A Gentleman's Game of Guile, Subterfuge, and Intrigue (Fin)

[AurorusVox]

Jily: Vezok hasn't posted since your last few posts. What's changed to make him definite town now in your eyes?

[jilynne1991]

...Considering what the flavor cop's said...and he wouldn't have any reason to lie. Anyways...I think it's either you or Feysal is scum, so I think vezo is defintiely town.

[AurorusVox]

Two things:

(1) You had the flavour cop information from D2, so why is it only now that you're considering Vezok as confirmed town?
(2) Do you think Feysal and I could be scum

together

?

[jilynne1991]

1) Because I didn't find anyone else scummy before just today.

2)No, you guys definitely can't be scum together. I'd like to lynch either you or Feysal.

[AurorusVox]

2)No, you guys definitely can't be scum together. I'd like to lynch either you or Feysal.

Why can't we be scum together?
Do you have a reason for finding me and Feysal scummy?

[jilynne1991]

Well I think Feysal is scummy, because of PoE.

For you, it's because, I feel like I can never quite get a read on you. It's kind of like, I think you're a good enough player, that you won't scumslip, even if you were scum.

[AurorusVox]

Well I think Feysal is scummy, because of PoE.

Okay, this is what I was after.
Feysal can't be scummy because of PoE because you think Feysal and I aren't scum together, i.e. if you have a reason for thinking I'm scum you shouldn't PoE Feysal as scum; you could say he's scum if I flip town, but logically your move would be to pressure me as scum first.

Can you explain why you think Feysal and I cannot be scum together?

The other thing about PoE is that it also implies you think everyone else (Vezok, Imaginality and

Hoppster

) are town. But Imaginality is confirmed town to you. Presumably you're clearing Vezok for the same reason as me (lord_hur investigate). What about Hoppster? If Feysal and I

cannot

be scum together, as you quite adamantly stated, PoE should indicate that Hoppster is 100% scum in your opinion.

Why haven't you followed up on this?
If you think Hoppster is town, PoE would indicate Feysal and I

were

scum together.

Your scumlists and reasons for finding people make little sense.
I believe this is because you're falsifying/fabricating them, i.e. you're trying to come up with reasons for finding people scummy that you don't really think are true (whilst forgetting that they don't really make sense) and thereby slipping that you're scum.

[jilynne1991]

The way you talk about Feysal...it just makes me 100% sure there's no way you guys are scum together.

The thing is, even though I have a reason for thinking you were scum, you still seem more town than scum. So let's just say I factor out you. That leaves me thinking that Feysal is the scummiest. Does that make sense to you?

Also, I really do think my reasons are true.

Ok, I so adamantly refused to believe Hoppster was scum, because he doesn't think I'm scum. So actually PoE tells me that Hoppster and Feysal should be scum together. I suppose Hoppster could be scum. I just doubt it.

I have a gut feeling that Hoppster isn't...and so far, my gut feelings have never turned out wrong.

I suppose I could see you and Hoppster together, since you guys kind of play the way I play when I'm scum. Ugh, this is confusing.

[Wraith]

Votecount 4.1

jilynne1991

(2)

:

vezokpiraka, imaginality

Not Voting

(4)

:

jilynne1991, Feysal, AurorusVox, Sir Hoppster

With 6 alive it takes

4

to lynch the knave.

Deadline is

July 16, 2011

, without possibility of extension.

jilynne1991

stands at

L-2

vezokpiraka and imaginality have been prodded.

Activity requirements are being tightened. From today on, if a player does not post within 48 hours, they will be prodded or replaced.

[imaginality]

Anyways...I think it's either you or Feysal is scum, so I think vezo is defintiely town.

This seems like a scumslip to me. The 'so' in this sentence implies jilynne is only thinking in terms of one other villain. That sounds like she's speaking from a scum perspective, knowing she's scum herself.

[AurorusVox]

I suppose Hoppster could be scum. I just doubt it.

If you doubt Hoppster is scum, and you think Feysal and I are not scum together, that means you only think there is ONE scum left.

Imaginality gets it. You're only looking for one other scum because you're factoring YOURSELF out of the equation.

[jilynne1991]

No, I'm not factoring myself in, that would be kind of stupid, don't you think? (Considering I'm town, that is.)

Well, ok, let's say I did think I was scum, then I wouldn't factor Hoppster into this.

[Wraith]

It appears that I must visit an eye doctor should I be soon be accosted by free time, as it appears I have completely overlooked a declaration of extended absence by vezokpiraka.

[Hoppster]

I've also correctly nailed jily as scum in [REDACTED - ONGOING], and boy, she sure was stupidly obvious scum. I'm not getting the same stupidly obvious scum-vibe from this game (having said that, while it's true her very late posts yesterday were fairly scum-tastic, it's really not the same stupidly obvious scum-vibe I've had from her before).

