Mini 1180: Game Over

[Twistedspoon]

I feel sorry for ald having made a huge wall just to be quickhammered :3

anyways, Until next time compadré. Maybe we can hydra sometimes too.
~TS

[mastin2]

/Tempting fate. (Getting into a Wall War is ALWAYS tempting fate. I strongly advise against it in my Guide To Playing Well, but, well...based on what I'm seeing, Ald's actually CONVINCING people, meaning I need to make sure he doesn't.)

Spoiler: Wall

However, I fail to see how there is any scum motivation to this petty inconsistency.

And is there any town motive for the inconsistency, either?

...No?

Yeah, don't bring Motive into a place it doesn't belong. This is flat-out a scum contradiction, which you're trying to deflect off of you.

Ironhead... doesn't seem to understand the case against him.

This IS a contradiction with Ald's suspicion cast on Ironhead. There's no way around that. He doesn't see the case agaisnt Iron...and yet, throws suspicion towards Iron, anyway?

Ald's failure to address this also confirms he's scum.

CC and jily are town for disinterest in the game -- but I'm not? Wouldn't it make sense if I was a VT too?

1: But you didn't show disinterest in the game.

I don't know if anyone else is, but I am personally disgusted with my play up to now.

That's not what disinterested town say.

2: Disinterest is also significantly higher for newer join dates. I, for one, was among those who thought the VT role was boring when I was a newb. (Mainly, due to me not getting it for, like, four or five games. ) Now? VT's my favorite role of all time. (Yes, really.) The longer you play, the more you learn to enjoy that role. I very frequently note disinterest as a town-tell from people with 2010-2011 joindates. I NEVER note disinterest as a town-tell for someone with, say, a 2007 joindate.

Also, is this supposed to be a scum tell?

Since when

isn't

hypocrisy a scumtell?

I said it that way because that seems like the sort of dry humor, vaguely funny way of responding to what you said. It's amusing because of it's blunt response to something that doesn't usually get that kind of response (how often is "if that makes sense" replied to with "no, it doesn't"?).

Alright. To paraphrase what you're saying,
"It's. A. JOKE."

...Yeah, you're not getting away with writing it off as a joke, Ald. (Heh. I used to believe writing off an earlier post as a joke to be a scumtell a-la-EmpTyger--to some extent, I still do.) There was no town reason to give that sort of humor. Town simply doesn't think that way. Scum give that type of humor all the time, though.

I don't even know where you're getting this weird VC analysis from. How about you examine the reasons people were doing what they were doing at the time instead of just looking at some broad outline and making poor presumptions from it?

Admittedly, my VCA in the case is a measure of Interaction, rather than Motive or Tone. But quite frankly, measuring Motive and Tone for the votes would be a waste of time, because it wouldn't change the conclusion. I did the reasoning in my head for the voters' motives and tried to remember the tone of the votes off the top of my head, when I did the VCA. And my conclusion remained the same.

For God's sake, I've said about a million times that the wagon at the time was basically devoid of reasoning. If you address nothing else in this post, address this. Because with the information I was given at the time I feel I made the right call. It's not some damning connection to WK.

Right, like the wagon on you is basically devoid of reasoning.
WK was scum. I was right. The people on the wagon, were right, and you called it "devoid of reasoning". Despite it having been right.
You're scum. I'm right. The people on the wagon, are right. And you've been calling it essentially reasonless. But despite the "reasonlessness", it's right. (And due note that I put quotation marks for a reason.)

Oooh, it couldn't be that I am a town player concerned about the activity of the game. Couldn't possibly be that.

Correct.

It wasn't that SP was posting too much. It's that a bunch of other people were posting too little. SP was there for comparison. You've severely misread the post.

Explain how. I drew a rather clear connection from that. I think you're once more trying to backtrack.

Logic time. Just because I said "I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon"

doesn't mean that I don't suspect people on the wagon

. And it really doesn't mean I'm calling those people town. What it does mean is that DY was putting words in my mouth and I was pointing that out.

You're so freakin' full of backtracking you can't even keep your story straight. Now you're implying that you DID suspect people on the wagon.

I obviously have changed my mind.

But there was nothing to have sparked this change in mind. There was nothing which either of us has done which would have changed your perspective. It's blatant scum contradicion.

