Mini 1180: Game Over

[Secret Project]

Someone should educate krew on how to wall properly.

Yoshi, the assumption that there's 3 scum is based on the setup speculation that was posted by someone, I can't remember who, saying that in a mini normal there's generally either 3 scum, no SK or 2 scum, an SK or 3 scum, an SK. Since we apparently have a vig, there's no way there's an SK as that would make for potentially 3 kills on one night, and a potential scum win as early as N3 if I calculated correctly.

Your second point, I don't particularly care to answer, as it makes no sense, and Ald isn't so much town to me as he is not scum at all. Haven't seen anything scummy from him.

Finally, if you can't tell us apart it means we're hydraing successfully. And anyway, most of that schizophrenia is from me.

BUT WHO IS ME???

[Secret Project]

Now then. I'm quite bored. Lynch please.

[Captain Corporal]

Secret, no. We're not lynching be ause you're bored. Take some initiative, we have time to talk.

[wierdalexv]

I still fail to see why you aren't voting me if I'm so obv-scum.

[DarthYoshi]

Yoshi, the assumption that there's 3 scum is based on the setup speculation that was posted by someone, I can't remember who, saying that in a mini normal there's generally either 3 scum, no SK or 2 scum, an SK or 3 scum, an SK. Since we apparently have a vig, there's no way there's an SK as that would make for potentially 3 kills on one night, and a potential scum win as early as N3 if I calculated correctly.

The vig point is good, and is well taken; a vig would mean no SK, but I have seen mini normals run with a 9:2:2 setup with two scum factions and there is a limited (one/two-shot) town-aligned vig.

Your second point, I don't particularly care to answer, as it makes no sense, and Ald isn't so much town to me as he is not scum at all. Haven't seen anything scummy from him.

Okay, then why isn't he null to you? IMO, someone needs to be able to prove themselves town--if they don't, but aren't doing anything scummy, they're null. But Ald is town to you.

And yeah, Krew, stop it with the tons of one-liner posts in rapid succession. You're not Ythan.

[Soben]

I'm going to make this extremely brief, SecretProject, I pointed out a great deal of flawed logic in your reasoning for why Wormy is mafia, so either attest that, provide more points of stop attempting to push it so strongly. While you're at it can you actually provide legitimate reasoning behind Brokenscrapsscum because I'm not seeing it at all. I can understand you viewing TWIE's aggression to the case put against him as a slight-town tell but I'm still expecting you to respond to the points I put against him, we had a deal, follow through with it.

WormyKrew, can we get a list of reads that both heads agree on in your next post with added reasoning if that's possible.

DarthYoshi, you're attacking Secret for suggesting 3 scum because you believe it's possible that there's two scum-teams howver you realize that contradicts your reasoning from moving Elsa to town.

[Soben]

For the record I find myself agreeing with Alex here, I don't care how long or unreadable your content in your quick-topic is Mastin, I would highly appreciate you share it, just please for the love god put it in a spoiler!

[mastin2]

Apparently, people weren't listening. I thought I made it clear that I was going to post it, despite the Mastin Logic, once done. (Though apparently not. I could have SWORN I said that. Could've SWORN I said that I said I wasn't going to try and convert it into more traditional logic. But can't find it in my ISO.) I simply flat-out haven't finished it. The wall is far from complete. I'm not exactly an Angel, you know. There's only so much I can do in the amount of time I've had.

Short version short, though--I've finished a project in Real Life, which was taking most of my time away, and have nothing in Real Life to interfere with my games anymore. When I finish the Wall, I'll post it. I'll hate myself, and I reserve the right to say, "I told you so" if you guys laugh/lose respectability for me due to the "logic" within. But it'll be posted. When I've finished building it.

[Ironhead]

I am still confident in my read of Alduskkel -- I thinks his ISO #4, 5, 7, and 13 are townish.

Okay, we’re going to have to do this the long way…what ABOUT his ISOs 4, 5, 7, and 13 seem townish to you?

4: Sharp, lucid responses. He pressed Secret Project to answer an old question. He accurately called BS on WormyKrew's assertion that AtE and scum-hunting were mutually exclusive. He probed you on your announcement that you were reaction-fishing. He questioned mastin2 on an incoherent summation. He pointed out a hole in Secret Project's logic.

5: Calmly offers a sound defense to a challenge from Secret Project.

7: Continues to probe mastin2 and Secret Project. Dismisses a very weak suggestion from mastin2 with decent logic.

13: Continues to probe several players with questions -- including you. His interaction with Soben seems genuine to me.

...

I don't think the last couple of pages have been pro-town. Mastin2 has exhausted my patience in terms of actually presenting his case; and now that he is on the verge of posting that wall of text (or so he claims he is), he is now massaging expectations by indicating that his logic is going to make us laugh or lose respect for him. Secret Project's presumable assumption that there are three scum sounds an awful lot like the slip of a scum who knows how many partners he has. WormyKrew's refusal to address issues from earlier in the day is appalling and exasperating. TWIE's rage seems feigned to me -- I'm aware, as are many others, I think, that many Mafia tutorials counsel rage as the preferred AtE when a scum is being pressured. In any case, rage is in no way townish and I don't know why Secret Project asserted that it was.

But I doubt they are all scum, and I'm not certain that any are; and their actions allows more level-headed players, such as Soben and DarthYoshi, to appear more townish by comparison. This is not good for the town.

[Alduskkel]

Here, have a wall. This covers the game up to my last post on page 27. Since after that any reading I do will not have the prefix "re." Comments for pages 27-32 will go in the next post. Also, this is pretty disorganized, sorry. But I'm going to leave it that way because organizing it would mean that it wasn't chronological.

Spoiler: Wall

VOTE: ironhead
We both agree that his single post was scummy. It's like he's trying to avoid RVS... I wonder why?

Weird question, with the implication that avoidance of the RVS is scummy (which makes no sense)*. Adds to the suspicion of Ironhead without really adding any content. For reference, this is after Secret Project expressed suspicion and voted, making this a slight case of bandwagoning to boot.

