc

[brokenscraps]

Elsa is also currently a dead slot due to the painful lurking and deficiency in town play but has more of an option to recover. Play better (in this case this largely means more) and I won't assume you're horrible lurker scum.

[TheWayItEnds]

TWIE, I'm not interested in you just saying bullshit meta is bullshit. It absolutely reeks of scum being mad that they were caught for a bad reason. Every post you make just strengthens our suspicions on you/ You shouldn't be wasting your breath defending yourself, rather you should be spending your time actually trying to scumhunt other players. You are acting like you are flailing and at L-1 or something. I mean it baffles us that you only have 1 vote on you, but that is the state of things so I don't see why you need to post these defenses of yourself. Is anyone else reading into TWIE at all?

Or are we the only ones who are like wtf why no lynch on him yet?

""Soben, are you really attempting to get more votes on me because you've seen me play a good town game and want me gone before I can do so again? What would be the town motivation behind that?"
Shit. That still doesn't explicitly state how I think there might be a scum motivation... it's implied... but that didn't go over too well last time.
Ah well. Maybe you'll get it."

If your suspicion of us really is this strong how come you haven't attempted to place a vote on us or state reasons why you find us suspicious? Basically, why are you voting Alex and not us. Your whole defense seems to boil down to that you play bad as town in general??? You have given next to no reads this entire game and your response to us bringing this up is that our meta case is off on you instead of responding by producing more reads/interactions with other players. Jesus, that is scummy.

If you're going to use bullshit meta me and then call for votes because of it, then I'm going to explain exactly why your bullshit meta is bullshit meta.
As for why my vote is currently not on you.... thats easy.

You drop a post full of meta and a vote.
I point out why its terrible, drop a vote on you.
You cry OMGUS, attempting to defeat an argument with a word.
That doesn't work for me.
Instead I build a case over several posts before voting, so that if you try to cry OMGUS... you just look ridiculous.
That's why my vote appears stagnant at times. (Oh stagnant votes don't make me look town? Don't care.)

The below is my post, sorry was logged on in the wrong account:

First. Point out where I support this wagon.

Second. Soben please note that in this post I am implying that mastin may have ulterior motives for pushing the WK case or stopping the iron case that have not been revealed.

Third. Soben please note that in the above sentence I am implying that if no other reason exists that the case may be scum motivated, and that, by extension, mastin may be scum.

First: You either believe he's town, or you believe he's scum, if you were unsure about him completly you would be attempting to ask Wormy questions to work out which he is. If you believe he's scum, why are you not on the wagon? If you believe he's town then wouldn't he be one of your town-reads and therefore you would be defending him?

Second: Yes, that was noted.

Third: You're still fencesitting on your decision here, you don't state if you believe Mastin is scum or not, you merely state it's a possibility, guess how much that helps? None at all.

mastin has been promising a wall... I don't know if you saw that or not.
If the reasoning behind his initial push from Iron to WK is in there and satisfactory, I'll be less inclined to believe that he is.
If his reasoning is weak or missing, then i will have to believe that he may have had scum motivation in doing so.

Its.
A.
Possibility.

I pointed it out because I thought it was suspicious.
Now that I've explained it at detail, I'm sure mastin will come up with something that meets those requirements.

Thank you for that Soben.

[brokenscraps]

Hmm... TWIE is also a scummy seeming lurker. Many of soben's tells seem weak but TWIE has the worst content of any of the lurkers and has been talking scummy garbiage ever since his horrible initial cases.

+If TWIE is scum it would certainly damage my faith in Elsa.

Why is TWIE getting away with horrible vote sitting? Have you seen his reason for the vote? HORRIBLE.

Anyway, Captain Corporal is town and should stop voting Elsa and start joining a legitimate cause, like TWIE. Any other town players can join too.

UNVOTE: WormyKrew
VOTE: TWIE

Lynch scummy lurkers and we've won half the battle, the scummy non-lurkers in this game are honestly not gonna be good enough to get away with it for more than a day or two and can be swept up at the end. Clearing out the riff raff comes first.

[TheWayItEnds]

That's why my vote appears stagnant at times. (Oh stagnant votes don't make me look town? Don't care.)