Town players drop scum tells too, and I posted those just in case they weren't town.

...I have no words.
No effing words.
For.
Just.
How.
Bad.
This.
Is.

I'm literally at a loss of words for just how scummy that is, am stunned that Ald actually said something that stupid, that...blatant.

I wasn't trying to discredit them. A player drops a scum tell or two and I note it and I'm trying to discredit them?

Twisting my words. I said he was either trying to cast suspicion, OR trying to discredit them. Not both at the same time.

Hey, I just thought it through. I give good insight and somehow that's inside knowledge?

Yes. If you had just said, "jily would have been blocked regardless of her target's alignment", that'd have been null. I said as much. The thought process you used to explain it REEKS of inside knowledge, reeks of being the mind-set of a scum player who thought it through last night and is almost copy-pasting from the Mafia QT. It wasn't the insight which was the problem. It was the thought process used to post said insight. Mindset is one of the strongest sub-sets of Motive.

I meant look at in terms of "I need to iso these people."

This does not answer the issue.

I wouldn't know if jily had used her shot or not unless I was a tracker, watcher, or jily.

Or, you're the freakin' scum RoleBlocker and KNOW Jily was blocked.

Additionally, the wording of this:

I wouldn't know if jily had used her shot or not unless I was a tracker, watcher, or jily.

I think that it is no big assumption to think that jily had used her shot. And if it hadn't gone through, then it's also no big assumption to think that a roleblocker is afoot.

...Implies that Ald thinks (or KNOWS) that Jily is town and therefore not lying, whereas...

Also, jily is scummy. If she isn't then address what I've said against her.

THIS reaffirms that Ald thinks Jily is scum. (No, wait, worse. Ald thinks Jily is scum

my

. That's ten times worse, because it leaves him the chance to back out at any time by saying, "scummy, but not scum".)

Speaking of which. Ald's suspects have been from what I see, Captain, Alex, and Jily.

Easy mislynch targets for the lose!

Err, DY has done basically the same thing and you obviously think that lines like mine did come from town.

Different subjects. I agreed with you on a point about the Night. I agreed with Yoshi on a suspect. The two are COMPLETELY different things to agree with.

You trying to tie these entirely different things together makes you even more scum.

No. Not in this post.

But you HAVE been trying to get Alex lynched!

BTW, since alex isn't happening

(Speaking of that, Ald's wording implies he knows Alex is town already.)

Shrug. Is this scummy?

YES.

Since when ISN'T degrading the play of another scummy?

And since you just admitted to doing it (you didn't deny it--you asked what was wrong with it), you're scum.

Second of all, I was holding my vote off so that I could do those isos and make a more informed, better vote.

Dude. YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VOTE ANY TIME BEFORE A LYNCH!
The ONLY reason to be afraid of making a poor, less-informed vote, is that you're scum who fears they'll have to backtrack out of the vote later.

It sounds like you only saw the towniness after you came to the conclusion that DY was town. Maybe you should try reading my posts with the idea that I'm town and see what comes up.

I did. I came up with...well, nothing. I saw nothing positive in a town-Ald. I saw nothing which looked like I could praise you for. I had to fight, hard, to make a universe where Ald was town exist. And it collapsed the second I stopped trying.

You're scum. You're overdefensive, opportunistic, lurky, walling, anti-town scum. (I meant it when I said, I really see the old scum-Mastin when I look into Ald.)

My defense is rather condemning?

Yes. You dig your hole deeper every time you post. Even if Captain is mislynched today, you're not going to escape forever, Ald. You might've manipulated a few people into thinking you're not scum, but when Captain flips town, their viewpoint will collapse. They will realize, "...Maybe Mastin wasn't so Mad afterall." They'll look at you, and look at me, and realize, I was right and they will be ashamed that they were fooled by your hollow see-through defense.

You know, Occam's Razor applies when one possibility requires less assumptions/the assumptions are fairly like to be true.

It's not less assumptions. It's simpler assumptions. Compare mine to yours.

Lots of normals?

Exclusively normals. And limited-shot vigs are incredibly common. While we didn't know it to be the case, you can look at Desert Mafia for an example--the Delayed Action Vig was two-shot. One instance of many. You can also look at Oldy Mafia, which had a limited-shot vig. The role is on the uprising, and is incredibly common.