*Confirmed here:

Not liking RVS is obvscum. Lynchlynchlynch

unvote, vote: weirdalexv

TBH, I think Ironhead is null because of it (all though I'm still not sure if it was serious or just RVS-sarcasm, I can never tell the difference).

This was a very safe thing to say. You established yourself firmly on the fence without stepping on anyone's toes. I'd expect newbie town to do this, but not someone in a mini normal.

Bad vote: wierdalex had stated earlier while answering DY's RQs that he was inexperienced.

She didn't vote yet. It was a messed up quote.
Anyways, your preference doesn't matter. This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

So an explanation. Except that WormyKrew is creating a false dichotomy between RVS and RQS, which, as this game itself demonstrates, are not mutually exclusive.

I don't like how Jilynne says she has a post on Ironhead but it's literally just a thing about the stance on RQS/RVS.

Failing to realize that Ironhead had posted about the RVS, making jilynne's post relevant and relatable to Ironhead.
---
TWIE just bandwagons on jily in posts 88-89 without adding anything to the case. Just that jilynne's laziness (not wanting to "rewrite 5 sentences") is apparently a scum tell. With WormyKrew and Secret Project already expressing suspicion and jilynne being a player who very obviously won't be able to defend herself well, this is scummy as hell.

wierdalex does the same thing in 92, except that it's worse because it's sheeping what TWIE said* (meaning that weirdalex is managing to add even less to the case than TWIE's nothing) and he's the 4th person to express suspicion of jily as opposed to the 3rd.

*As DY notes in 101.

96: WormyKrew reconsiders his suspicions on Ironhead a bit, switches to voting jilynne. But he had expressed previous suspicion (he was the 2nd to do so, I believe) and expands the case making this not a bad vote. So WormyKrew gets town points back for this.

Wow... chainsaw defense like hell. You bussing, krew?

??? Really confusing actually. The chainsaw defense refers to scum

defending

a scumpartner by attacking their attacker. I mean, if WK is scum, and Ironhead is scum, then WK must be attacking Secret Project (the primary, if not the only, attacker of Ironhead at the time), right? Except he's not. Does not compute. I even checked WA's posts (WA being the other person SP called scum in post 104) for chainsawing, but there's nothing there.

109: As noted in 152 by SP, bandwagony post from splitfarvle that doesn't add anything to the case.

I've seen newbies "townslip" before. It's a clever tactic.

It's a gambit I've used before. Successfully.

Links, please.

Also, surprised nobody said "linkz plox".

Saying it now. linkz plox

Inb4 roleblock

Said after jilynne just started passing out information about her role like it was a ticking time bomb. But the critical thing about this post is that it brings up the possibility of a roleblock, but it took

490

posts for jilynne to freak out about it. Something is DEFINITELY not right here.
---
Secret Project vs. Ironhead argument ensues. I probably won't get into it much, but suffice it to say that Secret Project's case is/was weak (as I've said before) while Ironhead doesn't get that Secret Project was saying that the way/why Ironhead was appealing was scummy, not that appealing is in itself scummy.
---
Post 150 (Gerhard Krause) is still scummy, but I've talked about it before. Moving on.
---
Post 199: monk puts Ironhead on his town list.

Post 210:

Also you guys want a sheep? Now that I understand why you are wanting to see more pressure on Ironhead VOTE: Ironhead

What? Ironhead goes from town to big suspect apparently. Opportunism if I ever saw it. I will grant that WormyKrew and Secret Project were posting in between 199 and 210, but they didn't actually say anything new. And monk had to have had a reason for thinking Ironhead was town, so it wasn't even a change of null to scum.

241

Gerhard is a mislynch. Trust me on this.

Sure, Gerhard is scummy. But I know better than ANYONE else (*coughcoughpastvillageidiotcoughcough*) that there's a huge difference between scummy and scum. Gerhard is the former, not the latter. The scummy posts give off a town vibe when you double-check them. They look scummy, but look like they're coming from town.

If that makes sense.

I can elaborate, of course, but I would prefer not to. And would much rather you just trust me when I say Gerhard is not scum.

I feel like you're claiming a power role or something.

Rolefishing! Who knows how Mastin might have reacted. Mastin didn't react poorly (saying it was just his playstyle) so nothing came of it but on a reread the rolefishing here is very blatant.

276:

Also, something about Wormy makes me think he's scum, but I've tried to read his posts in iso, and I haven't found exactly what's setting off my radar. I'll try to post something about it in the near future unless he somehow proves he's town to me.
[snip]
So, in a nutshell, those two are the ones that I think might be scum, but I'm not voting either, since I have nothing on them yet.

After SP votes WK in 296, in 297:

Vote: WormyKrew

So, everyone, who are the top 2 candidates for a lynch here? Everyone please reply.

So what changed? I get the feeling in 276 that jilynne doesn't want to vote WK because she, in her own words, "[has] nothing on [him] yet." But as is plainly visible she turns around and votes WK anyway. The only person advocating gut feeling strongly was SP; but Captain Corporal and Ironhead both told her to be careful about it, i..e., don't trust it completely.


321:

Alduskkel -
To be honest, I AM pretty unsure of what I'm doing. I'm accusing Secret Project of trying to pickup small mistakes and blowing them out of proportion. I guess it's not entirely AtE, then, but it is damn right an annoyance. Secret Project, time to remember Mafia is a GAME and we are here to have FUN. Nothing else. There is nothing you can accomplish by making a fool of yourself.

If you're up against a good enough Mafia team, you're never probably never going to get big obvious scumtells. So that only leaves small mistakes and the overall picture of a person's play in the game.

Let's skip to 502 for a moment:

I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon. I just said it was BS. I've said it before, I'll say it again: wrong =/= scummy.

This is bad. I never said you suspected anyone either, I simply asked if you did and why. If you didn't, is it really too much to ask to say that you didn't and move on?

Now let's go back to 323:

I do think Alduskkel's casting suspicion on the WK wagon ('cept for me) is odd, hence my question to him

Hmmm!!! Pretty sure you were saying I was suspecting people on the wagon.

