[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #3550 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:09 am

Post by mykonian »

Magister Ludi wrote:Don't the town essentially control the nightkill, though? One townie will claim doctor on day one. MAfia don't know if its real or not, but can't take the chance it isn't because if it is the real doc they can't kill anyone else. Next day, same thing. If the doctor doesn't die in the night, you know the person claiming was mafia, lynch away!

I guess the mafia could try and shoot elsewhere, but they would have to balance this out with the possibility the actual doctor did claim, and they would be wasting a night.


This "breaking stragegy leans on two things which are doubtful

Mafia has to act in a particular way to make it work (shoot the claimant)
This breaking strategy only works as long as the real doc doesn't claim.

And these work against each other. Town can 100% break the first day, and then lose their doc n2. Which is minimal return for a Pr (and only unique role). So yeah, I wouldn't worry about this.
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Post Post #3551 (ISO) » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:23 pm

Post by eaglgenes101 »

I call this 2^4.
2 mafia special (each randomly chosen to be roleblocker or role cop)
3 townies
2 town special (each randomly chosen to be cop or doctor)
Waiting for the OK to run the game, get more help, and be accepted. I'm still a newb, so please be patient.
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Post Post #3552 (ISO) » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:41 am

Post by yabbaguy »

That's an intriguing setup, but in Bird 7P (goon/goon cop/doc/3 town) and C9 (goon/goon cop?/doc?/3-5 town), Maf have less power, and rightfully so. One alternative - 1 maf PR at most, and have it be roleblocker/r-cop/investigate-immune godfather/goon in order to retain the name. It's not really four 1/2 chances to generate the setup, but it does provide 2^4 possible setups - and I can appreciate the jab at 2of4. :)

Alternative - what if you said that the ability to use the Mafia's factional kill ability and ability to use their own power is mutually exclusive (e.g. roleblocker blocks as normal, but rolecop sacrifices his chance at being cop to make the factional kill)? On a maf lynch should it occur, Town suddenly takes the power into their hands as Mafia aren't able to both use a power AND kill. Swingier, but fairer game.
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Post Post #3553 (ISO) » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:15 am

Post by Timeater »

coming from heroes of newerth forum if anyone plays:

this is his setup:

YawningAngel wrote:Introduction
Werewolf is a game of deception.

Every person is assigned a role at the start of the game. You are randomly sided with either the Legion or the Hellbourne. During the night, the Hellbourne players secretly kill one person. During the day, the Legion players must figure out who is the Hellbourne and bring them to justice! You will play as either a Legion Hero or a Hellbourne Hero. Your goal is to converse with other players and advance toward your own goals. Your skills in persuasion and lying will determine the course of the game.

Overview
The citizens of a small Legion village one morning wake up to discover that there are Hellbourne in their town! If something is not done, the entire village population will be infested and killed!
Teams
There are two teams, Legion and Hellbourne.

On the Hellbourne side there are Hellbourne heroes. They all know each other, and may communicate with each other at night. They win if at any time they outnumber or are equal in number to the Legion.

On the Legion side you have the Legion heroes. The Legion win by eliminating all the Hellbourne players.
Turn Structure
The game alternates between two phases, a Day phase and a Night phase, starting on Day 1.

Day Phase: During the day, the village gets together to discuss and decide who might be a Hellbourne! Lynches are determined by Votes. Everyone votes who they think is an imp or warlock (votes may be changed at any time during the day). You may also vote to "No Lynch" if the town wishes to not lynch anybody. A voting post can be as simple as "I vote ______," and must be in the color lime. This is to make it clear to me that you want to vote that person. If someone gets a majority of the votes ( n / 2 + 1 ), they are lynched, and the Night phase begins. All players have the privilege of voting unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Night Phase: During the night phase, the Hellbourne decide who they are going to eat! They are allowed to communicate privately outside the main thread to make this decision, they may only do this during the night time. Legion heroes also make actions during the night.

Possible Roles
Roles are randomly assigned via a random number generator once enough players have signed up and the game is ready to begin.

Legion
Victory: All Hellbourne are eliminated
Defeat: Legion are outnumbered by or equal in number to the Hellbourne during the day

The Random Legion Hero Not Mentioned Below - Anyone who is a Legion Hero not mentioned below is trying to lynch the Hellbourne during the day, and has no action at night. They win if all the Hellbourne are eliminated.

Rampage - During the night, Rampage has the ability to declare that he is "CHARGING ****ING <PLAYERNAME>", revealing that player's role. At the end of the day that player will die unless Rampage is lynched. You may lie about being Rampage, but you may not claim to use his special ability unless you are actually Rampage.

Armadon - Only Armadon can claim to be Armadon. Anyone else claiming to be Armadon will be modkilled.

Chipper - Every night Chippier can fire Rockets at up to three targets. Players who are hit by a rocket are alerted of this fact.

Empath - Every night Empath can cast As One on a player. Any night actions targeted at Empath will instead target that player.

Nomad the Student Lawyer - Every day Nomad the Student Lawyer has the ability to Object to a player's vote. The player's vote must be changed as Nomad the Student Lawyer desires and may not be changed by that player during that day. You may lie about being Nomad, but you may not claim to use his special ability unless you are actually Nomad.