If so, what makes you think that you haven't just encountered a large number of 1-shot vigs or something?

Occam's Razor. Which is more likely?
That I've seen an abnormally large number of 1-shot vigs, that I've seen lots of people favoring their usage all across the site and that it never actually gets put into practice?
...Or that they actually are on the rise and becoming incredibly common?

Well, of course he will if I flip scum. Not sure what you're getting at here.

Scumslip.

Redacted, vote counted. - Mod

Don't think you needed to do this--I've made my opinion in-thread pretty clear about this.

[Twistedspoon]

you're arguing with a lynched man here Mastin

[mastin2]

I noticed only after I posted.

[mastin2]

Oh, and for the record?

It's either me or him, and if it's not me, it's him.

This is going to make me super scummy tomorrow. Sorry Mastin.

This screams town.

Additionally,

At this point I think it is safe to say that Secret Project is scum.

This is a town-slip, since if TWIE's slot was mafia, they'd have access to a scum QT, where they'd mention who was killed. Xv failed to notice that Secret was death, therefore xvart cannot be mafia who killed them.

So, don't mislynch these two.

Ever.

They're both town.

[Twistedspoon]

so if Ald flips town, who are our mafiosi Mastin?

[Twistedspoon]

the good thing is I think scum may be running out of myslynches. I expect scum to try and push those you just mentioned above tommorow, Mastin (assuming you aren't scum :s)

[mastin2]

Also, considering the Mod's in the same time-zone I am (California is Pacific, as is Oregon [where I am right now] and Washington [my home], and it's 1 AM here), unless Substrike is an insomniac, I'll probably have time to show you why the others are mislynches, too.

Gerhard/Captain, TWIE/xv, Elsa, Jily/replacement, Alex.

All five have had numerous attempted and (justifiably so!) failed wagons on 'em. I need to make sure you never mislych them.

[Twistedspoon]

you don't think Iron is a myslynch?

[mastin2]

so if Ald flips town, who are our mafiosi Mastin?

I quite frankly can't tell at the moment, because I quite frankly can't see Ald as scum.

Only when the Mod comes in and tells me, "Mastin, you were wrong" will I be able to re-evaluate the thread with a fresh perspective on the game.

I doubt it'll change my opinions on almost all of the five names, though. They all have numerous town-tells.

The scum are outside those five.

[Twistedspoon]

so if Ald flips town, who are our mafiosi Mastin?

I quite frankly can't tell at the moment, because I quite frankly can't see Ald as scum.

do you mean can't see ald as town?

[mastin2]

you don't think Iron is a myslynch?

Iron's wagon never built up steam.

For good reason.

All of the five names I mentioned, however, have had serious threatening bandwagons on them.

If memory serves, Iron never got more than three votes, never got closer than L-4.

The rest have gotten AT LEAST to L-3, if not L-2 or L-1. (And Elsa/Alex were tied for vig votes, which itself was a wagon of sorts, with five on each, effectively L-2 for both of them.)

[mastin2]

so if Ald flips town, who are our mafiosi Mastin?

I quite frankly can't tell at the moment, because I quite frankly can't see Ald as scum.

do you mean can't see ald as town?

...Yeah, pretty obvious I meant I can't see Ald as town. (I walled a dead guy! Of COURSE I think he's scum! )

[Twistedspoon]

lol

okay, I think we're on the same page now

[mastin2]

First off, I pointed out why I believe this was a townslip. I know, everyone (including alex ) disagrees with it, but I still hold it was valid.

This does not look faked, either, meaning Alex was not aware that WormyKrew was scum.

There's also this:
As Ironhead was to WormyKrew,
Alex is to Alduskkel.

In other words, Alex's interactions with Ald look the same way as Ironhead's with WormyKrew. And vice-versa, Ald's with Alex are a dead-ringer for WormyKrew's with Ironhead. (This also applies to their counter-wagons. TWIE is pretty much identical to Captain, when you look at them. The play overall is a perfect match.)

There's probably more I could find, but I'm kinda lazy. Alex has been showing consistent scumhunting. He has extremely favorable interactions. His motive seems consistently town. His biggest thing in his favor is tone, which is consistently town. He has lots of town-tells, and overall is a pretty town player.