Not a whole lot until 424. TWIE essentially posts theory. While I know TWIE is/was busy, what bothers me is that

when he does post

, it's not scumhunting. His iso 7 (424 being iso 8) isn't much better.

@SP again
You were the first to say we were scum? IIRC it was Yoshi or mastin was. I will reread.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: SP
For the general :terribadposting:
~Krew

Err, what? Total 180. This is what, the third vote on SP? Anyway, the reasoning here is... nonexistent. And it's bandwagoning. That plus the rolefishing (and WK's um... unique... response to DY's attack) is making me reconsider my read on WormyKrew.

527:

Lol.

No, seriously.

Just...lol.

I don't know what in that post makes me laugh, but it's just extremely lolworthy. Let out a nice good laugh.

535:

First off--apologies for my last post. It was made at 2 AM and I was highly incoherent. (Had I been coherent, though, I might have done worse. Imagine if I MASHED my head on my keyboard. )

Still, though, point remains. There is literally nothing town in that post by WormyKrew. In my highly incoherent state, I expressed this with literal laughter at just how horrible of a post it was.

The post bleeds off scumminess, and I was laughing because of it. Don't believe me? Well, I'll explain in my case. Which I'll begin working on today. Won't finish today (I warned you of this before), but I will work on it.

Except there's nothing incoherent about 527. It doesn't make me go WTF. Since when is appealing to ridicule incoherent? It's pretty clear what you were doing in that post, and your attempt to excuse it after Ironhead called you scummy for it does not sit well with me. At best you used the wrong word.


561: Mastin calls Elsa town, without explaining why. Though Mastin not explaining his reads should hardly be surprising.

597:

5. jilynne1991 <--Confirmed-town. She was obv-town before her claim, confirmed town after it.

I wouldn't go as far as confirmed town, but the possibility that she is a PR means we probably shouldn't lynch her today.

[Alduskkel]

Though that's almost to be expected, since I think Mastin gets a lot of his wall-mode playstyle from me.

HA! SO YOU ADMIT IT!
(Whatever happened to you denying that 688 was an influence on me? )

Wherefore hast thou betrayeth me, Past Alduskkel? O woe is me.
---
While I don't like the meta part of the TWIE case, I will say that it is true that TWIE has been lurking and not doing a whole lot of scumhunting. But that's not enough for me to vote him, although if the lack of scumhunting continues I will. The point is that TWIE needs to scumhunt more, rather than defend so much.

Alex was good enough for a page 5? vote. We are no longer on page 5.
At this point I would expect legitimate cases for votes. Or at least be blatant that you're sheeping.

But... you're still voting for alex. And you haven't updated your case on him, even. If you don't want to change it because you're afraid of being accused of OMGUS... then I don't understand why you're afraid of that. All it takes to dismiss OMGUS is to say, "It's not OMGUS, I am voting for X because of [reasons]."

Also, venting your frustration instead of responding to the case on you is not pro-Town play (e.g. in 753). Not necessarily scummy, since you might actually be very frustrated.

You know what causes people to say "are you fucking kidding me" like 30 times when someone's building a case on them? Knowing for a fact that the case is THAT FUCKING STUPID. And it is. It really is.

But even if the case is stupid, if someone started attacking me for BS reasons then I would be incredibly pissed

regardless of my alignment

. As Town because I know they're wrong. As Scum because that's the worst way to get "caught."
---

Did I say you were scum? I'm pretty sure I haven't done so once in this game.

lol what? I don't know if this a hilarious (and scummy) inconsistency or just a result of you being a hydra. You really need to stop acting like two different people in-thread and get both of your reads to coalesce.
---

Jily--I'll repeat. I doubt they have a roleblocker.

But Roleblocker is one of the most common scum roles. Why don't you think there is one?
Also if you're Mafia and the Mafia have a Roleblocker then there is serious scum motivation here.

Also, I just realized that putting things in a spoiler means that you can't pull a quick find in page for a word you're looking for in an iso without opening all the spoilers. So please tone down the spoilers, Mastin. Put walls in spoilers, nothing else.
---

Also,

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

WK is not off the hook, not by a long shot, but Ald hasn't offered legitimate content since last Thursday, and unlike Elsa, didn't actually declare V/LA. He has parked his vote on what started as the Gerhard Krause playslot and hasn't moved it once, which on D1 is a significant scumtell for me, because (1) it indicates both a lack of proactive scumhunting using your most powerful scumhunting weapon, (2) that he has placed it where he now knows the lynch likely won't occur, so he won't be on the wagon that will be subsequently scrutinized if the lynchee flips town, and (3, and perhaps most importantly), he voted the GK slot and then doesn't do much interacting with that slot as of late--I think town is much more apt to interact with the players they think are scum to try to get them to slip further; compartmentalizing your D1 interactions is very much scummy.

This is strengthened by the reality that Ald has completely abstained from the vig-vote discussion. I was V/LA and still managed to contribute to it in my very first post back.

WK can wait. Let's lynch Alduskkel.

Let me just point to the wall above this post. That's what I've been doing for the past few days, that and rereading. I KNOW I've been playing awfully up until now. But I intend to play better, and I hope that itself will be the answer to your case.

And why didn't I vig vote? Because I wanted to reread first and then make a more informed decision over who I thought jily should target.

(This also answers wierdalex's post 743.)
---

@jil
Did you just claim Dayvig?

Possible rolefishing? Hard to say, if I were scum I would figure that jily had already completely revealed her role.
---
774: Good catch, DY.
---
At this point I suspect WormyKrew, Captain Corporal and jilynne1991, in about that order. I've got my eye on TWIE, Elsa, and Mastin too, mostly for content.

Unvote,
Vote: WormyKrew

.

Vig-Vote: Captain Corporal

.

[Captain Corporal]

Ald, I like your wall so far. I need to do some thorough reading of it, methinks.
Also, what's your case on me?

Lastly, I'd like everyone to give their thoughts on me. I don't like the fact that everyone seems to be one-minded on gettig one person lynched.