Now that I've seen Jilynne's mafia play in her other games, I agree that she is our best bet for mafia today.

So we have Hoppster saying her mafia play in other games is different to her play here, and Feysal saying the opposite.

Reconciliation of contrasting perspectives, plz.

It's, um, [REDACTED].


AVox is making a lot of sense. However:

Ok,

I so adamantly refused to believe Hoppster was scum, because he doesn't think I'm scum

.

is very plausible newb-town logic.


jily: You say you want to lynch AVox or Feysal.

We can only lynch one.

Who do you want to lynch more?

[AurorusVox]

Well, ok, let's say I did think I was scum, then I wouldn't factor Hoppster into this.

What does this mean? Sorry~

@Hoppster, Idunno, to me it looks like she's only looking for one scum because she's forgetting she needs someone to replace herself.
How is her professed townread of you different from a NewbScum calling people who read her as town, town?

[Hoppster]

How is her professed townread of you different from a NewbScum calling people who read her as town, town?

Don't think newbscum would admit it as the reason.

[jilynne1991]

LOL...AV, do you know how I play as scum? You should check out some of my games.

If I thought that I was scum, I wouldn't think about Hoppster. I would just look towards you or Feysal.

I'd like AV lynched first, since to be honest, I never really trusted him. I always though he could be scum, because he seemed like a really good player and wouldn't slip up, but he looked townie enough.

[AurorusVox]

If I thought that I was scum, I wouldn't think about Hoppster. I would just look towards you or Feysal.

My point is that you'd look to BOTH of us (i.e. "and", not "or"). Especially if you thought Hoppster was town. We'd HAVE to be scum together. Instead you've POE'd down to ONE scum. You said we can't be scum together, and everyone else you read as town. You're ONLY looking for one scum. This is why I think you've slipped.

---

Hoppster, you're leaving me in a quandry. If she's newbTown FMPOV that leaves Feysal + You (unless Vezok is flavour GF)

Hoppster + Vezok is more likely than Feysal + Vezok because Hoppster has been pushing the VezokFlavourGF angle for a LONG time and that could be inside info + white knighting Jily.
But Hoppster is such a townread that I don't want to believe it.

Screw you, Hoppster, for making me think you might be scum, screw you.

Need more thoughts from Feysal.

[jilynne1991]

No, but I'm 100% sure you guys aren't both scum.

Who in their right mind would think that you guys are both scum?

Yes, I've POE'd down to one scum, but in case you missed it, I also found someone that I thought was town, and decided that they had to be the other scum.

This is confusing. If you guys aren't both scum, then Hoppster has to be scum. UGH

The thing is, why would Lord_hur lie? Do scum have some kind of additional action?

What if there's a glitch somewhere?

I think that's a possibility, and now I'm seeing AV with vezo.

[Hoppster]

Hoppster, you're leaving me in a quandry. If she's newbTown FMPOV that leaves Feysal + You (unless Vezok is flavour GF)

Hoppster + Vezok is more likely than Feysal + Vezok because Hoppster has been pushing the VezokFlavourGF angle for a LONG time and that could be inside info + white knighting Jily.
But Hoppster is such a townread that I don't want to believe it.

Screw you, Hoppster, for making me think you might be scum, screw you.

Need more thoughts from Feysal.

Wait, so is this you saying jily could very well be newbtown?


I don't see why I'm the only one who is actively considering the flavour-GF, because:

a) Godfathers exist

b) It's a flavour cop, not a cop (so even then it wouldn't necessarily have to be a flavour-godfather role of sorts, just a scum role with non-incriminating flavour)


I'll have another look, but from what I can recall jily's post just above me contrasts sharply with her scum play in [REDACTED] where she pretty much ummed and ahhed through making any stances at all.

It does however seem vaguely similar to her town play in Source Code Mafia for reasons I can't remember off the top of my head.

[Feysal]

Sir Feysal; allow me to share with you my real meta, that I hid from you whilst we were battling against one another, and I were on the side of the knaves.

Save it. I don't recall anything good arising from use of self-meta. I have tried it, and even while I was being truthful to the best of my ability, I've been called a liar over differing interpretations.

I find your statement of engaging in town-versus-town regularly disturbing though. If you're aware of this tendency, why not try to correct it? Instead, in your fight with Lord Hur this game, I seem to recall you defending your mafia catching prowess. Lord Hur insisted that you vote town considerably more often than anti-town when you're town, a sentiment you apparently agree with... and yet you found Lord Hur suspicious for his belief. How does this work?

I have, however, brought attention to Jily when none was required. Ask yourself if, in TGtN, I brought undue pressure onto Krypt/Set, or whether I just intensified already-existing pressure?