Swiftblade - Twice per game, Swiftblade can chase the slowest (i.e. least active, as measured in posts on the day before) player during the night and use his spin on them, killing them.

Blacksmith - If lynched, the Blacksmith has the ability to cast Fireball on a target. The target will be killed instantly along with the Blacksmith. If the Hellbourne are eliminated while Blacksmith is alive, the Legion loses.

Hellbourne
Victory: Legion are outnumbered by or Equal in number to the Hellbourne during the day.
Defeat: All Hellbourne are eliminated

All Hellbourne Heroes Not Mentioned Below - Hellbourne talk and vote during the day just like Legion. At night they, along with any Hellbourne heroes, collectively choose or vote on a victim by posting in the quicktopic thread they will receive a link to during the Night.

Torturer - Once per game, the devourer can Torture somebody. That player must post only as directed by Torturer during the following day. Torturer can PM his victim with suitable posts, but may not have them do anything that would result in their being modkilled.

Succubus - Once during the night, Succubus has the ability to Mesmerise somebody. The target will change allegiance and join the Hellbourne.

Other Rules
No talking when dead. A post with some sort of funny comment is allowed, however no strategy content should be included; "I knew I had it coming" is okay but "David and Snorlax are clearly hellbourne, look into their voting history" is not. Dead imp are dead in imp chat as well.
They may not give any further strategy input. If you do post then you must colour it in Deep Sky Blue

No posting screenshots of your role in PMs, this is for obvious reasons.

As Hellborne, there are absolutely no rules on what you can post (while alive). Anything said by the Hellbourne should always be interpreted as possibly false, and as such any fake claims or betrayals can just as well be lies and are part of the game.

This game is not a speed game. Day will take as long as needed to get a vote, so you can discuss and change your mind. Once a reasonable time has passed, and a majority vote has been cast a lynching will take place and night will begin. However I will be prodding anybody who goes inactive for over 1 days and will kick if appropriate.

This is a game of deception. Anything said by others should be analyzed and assessed as you see fit. Blindly trusting people as the Legion is unwise and will likely see to your demise.
Dealing With Inactives
Due to the fact that this game requires an active group of players I have added a few new rules to ensure that players who aren't active enough are aptly replaced.
Night will last for no more than 2 days (48 hours). All players must send me a PM every night declaring their night action. Saplings (who are the only players with no night role) must send me a message declaring their activity. If you haven't sent me a night role by the end of the night you will be replaced, and I will make your night role decision for your role.
Day will last as long as it needs to, however anybody who hasn't posted anything in this thread for days (24 hours) will be prodded, if they don't respond to the prod within the next 24 hours they will be replaced.
Once we have an acceptable amount of players I will contact players on their roles. All players must reply telling me "I'm ready" within 24 hours of receiving your role. Anybody who fails to reply will be replaced before the game starts.
Additional Notes

The setup type is open. Which roles are in the game is publicly available information

The game will take place in a separate thread and start when I say it does.


YawningAngel wrote:PR format I'm considering is Rampage/Empath/Chipper/Blacksmith/Swiftblade, 10 vanilla, 1 Succubus and 3 vanilla scum


There you go Yawning :cop:
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Post Post #3554 (ISO) » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:24 pm

Post by Magister Ludi »

Holy cow, a four man recruiting mafia group? This is unbalanced.

Chipper does nothing.
Empath is a hider with no death.
Blacksmith is a vengeful townie that cause TOWN TO LOSE if mafia die with him alive?
Swiftblade, nerfed vig.
Rampage, nerfed cop, that either kills himself or target?

All I can say is, if you don't want some help balancing this, I sure hope I would be mafia.
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Post Post #3555 (ISO) » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by YawningAngel »

Succubus only works once, but even with that, should I cut one of the Maf? I think I'll probably also remove the stupid part of Blacksmith's role.
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Post Post #3556 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:12 am

Post by Shadowmod »

I had the idea for something very plain and simple:
R
G
B
-Mafia

1
Red
mafia goon

1
Green
mafia goon

1
Blue
mafia goon

4
Red
townies

4
Green
townies

4
Blue
townies
Last edited by Shadowmod on Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Post #3557 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:46 am

Post by Shadowmod »

Hoopla wrote:2x Mafia Goons
1x Reverse Doctor
7x Townies


I like the basic idea very much.
How about making it a science fiction theme/flavour and calling the doc a shield generator or something similar?

As a possible variation you could add more than one of them, but they only offer 1/n chance to block a kill with n people targeting them.
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Post Post #3558 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:11 am

Post by Crazy »

Shadow, what do the colors mean in your RGB game?
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Post Post #3559 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:18 am

Post by Shadow Dancer »

They essentially mean nothing. It's essentially a vanilla/mountainious game.
The colours allow town to get confirmed townies out of every scum lynch.
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Post Post #3560 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:31 pm

Post by Magister Ludi »

So its a 3 v 12 (which isn't that bad by itself), but each scum lynch clears up to four townies?