[Soben]

Captain, we think you are town. I also have a concern that our lynch options may be too narrow. Both Regfan and I really don't like TWIE's reactions, but at the same time I at least can envision a universe where he flips town. I still think TWIE is quite likely scum though. One thing that sticks out to me is that as hard as we have been pushing on TWIE, the support for a TWIE lynch has been stagnant and slow to grow. That actually just reinforces our feelings that he will flip scum as its almost always harder to start a wagon on scum than on town.

That being said, if there is a compelling case for someone else I'd be willing to discuss it with R and I'm at least open-minded to other lynch options today. I've been afky the last couple days so I haven't been the one making all those logical annoying as hell posts from this slot. XD

[DarthYoshi]

DarthYoshi, you're attacking Secret for suggesting 3 scum because you believe it's possible that there's two scum-teams howver you realize that contradicts your reasoning from moving Elsa to town.

Fair enough. I'll rephrase--I don't think Elsa can be scum with Alex. I suppose as well there is the outside possibility of a two-person scumteam if the setup is close to mountainous, but I doubt it.

Mastin, just give us what you have. It doesn't have to be a finished product. Time is ticking, we're down to just over a week left of D1 (and that is after the fairly generous deadline extension).

their actions allows more level-headed players, such as Soben and DarthYoshi, to appear more townish by comparison. This is not good for the town.

Why is this bad for the town when I am town?

I need to re-read Ald's ISO in light of your commentary on him as well as his brand-new wall. I will say that I stand corrected on Ald's point about the expression of suspicion on the WK wagon.

Lastly, I'd like everyone to give their thoughts on me. I don't like the fact that everyone seems to be one-minded on gettig one person lynched.

You're very much null to me. You haven't done anything that I see as really scummy, but you haven't convinced me yet that you're town either. I get Soben's point about the narrowness of D1 lynch options that we are presenting ourselves with, but I don't think you should be today's lynch by any means.

Possible rolefishing? Hard to say, if I were scum I would figure that jily had already completely revealed her role.

Keep in mind that WK was also rolefishing on me earlier in the day (the whole "are you afraid you'll die tonight?" questioning).

One thing that sticks out to me is that as hard as we have been pushing on TWIE, the support for a TWIE lynch has been stagnant and slow to grow. That actually just reinforces our feelings that he will flip scum as its almost always harder to start a wagon on scum than on town.

Funny, I could say the exact same thing about my trying to start an Alduskkel wagon.

FTR, I get the case on TWIE, and I'll hop onto his wagon if you need to secure a majority, he just hasn't been the scummiest yet for me, so my vote hasn't been on him.

Current suspect list (pending a re-read of Alduskkel):
Alduskkel
WK
TWIE/Alex/SP all vying for the #3 spot.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, I will admit that meta is messing with my head somewhat with my TWIE read...while his level of activity is off, imo, his hostile tone is very much similar to my previous game with him, and in that game, it did make me suspicious of him. He flipped town instead. I need to think about this some more.

[Soben]

Darth, if you have a link to that game with TWIE it would be helpful.

I agree with you about your concern about Ironhead's comment. What's wrong with rational town players? Yes, yes I get that Ironhead meant its not good to have players look town only because other players look scummy, but Ironhead himself said he had a strong town read on our slot so I'm not really sure what he's getting at.

[Ironhead]

their actions allows more level-headed players, such as Soben and DarthYoshi, to appear more townish by comparison. This is not good for the town.

Why is this bad for the town when I am town?

I agree with you about your concern about Ironhead's comment. What's wrong with rational town players? Yes, yes I get that Ironhead meant its not good to have players look town only because other players look scummy, but Ironhead himself said he had a strong town read on our slot so I'm not really sure what he's getting at.

What I am getting at is that the comparison is skewing everyone's reads of you guys. In a vacuum, or compared to other rational posts, you two might not appear so townish. But when you can generate several posts of pointing out the profound flaws in other player's flailing, you capitalize upon their scumminess to appear townish. Whether you are town or scum, you didn't have to try hard to achieve authenticity in your posts because those other players really are posting that poorly.

As DY asked, "Why is this bad for the town when I am town?" The answer is that it is not,

if

you are town; but I don't know that you are town, and my impression of you is based on your posting. If your posting is skewed townish due to the scummy posting of others, then my read of you is affected directly.

...

I agree with Soben that it is suspiciously difficult to generate momentum on a TWIE wagon. He has certainly done enough to appear scummy enough for a wagon; although on the other hand, there are several players who have been acting scummy. Some of them -- including both Secret Project and WormyKrew -- appear to be unpredictable and illogical players, and that casts a modicum of doubt on my reads of them. But with TWIE, it appears that he knows what he is doing, and the recent raging is problematic. Like Soben, I would like to see the previous game where he raged and flipped town; until then, I will join this bandwagon:

UNVOTE: WORMYKREW
VOTE: TWIE

[DarthYoshi]

@Soben: Newbie 1100--http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17380

@Ironhead: AFAIK, you're the only one who is feeling like your read may be skewed (you say "everyone,") and yet IIRC, you've been saying I'm town for quite a while now. So, again, what gives? Are you second-guessing that read? If you want, meta me--as town, I tend to be a fairly rational (I hope!) sort of player.

[TheWayItEnds]

Darth, if you have a link to that game with TWIE it would be helpful.

No no... we read your meta extensively... wait that game we posted earlier and pointed at had TWIE rage in it?
Weird.

[Soben]

TWIE, I have read through your games extensively, Scumhunter has only browsed through them, it was him asking for the link.

DY, I don't see that much ressemblence in his rage in that game and this game. Although he raged in that game to a degree his still provided ample content whereas in this game he's attempted to use rage to cover the fact he continues to post no content.

[mastin2]

*sigh*

I warned you when I said I wasn't completed.

Let's call these "Part One". As in, "Cases, Part One; don't you DARE lynch/vig before you have Part Two". (Part Two hopefully including everything.)

Keep in mind--this is just the first four pages in WORDS, but in my MIND, I'm in the thirties. As in, there are a LOT of concepts here which stretch over the whole course of the game, but which I cannot express until later, and will be doing so.