I don't think it was necessary at all for you to maintain pressure on kryptinen, or to bus Setael. That was why I thought those actions made you town, yet now I know better. And for all I know, you could be concerned about being caught by process of elimination, leading you to seek town credit from pushing for your partner's execution, enabling you to survive to win for your team. (I've tried this once, in an off-site game which resulted in my loss as mafia, when my entire team was caught in a single turn by the most ridiculously overpowered mechanic I've ever witnessed.)

It is my understanding, admittedly from another site, that if the rapscallions equal the gentlemen in number, the game does not yet end - they are forced to "no lynch" and shoot at night to achieve greater numbers. Is that incorrect?

It is incorrect, and it would only take basic logic to see why. If the mafia at any point constitute half of the town, it means they control the vote, and it is impossible to lynch them. Therefore the outcome of any such situation is a foregone conclusion, and a game where that happens, or it happening becomes unavoidable, ends immediately in a mafia victory.

Unless... you're not suggesting that there could be a town traitor in the game? That way I guess there could be three mafia remaining, and the game would not end because the mafia could not vote as a group.

So we have Hoppster saying her mafia play in other games is different to her play here, and Feysal saying the opposite.

Reconciliation of contrasting perspectives, plz.

I've never played with Jilynne before, and I am in no position to compare her town and mafia metas. I went looking for her past games to see if there really were other games with mafia teams of two people, and while I was at it, I had a look at her play in some of those games. I did no extensive reads of those games, but even a cursory glance revealed that she was loquacious regardless of her alignment, and was unashamed to post even when caught as mafia. I'd believed her town because I expected newbie mafia to be more subdued and lurky, but she is clearly an exception to that tell, so I dropped my town read of her.

I'll have another look, but from what I can recall Jily's post just above me contrasts sharply with her scum play in [REDACTED] where she pretty much ummed and ahhed through making any stances at all.

Ummed and ahhed? That sounds a lot like her play here, I'd say. She has given stances yes, only to abandon them the next moment. I would describe her play as indecisive, especially since the spotlight was aimed at her.

[AurorusVox]

Wait, so is this you saying jily could very well be newbtown?

This is me considering all possibilities and judging which is the most likely. JilyScum is more likely that HoppsterScum so I lean on JilyScum rather than a team with HoppsterScum in it. However, your constant affirmation of her being town (and worryingly, your previous crusade with Vezok as scum), is making me reconsider.

I don't see why I'm the only one who is actively considering the flavour-GF

You've done more than consider though, you've been pushing it quite a lot. At least that's the impression I get.

---

Save it. I don't recall anything good arising from use of self-meta. I have tried it, and even while I was being truthful to the best of my ability, I've been called a liar over differing interpretations.

Contradiction Discovered:
In TGtN you questioned WHY I wasn't using my previous scum meta to defend myself against Nacho. Why did you want me to use it then (when you were town) but don't want me to use it now (when I am town)?

I find your statement of engaging in town-versus-town regularly disturbing though. If you're aware of this tendency, why not try to correct it? Instead, in your fight with Lord Hur this game, I seem to recall you defending your mafia catching prowess. Lord Hur insisted that you vote town considerably more often than anti-town when you're town, a sentiment you apparently agree with... and yet you found Lord Hur suspicious for his belief. How does this work?

Eh? I tunnel on town, that doesn't mean lord_hur was right that I only ever lynch town and that this is a scumtell against me. Lord_hur's point was in part to call me scum whilst showing that I never find scum, whereas in fact the opposite is true; not finding scum is a towntell for me (imo). And it is something I'm trying to work on. Do you think I'm content with having a poor scumhunting town game? :\

I don't think it was necessary at all for you to maintain pressure on kryptinen, or to bus Setael. That was why I thought those actions made you town, yet now I know better. And for all I know, you could be concerned about being caught by process of elimination, leading you to seek town credit from pushing for your partner's execution, enabling you to survive to win for your team. (I've tried this once, in an off-site game which resulted in my loss as mafia, when my entire team was caught in a single turn by the most ridiculously overpowered mechanic I've ever witnessed.)

After this game we should both agree to drop meta on each other entirely. In part because I don't have the will to find a meta on you, and in part because even when I find scum (Jily) it'll just make me scummier than if I'd flopped around saying nothing

I disagree btw. I think I let the pressure on Krypt slide (see my shift to Powerrox/Quar D1, my Powerrox case D2, and my Regfan case D3), and I sided for a Seacore lynch before Setael's whilst I could. If it's a Jily-AV scumteam, there's no reason I couldn't have pushed you as the lynch over Jily today since I have proclaimed to read you both as scum, and Hoppster is here defending Jily town. Ask yourself, if you're town, why am I not doing to you what I did to Regfan on D3? The answer is simple: I'm not scum this time.