[mastin2]

I've multiple times defended Elsa and Jily--I'll see about pulling out the notes from my ISO. I'll then ISO both of them to augment it.

[Soben]

Extremely frustrated and disappointed with that hammer, we needed as much time as possible for Xvart to post his catch up thoughts and reads before this went to night-phase though I still believe there's a decent chance Ald will flip scum (Scumhunter doesn't seem to think so anymore though).

Heading on vacation in a few minutes in which I'll be up coast for a few days though I'll have some form of internet access there and if the threads still open I'll have the remainder of my thoughts posted here before night phase.

Mastin, if at the end of this game it's found out to be one or more scum in the names that you listed which I believe is going to be the case and it's likely to be Elsa or TWIE I expect you not only to claim complete responsibility for the loss but also to never join a game with me in future again. The 'townslip' that you attempted to point out with Xvart is something I myself considered however the fact that he never mentioned it again even though Ironhead and other players hinted towards Secret Project being dead and Secret Project not being included in the vote count today leads it towards being forced and faked.

[mastin2]

No, Soben. You don't fake that kind of thing as scum.

It.
Just.
Doesn't.
Happen.

TWIE got to L-1, a quickwagon.
Captain got close to a lynch, as a quickwagon.

The two of them are both town, because neither quickwagon was good, compared to their counter-wagons, on the slowly-building scumwagons, WormyKrew and Alduskkel.

And Elsa's town for other reasons.

Really, this game was decided long ago. The outcome was sealed from the moment WormyKrew was hammered. It's a guaranteed town win.

[Soben]

The action of someone being wagoned or put near a lynch doesn't by any means increase their likelihood of being town unless the lynch was strongly pushed by mafia, this is a concept you somehow are unable to grasp and continue attempting to defend them on those merits.

Furthermore I have played over at epic mafia for some time, I'm slightly ashamed to admit it because the level of skill over there has decreased for quite some time there and the act of 'forced dumbtelling' is one that's evident and witnessed multiple times, there are also occurances of it happening in forum mafia that I'd willingly post when I get time later. Essentially it's mafia attempting to act 'dumb' in a fashion that allows people to attain a town-read on them.

[mastin2]

And it's easily see-through.

I'm a vet EM player, too. I know of what you speak. Heck, I've faked it myself. It's easy to detect, easy to see through.

Like a player asking why there's a blue icon next to their name. In all of my EM time, I've only see one person successfully fake this, compared to at least a dozen or so legitimate cases.

[Twistedspoon]

eh, talk about jily and elsa then Mastin

Is soben was scum right now, and assuming ald is too, then she'd know that ald would flip scum right now, and as such I think her reaction to the hammer would have been the converse of what it is now (dissapointment, anger) as she'd know ald would flip scum
:/

[mastin2]

Considering I've seen Jily in multiple games, I've got a general feel for how she plays--she legitimately does put less effort into games where she is town, because they're more boring to her. There's more to it than that, though. On day one, you'll note she is a little more active than on Day two. The reason being, she had a role. Once her shot was used up, she was effectively reduced to being a VT--and to her, that's the ultimate boring of the boring. She no longer had an interesting role to use; she used it already.
This fits with a general newbie trend to dislike VT role PMs, too. Lots of Newbies hate the VT role. Lots don't think it has potential, think it is boring. Jily among them.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Twistedspoon]

yeah, I see what you're saying actually. That makes good sense

[mastin2]

Furthermore: Jily has been heavily suspected by all three of my scumreads.
WormyKrew suspected her on day one, heavily.
Ald has suspected her heavily.
Soben has expressed an extreme dislike for Jily.

That's more than enough to convince me. But there's more to it than just this, too.

First off, from memory, jily's newb-town, but still town.

Having gotten to Page 24, I must say, I'm kinda ashamed:

Jily's did better scumhunting than pretty much anyone else.

Defending Elsa as town, and pushing WormyKrew as scum, mainly.

Jily was one of the early WormyKrew pushers.
Read my extensive notes on the subject. I know the mind-set of a Newbie.

And this is still only scratching the surface. That's through 75 of my 181 posts, and not even beginning to go into Jily's ISO.

[Twistedspoon]

Soben has expressed an extreme dislike for Jily.

R and I are both leaning town on Jily. We wouldn't be devastated if she were lynched really due to her lack of content, but we won't be voting her today.