Spoiler: TOWN CASE

VOTE: DarthYoshi Dinosaur sith are not a thing

This is a good-hearted, honest-natured, RVS-vote. There's no bad tone in it. It has that town tone, the tone of having fun as town.

In more traditional terms, there's also his having missed that the RVotes wouldn't count--his lack of careful reading is a towntell, since I've found that--traditionally--scum tend to scrutinize the ruleset, whereas town just essentially assume everything's pretty much the standard ruleset.

(It might not be to you the strongest town-tell, but it's still a town-tell.)
(Also, to make sure it's clear--I don't consider the inverse to be a scumtell. Just for the record.)

we're not in pregame jily, let's hear what you've got

This, combined with Monk's earlier statement that they WERE, is reason to believe that Monk is town who is legitimately inquiring into things.

just saying but Ironhead is right on his "RVS doesn't really create pressure" I have never felt pressure in any of my games so far from RVS. but then I haven't felt any pressure from rqs. Jily's playing more or less the same game she has been playing in all her games, I get a null read, nothing particularly out of the ordinary with her posts

This looked like an honest attempt to scumhunt. It admittedly was not a very good attempt, but it had the tone of a newb-town player.

4) Well, I'm assuming RQS is Random Question Stage. I prefer RQS, because I can get more information. I dislike RVS, because it's too easy to kill a person too early. Oh, and I've only played with RVS, but I dislike it.

This is the kind of assumption I'd only see with a town train of thought. Dislikes what she's seen in the past, and so assumes that the alternative (RQS) is better. I don't think Jily as scum would think like that.

/confirm
Sorry, meant to confirm on my first post.

This is another bit of a town-tell, the fact that she was so intent on playing the game that she forgot to confirm.

"Why's that a towntell rather than a null-tell?"

Because she was specifically looking forward to scumhunting. It's in her tone. If she was scum, she wouldn't go, "oh, goody, I'm so excited I get to deceive the town! This will be so much fun!" and forget. It just doesn't work that way.

I was just going to post a whole thing about ironhead and some other stuff, and then I realized we're still pregame. I bet this game's gonna turn out well. Especially with all this activity.

The fact that she put the effort into this should tell you she was town. The fact that she was anticipating the game should tell you she is town. The fact that she scrapped it all thinking it wasn't needed should make you realize she was town who simply saw no need to post it.

Well, I don't feel like typing it up again, so in a nutshell, I pretty much wrote the following:

I don't like RVS either (meaing that although I like spectating, I don't like participating.) And that not liking RVS isn't necesarilly a scum tell.

This furthers the feeling.

Please explain this part of your post, it was basically useless. (I'm sorry if I missed something, I probably did, but can someone explain the point of it anyways?)

Reads as a town tone, this not understanding.

RVS. Votes are info.

I can't pin it down. (So call it Gut if you MUST, though this doesn't feel like gut.) But something in here makes this feel town, rather than null. Something about the Tone just seems to be in the mind-set of a pro-town player.

What information related to the game have we gained from knowing timezones, games completed, and projected activity level?

This makes it a little more explicit. It doesn't have the slight condescending/scolding tone I'd expect from scum. It has the curious, puppy-like feeling of a pro-town player legitimately asking, wanting to get a real answer rather than a rhetorical one.

Alright... then based on our responses to those questions who looks the most like scum?

Again, this appears to be legitimately trying to get an answer, to get real info from Jily. Rather than a rhetorical (slightly condescending) question. Tone is everything.

/late to the RVS party

Vote Jily

You couldn't be bothered to rewrite 5 sentences?

Contrary to popular belief, this is NOT a scum way of thinking. Quite the opposite, I've never, EVER seen scum think this way. It's always town. Especially the bolded.

4. I prefer RQS. It is too easy for scum to fly under the radar in RVS, because of course their votes are not random.

This methodical approach to the game seems like a town take on things. Iron was essentially advocating equal pressure on all players, which RQS generates. Equal pressure-->equal attention on all players-->scum can't slip under the radar. In other words, Iron was quite logically deducing that the best strategy for the town was the RQS.

Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

This furthers the above, in that Iron wanted equal distribution, equal pressure applied, rather than focusing on a single player via bandwagoning.

By the way, I hate unjustified bandwagons -- another way for scum to fly under the radar.

To Iron, everything must have a reason behind it. And if the reason is invisible, Iron can't analyze it. And therefore, to Iron, it looks bad. This shows a town thought process, in that he's trying to make sense of the game.

Also, since this is not the first time I've worked on an Ironhead is Town case, my notes from last time:
(Abandoned due to Scumhunter Rendering it pretty unnecessary, but still...)

Equal distribution. I don't know about you, but to me, this sounds like a logical approach to the game: balance things out equally, rather than tip the scales towards one person. (A bandwagon.)

I thought I made the connection pretty solid between what wierdalex said and what the implication is. Are you indicting the connection? If so, where exactly did I fail to connect the argument to the conclusion?

Key word usage here. "Connect". Multiple times. In this context, it's very strong.

I think RQS generates more useful discussion than RVS -- besides, not everyone gets pressured during RVS.

This makes logical sense, since Random Votes for Random Reasons are difficult (some say impossible, though I disagree) to decipher, whereas Random Questions and Answers are comparatively easier to figure out. It also creates a valid point about pressure, again bringing up the logical, "balanced" view from Ironhead.

I have asked you to explain your failure to follow my logic (please review post #68) and you have not only ignored it, but you continue to obfuscate. You are not acting in the best interests of the town. If you wish to exercise the town's power to lynch, it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate a strong reason. Saying "I personally want to see Iron go first" is not a compelling reason.

I am a stickler for unimpeachable logic (as splitfarvle can attest, as we just finished a game together). If you are going to sling faulty logic through this game, I will identify it as garbage for you. Poor logic in itself is not a definitive scum-tell, but it is not pro-town.

This quote shows both his firm devotion to putting logic back into scumhunting, along with prodding WormyKrew somewhat, testing them, to get a feel for whether they're just anti-town playstyle, or anti-town role. (In other words, scumhunting.)