Why is TWIE getting away with horrible vote sitting? Have you seen his reason for the vote? HORRIBLE.

Amazing content you got there yourself.

[brokenscraps]

I DON'T CARE.

[TheWayItEnds]

Many of soben's tells seem weak but

TWIE has the worst content of any of the lurkers

and has been talking scummy garbiage ever since his horrible initial cases.

Amazing content you got there yourself.

I DON'T CARE.

Amazing. Simply Amazing.

[TheWayItEnds]

Oh hey Soben, with the above post I am implying that if brokenscraps wants to make a case about my content he should provide meaningful content himself to avoid looking dumb.

[brokenscraps]

Case on Wierdalex is clearly garbage. I don't need to explain why. It is a bad reason. You done bad.

What is with the theory/abstracts debates? I hate these stupid disputes over nothing that have plagued this town. It doesn't matter what you think it the best play or how town should act or what is the best all time great tell than everyone should bow to and we should lynch anyone who disagrees with the wording (this isn't anyone in particular these problems are endemic) the one thing that is damn obvious is that having posts filled with nothing but disputes over what is the best play is down there with the worst all plays. And when it is sustained with a clear absence of any other contribution you have prime lynch material, the top shelf stuff, let's get on with the scum killing.

And *DING DING DING* TWIE fits! It is a choice match!

But for someone who is so concerned with telling us the right way to play you sure seem down on yourself. Yes you are missing everything. You are not playing to overcome this. You are exploiting your absence of reads, the base state of fake scumhunters.

You are a weasel more concerned with create escape opportunity discord than clarifying the actual non-abstracts of this game. Preferably makes posts that aren't scummy or aren't reasons why we should ignore your scumminess.

As for why my vote is currently not on you.... thats easy.

You drop a post full of meta and a vote.
I point out why its terrible, drop a vote on you.
You cry OMGUS, attempting to defeat an argument with a word.
That doesn't work for me.
Instead I build a case over several posts before voting, so that if you try to cry OMGUS... you just look ridiculous.
That's why my vote appears stagnant at times. (Oh stagnant votes don't make me look town? Don't care.)

AND THIS IS YOUR EXCUSE FOR BEING A WEASEL?

Understand this: you are practically dead to me and should be dead to the rest of the town. You are solidifying your role as weasel. If you somehow are town you should know: you're not helping. You are hurting the town. You are not making a case on Soben if that is what you have deluded yourself into thinking. You are making weasel plans, and your effort to make someone look bad can only come from the twisted mind of an anti-town player. Which is why you're not town. Which is why we should be voting you.

Dismiss an argument with a word? Soben's play has not been how you wish to categorize it. Why are you so paranoid? You know you're scum. You're worried about how your vote-sitting looks and you are worried about how voting Soben without a case will look.

Solution: dismiss the vote sitting for no real reason; justify your future vote for Soben by claiming that you defending yourself is somehow making a cogent and effective case for Soben being the most scummy; tie it all together into one dodgy section.

Avant-garde weasel genius.

confirm vote

[Soben]

If you're going to use bullshit meta me and then call for votes because of it, then I'm going to explain exactly why your bullshit meta is bullshit meta.

Firstly, the usage of meta wasn't bullshit and I believe I've proven this. Secondly meta wasn't the entire reason for our vote on you it consisted of the fact that you were lurking in a manner that showed no attempt at scumhunting or stating of reads whatsoever something that mafia gain something from doing whereas town don't. You seem content to continue to ignore this aspect of the case against you and instead scream 'Meta bullshit!' over and over again.

As for why my vote is currently not on you.... thats easy. You drop a post full of meta and a vote. I point out why its terrible, drop a vote on you.

You cry OMGUS, attempting to defeat an argument with a word.

That doesn't work for me. Instead I build a case over several posts before voting, so that if you try to cry OMGUS... you just look ridiculous. That's why my vote appears stagnant at times. (

Oh stagnant votes don't make me look town? Don't care.

)

You just stated two contradicting thought processes, you state that you don't care how people percieve your play or if it doesn't seem town while also saying that the sole reason for witholding from voting me is because then I would call OMGUS and you would look bad.

mastin has been promising a wall... I don't know if you saw that or not. If the reasoning behind his initial push from Iron to WK is in there and satisfactory, I'll be less inclined to believe that he is. If his reasoning is weak or missing, then i will have to believe that he may have had scum motivation in doing so. Its. A. Possibility.

