[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Faraday]

I think so. Depends on what, doesn't Donner Party for example have a limited reveal?

[Junpei]

I think so. Depends on what, doesn't Donner Party for example have a limited reveal?

Well since you're here I might as well tell what it is, I want it so that both mafia partners are tracked to the kill. And so that (for instance) if 1 mafia is nilla and 1 is RB, that if the RB were to use his ability, AND the mafia were to kill, that a track on the RB would show him going to 2 targets, the kill target and the roleblock target.

This would help my setup a lot given the other small changes I've made so I hope it is allowed.

[Faraday]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

[Junpei]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

The former, the mafia commit the kill as a group, they all could be tracked to the body.

[Amrun]

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town One-Shot Executioner
9 Vanilla Townies

-Mafia have daytalk.
-"Half the required lynch votes" is rounded up.
-An execution does

not

end the day.

Does the executioner work in LyLo?

[Shadowmod]

I didn't really check for balance myself, but I estimated that it is, at least somewhat.

x1 Mafia Godfather
x1 Elite Goon
x1 Mafia Goon
x1 Sane Cop
x1 Gunsmith
x1 Miller
x1 Gun Ownner
x6 VTs

Elite Goon is a Godfather for the Gunsmith. Gun Owner is (obviously) a Miller for the Gunsmith. Miller and Gun Owner recieve a VT Role PM, to prevent them from becoming a named townie. Note that Elite Goon

can

kill and that the Gun Owner

can't

.
Day start.

I don't really understand the criticism on this setup. As I understand it each investigator has a 2/3 chance to find scum (cop can find goon and elite goon, gunsmith can find godfather and goon).
Ignorant miller is definitely the way to go if you want to include millers in an open setup, else it's just day 1 miller claim time, bye bye miller, welcome confirmed townie.
If anything this setup is a bit boring because it's essentially just another cops and millers variant...

[...]
1 mafia RB
1 odd day fool
1 even day fool
1 town watcher
1 town cop
however many VTs you think
[...]

Also some of the criticism on this seems rather odd. With odd and even day limitations town defintely has a way to deal with either jester without losing. Maybe make it so odd jester cannot win on D1, though. And/or you replace the cop (boring and lame anyway) by an investigative role that can detect odd/evenness of players in some way (you'd have to develope such a mechanic a bit further obviously).
As a matter of fact many people just won't play a jester game, no matter how well constructed. That does not imply that

no one

would play it or have fun playing it. (I personally would rather not join something like this if it went anywhere into the 10+ player range). If you really want to run something like this, keep it as small and simple as possible and try it as a marathon game. Look how it plays out, refine it and maybe you'll arrive at something for the open queue eventually.

[Shadowmod]

Also I would really appreciate some comments on my suggestions, i.e. something more helpful than essentially "I don't understand your setup and am too lazy to figure it out".

---

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

---

NightWatch
Wolf Pack (Scum Team): 3 Werewolves - share a factional nightkill - share a factional track - the same werewolf can only either track or kill in each night	Night-Watch (Town-Aligned): 2 Nightwatchmen - Watchers & Masons - cannot target themselves or each other	Town: 7 Vanilla Townies 1 Sleepwalker - visits a random person every night - does not know he is the Sleepwalker - flips as Vanilla on death

[bvoigt]

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town One-Shot Executioner
9 Vanilla Townies

-Mafia have daytalk.
-"Half the required lynch votes" is rounded up.
-An execution does

not

end the day.

Does the executioner work in LyLo?

Yes, unless there's an obvious flaw I'm missing. FTR, it would be MyLo assuming there was a lynch and NK every day.

[Empking]

Also I would really appreciate some comments on my suggestions, i.e. something more helpful than essentially "I don't understand your setup and am too lazy to figure it out".

---

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

Too much positive feedback (/swingy). The idea is fundamentally unworkable.

---

NightWatch
Wolf Pack (Scum Team): 3 Werewolves - share a factional nightkill - share a factional track - the same werewolf can only either track or kill in each night	Night-Watch (Town-Aligned): 2 Nightwatchmen - Watchers & Masons - cannot target themselves or each other	Town: 7 Vanilla Townies 1 Sleepwalker - visits a random person every night - does not know he is the Sleepwalker - flips as Vanilla on death

Too much power is conentrated in two roles. Also, I think balance wise its scumfavoured.

[Junpei]

Also I would really appreciate some comments on my suggestions, i.e. something more helpful than essentially "I don't understand your setup and am too lazy to figure it out".

---

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

---

NightWatch
Wolf Pack (Scum Team): 3 Werewolves - share a factional nightkill - share a factional track - the same werewolf can only either track or kill in each night	Night-Watch (Town-Aligned): 2 Nightwatchmen - Watchers & Masons - cannot target themselves or each other	Town: 7 Vanilla Townies 1 Sleepwalker - visits a random person every night - does not know he is the Sleepwalker - flips as Vanilla on death

So... I'm assuming you want to lynch the mafia with the same color as you? The issue is that there is no way to discern who is what color.