The point is, the uninformed town can be manipulated by the scum without even knowing they are being manipulated

[*snip*]

and no one can avoid having to take an early stand on some semi-relevant question.

When this is combined, you end up getting a solid town-read from Iron. It's hard to explain. Like it only comes from a town perspective. I'm trying to figure out an explanation for it. It's just a thought process, a thought pattern, a kind of Motivation (I suppose) that only comes from town.

Was that a serious [pregame] vote (I mean, it won't count, but is it with the intent of voting me when the game starts)? Because I don't see what we would really get out of just voting everybody randomly.

This is one of the possible hints that Alex is town. His curious attitude doesn't read in this post to me as being scum. (In other words, it doesn't seem like "Why Me = Fry Me"*. )

*

(For the record, that saying was not around when I was a regular at EpicMafia and I don't endorse its usage.)

Well then, I guess I should come out right now and say that I am considered an active lurker. I don't try to, but everyone says I do. I dunno. And people keep telling me I'm obnoxious. I don't try to.

*link to one of his games*

This seemed good-natured. Like he was being upfront and town, truthfully telling us about himself, being open and allowing us to read into him. Giving off that town Tone, a tone hard to fake.

All I've been is Vanilla Townie, so I have no clue.

This is Alex's town-slip. There's no Weasel Wording. No, "so far" after "been". Nothing to suggest that it's changed in this game. If it had changed, I'd expect something like "Up to this point, all I've been", or "All I've been so far is", "all I've been previously is", "All I have been is", "All I have been in the past", etc. Something like that, if it weren't the case right now.

I didn't see that. I saw someone accidentally soft-claiming VT, without realizing they town-slipped.

@Ironhead: What's so bad about it? You get a few good reads, and it generates enough discussion to get the game going.

This innocence looks legitimate, like it was said with the town intonation.

Agreed. I want to hear what Jily has to say about it.

I have a hard time believing Alex would blatantly sheep a scumbuddy, so Alex is not scum with WormyKrew. Since WormyKrew is my main suspect...

I find it odd you'd call this "personal benefit".

This is a question which can only come from town.

That said, I've only READ RQS and never been a part of it.

For the same reason this is a town-tell for Jily, it is a town-tell for Secret as well.

Ironhead's post puts way more than weirdalex actually said into his mouth. Trying to paint something as scummy that's totally null.

Immediately comes to scumhunting the moment he can. It gives off that town impression.

Notice how his language changes in between his 2nd and 3rd post. It's an interesting defense, I've never seen it done, but he enhances his language after me and worm got on him, as if that makes him look more town.

I have a hard time believing scum would pick up in a change of tone in posts. It's something a pro-town player would think of, though. It also gives off the town tunnel vibe, rather than the scum tunnel vibe.

Town, easily. There's SO much less pressure on me, and therefore much less lurking (such is usually my awful scum playstyle). In all, it makes for a more active/fun game for me.

This gives me reason to believe Elsa's town, since if she wasn't, she'd be more obligated to replace out. Why? She's V/LA and would have more pressure. She's V/LA and would know that'd mean she'd appear to be lurking.

She's V/LA and doesn't want to get out, so she must be having fun.

See where this is going?

Hah, I had no idea that votes were not counting yet. I think I saw someone else vote and did so myself, thinking the RVS was upon us.

For the same reason Monk is town, so too is Elsa.


Gerhard is town. The way he handled the RV out of the RVS was done well.

This was a very safe thing to say. You established yourself firmly on the fence without stepping on anyone's toes. I'd expect newbie town to do this, but not someone in a mini normal.

This legitimate scumhunting also solidifies that. His vote was well-placed and his stance was justified.

Spoiler: SCUM CASE

First off, if Yoshi is scum, it's not with either TWIE or Alduskkel.
Why?
A simple but eloquent tell:

*waves at Alduskkel and TWIE*

This is important, because if Yoshi were scum with either, he'd simply say this in the scum QT and not mention something of this nature in-thread.

1. wierdalexv
2. splitfarvie Scumhunter
3. Elsa von Spielburg
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal
5. jilynne1991
6. TheWayItEnds
7. DarthYoshi
8. monk
9. Secret Project
10. Ironhead
11. Alduskkel
12. flinter mastin2
13. WormyKrew

This is just a matter of randomization, but I sincerely doubt both Alduskkel and WormyKrew would be scum, not that closely tied together. Yoshi, on the other hand, is right in the zone.

Of course, I

can never

probably shouldn't

use this in-thread; people will consider it TOO insane. But it IS a valid reason in MY opinion! >_<

^I posted this in my QT earlier. Essentially, it said "Ald and WormyKrew aren't scum together, but Yoshi could be with either of them." (Though now it's pretty much only WormyKrew.)

Vote: Secret Project. Secrecy is scummy, duh.

Tone. It's RVS, but the tone in here is off. It's unnatural, artificial.

I'm pretty active. I'll do my best to post every day.

Said Tuesday 31st in May. (Yes, I'm going to keep track of this. Yoshi himself has admitted it's one of the most important questions.)

Why are not trying to be "attack-ish?" Don't want to alienate us lest we try to lynch you?

This reads as the condescending scum attitude. I don't see this as the town legitimately inquiring. This gives off the Tone of scum who is trying to take advantage of a poor player, who is prodding her, looking for potential weaknesses and bandwagon viability.

Alex creates a (albeit weak) link to a Yoshi-Alex pairing in #31.

With a net. Or, I'm still working on how to avoid associative tells, so if I had a buddy flip, finding me might not be too hard.

This gave off the tone of Lampshade Hanging. (What? I lampshade all the time when I'm scum! It's incredibly obvious after I'm dead, but virtually invisible while I'm alive.)

@Alduskkel: If your vote on me was RVS, why are you wagoning me instead of monk? If your vote wasn't RVS, why are you voting me?

You see? This is the kind of "why" which doesn't come off to me as being the legitimate scumhunting kind. It feels like the scummy "why me" version, rather than the pro-town "explain" version. Kinda hard to explain, but it's all in the Tone.