It's also a possibility that the worlds going to end tommorow but I don't sit around doing nothing because I'm unsure if it's the case or not. You have to reach conclusions in this game and then attempt to back them up, reasses them or continue with them, this is again something you haven't done once.

Amazing content you got there yourself.

Are you honestly attempting to attack someone else for a lack of content when I just summarized the entirety of your content throughout the game this far which was almost nothing.

[Soben]

I just got out of a game where one of my best townreads

thought I was scum and we argued for much of the day... but I still liked (most of) his posting style and the way he generated activity.

Alright. Because I don't like the PoE find scum method because

I dislike the idea of town tells.

All scum is attempting to do is put out towntells by "acting town". I don't care who town is. I'm attempting to find scum.

I replaced in, I defended some one I called town.

She was, a TOWNREAD *gasp* Why? Not because she put out "towntells"

Because she was Blatantly. Obviously. Town.

I asked Scumhunter to point this out earlier, unsure why he didn't but you've blatantly contradicted yourself here as well. Town-reads can only be attained from believing the player town-told, there's literally no other way to get them. Sure there might be no such thing as X and Y are town-tells therefore anyone that does them is town however there are such things as doing X in this position reads as geninue and is therefore how I have a town-read on a person.

[Ironhead]

Ironhead’s #594: How has Alex’s interactions with SP and Elsa demonstrated towniness? (As an aside, I’m fairly convinced that the Alex-Elsa interactions cannot be a bus; I’m thinking that if one flips scum, the other is probtown.) Also, please elaborate your town read on Alduskkel.

Hmmm. When I first re-read wierdalexv in ISO, I thought it was townish of him to keep pushing SP to answer questions, account for his behavior, etc. Also thought he had shrewdly identified a scumslip from Elsa. But I re-read it now, and I'm having doubts -- seeing it in ISO vis-a-vis seeing it alongside other players' posts shows a more scummy tint to it.

I am still confident in my read of Alduskkel -- I thinks his ISO #4, 5, 7, and 13 are townish.

Ironhead: What do you think of the Soben/Mastin interactions on p25?

While I sympathize with mastin2's concern -- that rookie players can sometimes be crowded out by more experienced players, and it is a shame when a rookie brings good ideas to the game only to see it quashed by the mockery of a close-minded veteran -- I side with Soben here. This is not a Newbie game and I think jil is better at this than she is letting on. Maybe I'm wrong and jil really is a helpless rookie trying to rise above a sea of hairy-chested men, but I am getting the impression that she is trying to manipulate us, and mastin2's sympathy is the sort of response she is trying to elicit.

...

The exchange between brokenscraps and TWIE is tiresome to watch. Soben keeps a pretty level head when arguing with TWIE; brokenscraps dove for the gutter and stayed there ("Avant-garde weasel genius."

Huh?

). I don't think TWIE has responded well to Soben, but he has comported himself far better than brokenscraps -- #689 is a masterpiece of awful argumentation. I am keeping my vote on WK until he demonstrates a reason for me to change it (he did promise a response to me in #652); in the meantime, I think it would behoove us to put a lot of pressure on brokenscraps.

[Captain Corporal]

I'm still happy with my Elsa vote, but I'll re-read.

[brokenscraps]

If mastin didn't seem so what-I-understand-to-be-how-he-might-act-as-town (based at leat 1 part out of 5 on assumption rather than actually checking, if someone wants to correct me please do, I'm sure you have the time/health) I'd think he was veering moderately close to some choice plays from various scum-books. Plus his self-claimed nice theories/bad practice (theories aren't even real gosh darn) is really a skewed view when you have him preferring the mystic trust-me-on-this approach combined with things-are-not-what-they-seem/the-accused-are-innocent approach + the whole newbie intuition worship.

All just words to clothe a man who never was an philosopher but was in fact a seer. Mafia theory is to mastin what quantum physics is to new age spiritualists.

And the whole teacher-is-an-allignment-neutral-role shtick is dead wrong.