Thats... interesting. I was thinking about lowering the number of townies, but I don't know if that makes it more mafia sided or plain balanced.

The thing is, if you lynch a mafia day one or two or three, town may be on the way to auto winning. Day one, everyone town claims. Lynch someone. same on day 2 and three. If a mafia is ever hit, The mafia would be forced to night killed through the rest of the confirmed townies, while the town just speed lynches another color, if they hit mafia within that next color before mafia are done with first (or potentially after) its game over.
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Post Post #3561 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:04 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Two or Three?


1x Mafia Goon
+ 1x Mafia Goon OR 2x Mafia Lovers

7/8x Townies
1x Doctor

~~

Pregame, one player is chosen to be a Mafia Goon. They then either chose to get a Mafia Goon partner or two Mafia Lovers. The additional mafia member(s) are then chosen randomly.

If two Lovers are chosen, the setup is 3:8. If another Goon is chosen, the setup is 2:9.
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Post Post #3562 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:31 pm

Post by Shadowmod »

@Ludi: Yes, statisically there is a 4% chance for town to win after just 2 days by lynching correctly twice (as compared to 3:12 mountainious offering 0.3% for a town win after 3 days).
The aim of the setup is to make correct scum lynches more rewarding for town.
Balance is about town 40%:scum 60% win percentage with day 1 fullclaim, random lynches and optimal scum play.
However, D1 claim is not the optimal strategy for town, so the effective (theoretical) balance should be even better.
Last edited by Shadowmod on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #3563 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:31 pm

Post by Shadowmod »

Hoopla wrote:
Two or Three?


1x Mafia Goon
+ 1x Mafia Goon OR 2x Mafia Lovers

7/8x Townies
1x Doctor

~~

Pregame, one player is chosen to be a Mafia Goon. They then either chose to get a Mafia Goon partner or two Mafia Lovers. The additional mafia member(s) are then chosen randomly.

If two Lovers are chosen, the setup is 3:8. If another Goon is chosen, the setup is 2:9.


If there's a doc in there make it 12 players.
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Post Post #3564 (ISO) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:52 pm

Post by Hoopla »

I think you might be right, but not because of the Doctor itself. In the current incarnation, the Lovers setup allows one less mislynch for town (unless the Doc makes a save), which although there is increased chance of town finding one of their two required lynches, it probably isn't worth one less mislynch. A 12p game enables the same amount of mislynches either way, but makes the Doc save earn an extra lynch in the 2:10 version, as opposed to the 3:9 version, which is probably the setup that needs that benefit more.

I'm not sure which setup I'd pick as the first goon. Having two teammates gives greater control of the lynch, but also increases the chances of my partner being lynched as there is two targets for town to find as opposed to one.
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Post Post #3565 (ISO) » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:42 am

Post by Shadowmod »

I liked the reverse doctor idea much better, please work on that one, Hoopla.
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Post Post #3566 (ISO) » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:11 am

Post by ConSpiracy »

Shadowmod wrote:I liked the reverse doctor idea much better, please work on that one, Hoopla.

It is indeed a wonderful setup idea.
I'd like to play it.
Though calling it a lazy doc (patients have to go to him) is a far better name than reverse doc.
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Post Post #3567 (ISO) » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:20 am

Post by Vi »

"Reflexive Doctor"
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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Post Post #3568 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:51 pm

Post by Andrius »

Hoopla wrote:I'm not sure which setup I'd pick as the first goon. Having two teammates gives greater control of the lynch, but also increases the chances of my partner being lynched as there is two targets for town to find as opposed to one.


I really like this idea/mechanic/whatsitcalled.

Because it gives the player more power, and no one knows a player better than the one in the mirror.
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Post Post #3569 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:52 pm

Post by DonJosh »

I have an idea for yet another Friends and Enemies Variation:

(More Than) Friends and Enemies and Enemies

2 Mafia Goons
2 Werewolves
2 Lovers
6 Townies

I was also tossing around an idea for "(More Than) Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy" with a Back-up Lover, so the widowed Lover doesn't commit suicide until the Lover and the Back-up are killed.
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Post Post #3570 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:26 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

That's not close to being balanced.
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Post Post #3571 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:28 pm

Post by Tragedy »

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:That's not close to being balanced.


This.

Also, Lovers leaves off Confirmed towns into pieces already.
I blame you for this.
For I have been awaiting for another heart pounding segment of
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Post Post #3572 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:33 pm

Post by DonJosh »

Tragedy wrote:
Also, Lovers leaves off Confirmed towns into pieces already.


Oh ya. Oops. Back to the drawing board... :/
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Post Post #3573 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:35 pm

Post by DonJosh »

I'm working on an analysis-based Setup based on Roleblockers. So far the setup is:
1 Godfather: Sends in Night Kills
1 Mafia Goon: Sends in Night Kills if Godfather is killed
1 Mafia Roleblocker [Subject to Change]
9 Town Roleblockers

I'm currently working on developing the setup more, and I've run a few random tests.
I know that this setup is not perfect.
I have not developed it at all.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
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Post Post #3574 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:50 pm

Post by Max »

How do you return results for a roleblocker? I.e.
What order are the roleblocks resolved?
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