(Also, I BELIEVE this post made me originally think Yoshi-Ald as a scumteam, due to it coming off as scum voting scumbuddy, and scumbuddy asking "why". I've since grown to believe they're not scum together [see above], but I once did.)

Can you please elaborate?

Once more, this did not seem like the town tone, asking for further reasoning. In this case, it being polite made it sound worse than if it had been blunt and to the point. Creates an Iron-Yoshi link, though I think Iron's town.

I have not seen a RQ that I liked, so I prefer RVs

Highly ironic and somewhat hypocritical.

Ear's 23 seems condescending, in the scum sort of way. (Tone is key.)

I personally prefer scum, because I enjoy manipulating people.

Funnily enough, that's pretty much exactly what seems to have happened. WormyKrew's posts contain a lot of things which tend to give the aura of trying to get on people's good sides.

More than that, a bit of a crazy theory: They decided Ear would represent them until the hydra got activated. Then, they got the scum PM. Ear got worried, not liking to play as scum. Sleepy took over specifically because Sleepy likes being scum.

VOTE: ironhead
We both agree that his single post was scummy. It's like he's trying to avoid RVS... I wonder why?

This seems like blatant sheeping/parroting of the other hydra, Secret Project.

Not liking RVS is obvscum. Lynchlynchlynch
RQS is not pressure.

So, essentially, Sleepy went after the easy wagons of Jily (newb) and Ironhead (Secret Project supported).

Anyways, your preference doesn't matter. This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

Reads as condescending, perhaps as scum coaching.

Anyways, your preference doesn't matter. This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

This tone is that of the typical condescending scum.

So, I'm thinking Iron/jil team? I personally want to see Iron go first.

Making the above official, after Secret had reaffirmed his dislike of both, essentially, further buddying up to Secret by sheeping his reads.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jil

Blatant bandwagoning.

Jil is playing really bad.

The thing is. There's a huge difference between "playing bad" and "scum".

By stating "Jily is playing really bad", WormyKrew has effectively scumslipped, in revealing they think Jily is town, playing bad, not scum. See how that works?

It wasn't "Jily is anti-town". Voting someone anti-town is a bit of a newb-mistake, but is mostly null. It wasn't "jily is scummy". That'd be scumhunting. It was, specifically, "Jily is playing really bad".

Saying someone is Anti-Town makes no statement either way. It's neutral. Saying someone is scummy makes a statement that you think they're more likely to be scum (most frequently, anyway).

"Playing Bad", on the other hand, has the OPPOSITE implication, that you think they're TOWN. And yet, they vote Jily, anyway. Hence, the scumslip.

Why would it matter in the first place if we were in pregame or not? You could've still posted your thoughts.

This is the condescending scum Tone. Not the legitimately curious town tone.

Jil needs massive pressure

This? This is a further admittance to knowing Jily is town. How? "Massive Pressure", rather than "desperate need of rope". It's just how town thinks. Town doesn't think, "this person's scummy, so they need massive pressure".

They'll either think, "Oh, this person needs some pressure VOTE: person", or "this person needs rope". It's all in the exact wording. Details are vital, giving off a completely different feel to a post.

Because I don't see what we would really get out of just voting everybody randomly.

This creates a

possible

contradiction, in that Alex...voted randomly. (This is weak. Very weak.)

I dunno why, TBH.

This is another (extremely weak!) possible reason Alex could be scum: the fact that he voted Yoshi pre-game, but doesn't know why he did so when he knows it won't count. Creates a Yoshi-Alex link.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4) Wiredalexv, Alduskkel, Monk

At this stage in the game, you'd kinda expect one scum there.

It seems odd that Jily couldn't be bothered to write out 5 sentences.
Somewhat serious VOTE: Jilynne1991

It's a bit concerning to see Alex bandwagoning, for a somewhat flimsy wagon, which reason isn't even that original.

2. I have a wiki. For your convenience though, I have completed 23 non-marathon games. I think that makes me one of the more experienced players in the game, although Elsa and Ironhead seem to have loads of IRL experience.

Tone in here seems a bit condescending. It sort-of gives off the impression, "Look at me! I'm more experienced than you! You can listen to me!" Like Ald is taking advantage of his experience.

Vote: DarthYoshi

A reasonless Random Vote. I find it a bit hard to believe, honestly.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4) Wiredalexv, Alduskkel, Monk

While admittedly weak, it would not be uncommon to have one scum in there.

And if you laugh (and/or no longer hold any respect whatsoever for my reads), I so totally get to say "I told you so".

[DarthYoshi]

Mastin, thank you. I still think you're wrong, but I can at least say why I think you're wrong besides simply repeating, "Nah uh!"

^I posted this in my QT earlier. Essentially, it said "Ald and WormyKrew aren't scum together, but Yoshi could be with either of them." (Though now it's pretty much only WormyKrew.)

This is going to be a common point I'll return to--I have four completed games as scum. In only one of them have I ever bussed a buddy on D1, and in that game (Chesskid's fishslappers mafia) it was out of necessity when the deadline was a-comin' 'round the bend. I have voted both Ald and WK without any urgency.

Tone. It's RVS, but the tone in here is off. It's unnatural, artificial.

Actually, there isn't a whole lot I can say to this other than "Nah uh." I know you're wrong, but there isn't a whole lot aside from dying that will prove that I am right.

Said Tuesday 31st in May. (Yes, I'm going to keep track of this. Yoshi himself has admitted it's one of the most important questions.)

What does this have to do with me being scum? Has my activity level not been to your liking or something?

This reads as the condescending scum attitude. I don't see this as the town legitimately inquiring. This gives off the Tone of scum who is trying to take advantage of a poor player, who is prodding her, looking for potential weaknesses and bandwagon viability.

Okay, Mastin, you get the benefit of hindsight as a player who replaced in, but I didn't. When I made the post you're referring to, it was impossible to know that Jily was that weak of a player--this was way before her drawn-out role claim, ink vomit, and etc. Additionally, I've long since changed my tune and have been adamant in saying that we aren't lynching Jily today, despite her "easy lynch" status. You can read that as white knighting if you want, but know that if you do, it runs completely contrary to what you're saying here is a scumtell.