A messy character, but leans town atm because I'm not seeing scum motivation behind his plays, even his messy ones (and he seems pretty on the ball compared to a lot of these jokers). Like attracts like? Because he definitely supports the prime mess of jilynne for sharing the newbie moon logic.

Moon logic because the connection between "I'm town" to "I'll be faking these aspects of myself" seem bent. I'm taking jilynne as town for now at least mostly almost totally because of the claim, but also because of the targeting she had received for some non-scummy things; doesn't cause absolutes but it helps lowers those probabilities from where I'm standing. But there is a messy mental structure that leads to the self-admitted semi-deceptions and personality falsifications engaged in by jilynne being used for pro-town purposes. "I'm genuinely that newbish, but I'm not genuinely that lost or confused" = the question asking routine is a ruse? For what end? NK-proofing? Lost sheep meta? Has used the thread largely as a conversation board which makes actual motivation searches come up empty.

Of course some players have put great emphasis on their clean tells and logic. They are not magic spells. Turning disputes over scumminess into disputes over which magic spell is best and then applying the winner to your chosen victim is a certified scum method of scum hunting. You get to skip the whole situation of looking for real scum since you're only trying to 1. look like you're hunting and 2. get townies dead.

Ironhead is pure magician at first though he has been improving. I was put off by his jousting partner Secret Project starting right off from the beginning as well. Which leads me to wonder how some of you folks got strong town reads on them early on, most namely WormyKrew, who despite their vote on and apparent suspicion towards Ironhead manage to find town-positive actions in the largest pointless disputes and commentary that characterize his early play. Their expression, application and holding of early views on jilynne strike me as forced and scum style grasping. That's part of why I was okay with supporting a WK wagon, plus general scum vibes. But like I said I think the scummy lurkers are gonna be more of a problem. Let the scummy-non-lurkers build up some more interactions/reactions to days/flips and they will illuminate their alignments.

[brokenscraps]

The exchange between brokenscraps and TWIE is tiresome to watch. Soben keeps a pretty level head when arguing with TWIE; brokenscraps dove for the gutter and stayed there ("Avant-garde weasel genius."

Huh?

). I don't think TWIE has responded well to Soben, but he has comported himself far better than brokenscraps -- #689 is a masterpiece of awful argumentation. I am keeping my vote on WK until he demonstrates a reason for me to change it (he did promise a response to me in #652); in the meantime, I think it would behoove us to put a lot of pressure on brokenscraps.

Right now I'm thinking you're town so I'm gonna answer this. If you think you have seen legitimate reasons for finding me scummy then by all means point them out, putting pressure on them will only make the game clearer (via eliminating town players from suspect lists and having a town ally). But I don't want to see a town slot (which I suspect you are) wasted on pursuing empty problems of your own devising and I've already seen you have a tendency to leap from little wordings to wrong conclusions (or at least conclusions for wrong reasons).

So anyway: planning to put pressure on someone when you can't actually find something to pressure is a surefire way to turn little mistakes into big ones. This game has had enough distractions; surely we can avoid new ones.

Point: pressure when you find something to pressure, not because it is behooving for some apparent reason which you don't seem to know.

[Secret Project]

We're not lynching TWIE today, lol, stop it.

[Secret Project]

I hate when town doesn't realize they're wasting votes by putting them on wagons that aren't gonna happen.

[Captain Corporal]

Secret, stop saying who we can and can't lynch.

Time to start being open-minded >_>

[brokenscraps]

jil should not be voting WK due to "Sorry, I just now realized I had a very weak case. I think I'm done with WK, and I'm going to go with that he's leaning town now."

Alduskkel is basically vote sitting on Captain Corporal at this stage as his initial reasons for voting are weak at this stage so if he is continuing to find that slot the scummiest/worthiest lynch he should update the reasons. Otherwise there is another vote that can move around.

Elsa almost certainly will favor the wierdalexv-vig-wagon instead of the Elsa-vig-wagon meaning there should be another free vote to play with (she is currently voting wierdalexv, if she is supporting that vig the lynch wagon is less pressing).

Point being that the current wagons are unstable and voters are likely to shift soon.

Plus:

Not voting: Secret Project

If I'm not mistaken this'll change soon? Are you still stuck on WK?