It is incorrect, and it would only take basic logic to see why. If the mafia at any point constitute half of the town, it means they control the vote, and it is impossible to lynch them. Therefore the outcome of any such situation is a foregone conclusion, and a game where that happens, or it happening becomes unavoidable, ends immediately in a mafia victory.

Fair enough. I thought they actually had to go through to process of voting "No Lynch" to clinch the victory.

Unless... you're not suggesting that there could be a town traitor in the game? That way I guess there could be three mafia remaining, and the game would not end because the mafia could not vote as a group.

I'm not suggesting that. I was merely mistaken about how 3:3 would have worked.

I've never played with Jilynne before, and I am in no position to compare her town and mafia metas. I went looking for her past games to see if there really were other games with mafia teams of two people, and while I was at it, I had a look at her play in some of those games. I did no extensive reads of those games, but even a cursory glance revealed that she was loquacious regardless of her alignment, and was unashamed to post even when caught as mafia. I'd believed her town because I expected newbie mafia to be more subdued and lurky, but she is clearly an exception to that tell, so I dropped my town read of her.

I like this. Your read of Jily as scum from previous games is more convincing than Hoppster's, and I like your point about Jily's indecisiveness in this game. The irony if this itself is a TvT >_>

[imaginality]

I'm here but don't have more to add at the moment really. I still think jilynne is our best shot of lynching scum. I feel Hoppster scum is unlikely if jilynne's town.

In fact, if jilynne is town then any two-scum pairing of {Hoppster, AurorusVox, Feysal} have had plenty of opportunity to force the lynch through in the last little while. So if jilynne's town, I think vezok must be one of the two scum. Put that way - jilynne or vezok? - I think jilynne is pretty clearly the more likely scum of the two.

[AurorusVox]

^Why did I ever doubt you were town?

{Feysal-Hoppster} is off the table then. This makes me immensely happy.

Jily-Feysal:

Feysal started to express concerns about Jily from near the deadline yesterday. It could be a soft bus as TT was very close to a lynch, but he's kept at it today. He's been using meta to paint her scummy when he could have just hopped on Hoppster's townMeta info, which gets him some townpoints. He has also attempted to turn the spotlight on me; if he was scum with Jily this could be an attempt to swerve the lynch away from her BUT he hasn't really pushed his case with the intent of voting me

instead

of Jily, which gets him significantly less scumpoints. However, he could be doing this to chain lynches; even if we lynch correctly today, a mislynch tomorrow secures scum the win. It's very odd that Jily thinks Feysal and I can't be scum together, too. Almost as though she KNOWS one of us is scum (Feysal) and wanted to appear right if/when we both flip...

Jily-Hoppster:

Hoppster has been a staunch defender of JilyTown, which could be an explicit attempt to save his buddy. But its risky, and a very obvious ploy. What concerns me is the difference between him and Feysal; I'll read over Jily's games myself and see who is telling a closer truth. I also think his push against Vezok could be an attempt to open another mislynch avenue; Jily's refusal to read Hoppster as scum could be a buddy trying to not show a scumread on Hoppster. I also shy away from his newbTowntells a little, because she's had plenty of nights where she can have been offered tips, and is playing in Newbies as an SE, so she's obviously got a few games under her belt.

Vezok-Hoppster:

If Vezok is scum, I'd point to Hoppster as his buddy. Hoppster would then have been White Knighting Jily (he seems sure she's town, and could be twisting meta to suit him [check this]), and soft-bussing Vezok. If Vezok was lynched, Hoppster would gain enormous towncred for being the only person to really push Vezok, and if Hoppster flipped, Vezok would look better by comparison. Vezok plays scummy all the time so I don't know how to judge him beyond the non-incriminating flavour report. To be honest, with a {Miller + SK + Bodyguard} in the setup, I'm going to guess that the flavour lord_hur searched for was whether or not the other player had the ability to kill (or in the case of the miller, seemed to have...), i.e. he'd have turned up suspicious results on the Miller, SK, and possibly the BG, as well as the scum. GF is possible, but...I think the cop is already facing enough screwing.

Vezok-Feysal:

This has all the poor parts of the above case with none of the real benefits. Unlikely pairing.

Jily-Vezok:

I would be amazed if Vezok was a scum GF bussing Jily. Mentioned mostly just so the whole set is here.

Jily-Imaginality:

Only scumpairing for Imaginality, and not very likely at all. He's been very pro-town since becoming cleared, and is helping to lead the charge against Jily. If they're scum together then well played, sir and madam.

[jilynne1991]

Well, I just started mafia like 1 1/2 months ago, but I've replaced into at least 9 or 10 between this and another forum and finished 3 or 4.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with my logic about Hoppster, he doesn't need me to think he's town, and he's the only one who thinks I might be town, so I think that if he really was scum, he would just try to get me lynched.