Alex creates a (albeit weak) link to a Yoshi-Alex pairing in #31.

I'll point once again to my meta. I don't bus on D1.

This gave off the tone of Lampshade Hanging. (What? I lampshade all the time when I'm scum! It's incredibly obvious after I'm dead, but virtually invisible while I'm alive.)

Huh? Or, I said it because it's freaking true. Two of the three times I was lynched as scum, it was because I was caught after a buddy had flipped. I'm almost never the first scum lynched in a game, but I really suck at avoiding associative tells. If I'm scum, and you guys kill a different scum, I would probably end up sticking out like a sore thumb.

You see? This is the kind of "why" which doesn't come off to me as being the legitimate scumhunting kind. It feels like the scummy "why me" version, rather than the pro-town "explain" version. Kinda hard to explain, but it's all in the Tone.

Okay, so it's in the tone, since I am (in so many words) asking Ald to explain an unexplained RVS vote. Again, nothing I can really say or do to prove you're wrong short of dying. Moving on...

Once more, this did not seem like the town tone, asking for further reasoning. In this case, it being polite made it sound worse than if it had been blunt and to the point. Creates an Iron-Yoshi link, though I think Iron's town.

Asking for further reasoning is a scumtell? Dude, read my town games, that's just how I ask questions. My town game has changed A LOT from my very first game here that you ICed.

If you've been keeping track at home, three of Mastin's points against me are simply gut feeling about the 'tone' of my posts. I honestly don't know how to refute that aside from re-asserting my intent, as I've done here. If you want me vigged to prove my truthfulness, then vote to have me vigged.

Other general items of note about Mastin's case on me--

Almost all of these points come from very early in the game, which strongly suggests tunnelvision on Mastin's part.

For me to be scum in Mastin's worldview, it would have to be with Alex, Ald, or WK (maybe monk given Mastin's arugment about the VC). In the former two cases, that means a mutual bus was in effect on D1, which might work in the instance of Alex, since we cross-voted relatively early, but certainly not in the case of Ald, where I was vacillating and working on a case on him for a long time--if I were scum, it'd be much easier to just bus him, knowing that I was right. As for WK, note what I said to Mastin earlier in the game when he voted WK--why would Mastin vote for his #1 scumread's #1 scumread? Because his #1 scumread is actually town.

All of that is to say (in the above paragraph)--Mastin tends to put a lot of emphasis on VC and association in his scumhunting, but if you go by association, the only possible partner who Mastin also suspected that might make a lick of sense would be Alex--except that I have had my vig vote parked on him for a while now, so I am clearly unafraid of him dying and potentially flipping scum. In Mastin's view of the game, of who is most likely to be scum,

me being scum just doesn't add up.

[Soben]

Mastin, believe me when I say that I completly understand reading into a players tone to attempt to work out their allignment because the truth is that tone is the hardest thing for mafia to continue to fake throughout a game. I do believe though that you've taken initial slight tone reflectors and exaggerated them massively to attempt to explain your reads when those instances of town-style town are minimal, weak and rare. If you're attempting to determine whether a player is town or not via their actual posts motivations what you should be looking for is what have they done in an attempt to help and propel town further into the game, by doing so I do indeed get a slight town-read from Jillyn and Alex therefore can understand your reads on them however I continue to be startled by your insistance that TWIE and Elsa are town. To further that of, your reasoning behind your DarthYoshi scum-read do not make any logical sense, it all revovles around 'gut' and relies heavily on player interactions which may be useful further into the game mean absolutely nothing in a situation like this.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Yoshi Response

This is going to be a common point I'll return to--I have four completed games as scum. In only one of them have I ever bussed a buddy on D1, and in that game (Chesskid's fishslappers mafia) it was out of necessity when the deadline was a-comin' 'round the bend. I have voted both Ald and WK without any urgency.

Oh. Right. This reminds me.

Something I was going to make clear in the finished case (but didn't do in the above, thanks to it being posted while incomplete), was that I believe ONE OF Yoshi/Ald to be scum FOR SURE, but that the OTHER among them would be confirmed town.

What does this have to do with me being scum? Has my activity level not been to your liking or something?

Yet another thing which was meant for a finished case. Specifically, when I got around to ISOs, checking activity in them, from "promised" to "delivered". See if they match up. (I DID warn you it wasn't even close to finished...)

Asking for further reasoning is a scumtell?

Strawmanning the point. The point was that you asked in a polite tone for my reasoning, which was the scum way to word things, versus the town way, which would be far more blunt and to the point.

If you've been keeping track at home, three of Mastin's points against me are simply gut feeling about the 'tone' of my posts.

I'm going to make this as clear as I can.

Tone is

NOT

the same thing as gut!

Why such emphasis on it? Well, to be quite frank, I could ramble all day on the difference between them, but it's better suited for MD, and I'd rather not clutter the thread in here with that. So, instead of the huge ramble explaining how they're different, you get huge text.

Almost all of these points come from very early in the game, which strongly suggests tunnelvision on Mastin's part.

Two things. 1: I am a strong advocate of early-game play being far more telling than mid-to-late-game play. Specifically, I've been a strong advocate of "all the information needed to find the scumteam within the first ~5 pages". (Give or take a couple.) So, yeah. Of COURSE I have a lot of stuff on the early game, because to me, the early game is quite frankly more vital than the late game.

2: As I said. The case might extent only to the first four pages in words. But in my mind, I'm in the thirties. In other words, I have to physically type out twenty-five-ish pages which my mind has already worked out, and worked out long ago. In other words, of COURSE it's only the early game; that's exactly what I warned you of, that I wasn't finished. But that it is FAR from all of my case, because there's a lot more--it's just all in my head, and typing out the twenty-five pages already in my head takes a LOT of time.

As for Soben's post:
I tried to make sense of it, but I can't. It's an incoherent wall of words I can't seem to understand.

[mastin2]

(Sorry. This game is a great reminder of how I need to take Notes far,

far

more often. )