[Shadow Dancer]

So... I'm assuming you want to lynch the mafia with the same color as you? The issue is that there is no way to discern who is what color.

Only that your role PM would obviously tell you...

Too much positive feedback (/swingy). The idea is fundamentally unworkable.

It is definitely

not

swingy. Yes, it can provide a lot of positive feedback for town, but it only rewards good scumhunting, so that's not a bad thing. It is designed to attenuate the worst problems with mountaineous games (no obscene number of townies required to balance it, lynching scum and doing it early does not cut back on chances to find further scum, causing great frustation for town, scum cannot solely use their night kill to eliminate good players)

Too much power is conentrated in two roles. Also, I think balance wise its scumfavoured.

Are you aware that these two theses blatantly contradict each other? And speaking about power concentrated in few roles think about the same setup, only with a cop instead. One could always reduce night watch power to one shared watch.

[Oversoul]

They don't contradict each other. By having all of your power in 2 roles, roles that are connected, you risk a rogue nightkill/track that could endanger the town's only powers. Spread the roles out and make the masonry not part of the watchers. Your sleepwalker role is essentially the Fool. Its utility is kinda nerfed in an open setup in my opinion.

[Empking]

So... I'm assuming you want to lynch the mafia with the same color as you? The issue is that there is no way to discern who is what color.

Only that your role PM would obviously tell you...

Too much positive feedback (/swingy). The idea is fundamentally unworkable.

It is definitely

not

swingy. Yes, it can provide a lot of positive feedback for town, but it only rewards good scumhunting, so that's not a bad thing.

Re Swingy: Three blues die and you lynch the blue scum. Three blues die and you lynch the red scum. Two completely different scenarios based on the same amount of skill. That's swingy in my book.
Re Positive Feedback: 1. Or they got lucky rather than good scumhunting. 2. Positive Feedback is always a bad thing.

Too much power is conentrated in two roles. Also, I think balance wise its scumfavoured.

Are you aware that these two theses blatantly contradict each other?

They don't.

And speaking about power concentrated in few roles think about the same setup, only with a cop instead. One could always reduce night watch power to one shared watch.

Cop strikes me as going overboard. I'df be inclined to move toward the miller route.

[Hoopla]

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

This is borderline broken - I'm not sure what the best strategy is, but it's quite likely the town will fall into a lucky situation where they can PoE scum. A scum lynch confirms between 1-4 players as town, and scum can't kill an entire colour without outing themselves. There's decent chances the last scum could find themself being outnumbered by confirmed other colours.

Worst-case scenario for town (assuming they massclaim) is lynching through an entire colour, hitting scum on D5 in 4:3 lylo, and having scum whittle down the other two colours for you to leave a 50/50 in 3:2 on D6, and a 1/3 on D7 in a 3 player same colour lylo. That's the best scum can hope for - in the majority games, town will hit before their 5th attempt at the first colour, meaning they have a couple of free shots to hit in the next colour (and the next) before a 50/50 on D6 happens.

[Lost Butterfly]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

The former, the mafia commit the kill as a group, they all could be tracked to the body.

That's quite powerful in how it helps the tracker. What would the full set-up be?

[Junpei]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

The former, the mafia commit the kill as a group, they all could be tracked to the body.

That's quite powerful in how it helps the tracker. What would the full set-up be?

I have been discussing this setup a lot with maxwell in PMs, as well as a bit with Hoopla, but a fourth set of eyes can't hurt. Here is what we got:

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Regular Mafia
1 Odd Day Fool
1 Even Day Fool
1 Town Hider
1 Town Neighbourizer
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Vigilante
8 VTs

Things I'll shoot down quickly:

1) Odd day fools' advantage (an extra day possibly) is greatly diminished (in my opinion it balances itself out) because the later days have less people each day, therefore a greater chance to get lynched

2) A lylo with 1 fool who is not on the day he wants to be lynched, 1 mafia, and 1 town (3way lylo) is not broken in my opinion. If fool doesn't claim he has lost then there's no reason for an issue. If he does, then mafia will too, in fact mafia might go first to feign fool. Then you have off-day fool CCs, with the clear town having to choose between 1) the fool (mafia win) or 2) the mafia (town win).

We're thinking that we'll give neighborizer the choice of getting a new QT or keeping the old one each time he recruits. Day start.

[Empking]

Junpei: Repeat after me: "Jester"

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

Only Good Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

[Hoopla]

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

I didn't. Mafia obviously has the lowest chances of success, and the Odd-Day Fool is decently better than the Even-Day Fool because of the headstart.

[Junpei]

Junpei: Repeat after me: "Jester"

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

Empking how about instead of pushing down the setup for those facts you examine it more closely? Notice 2 fools.

Hoopla, there is nothing more than a mental headstart, but each day the chances of a lynch go up and up and up for fool.

[Empking]

Since you post before my edit.

Only Decent Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

Junpei: The fools hurt Mafia at least as much as the Town (proportional to the odds of them otherwise winning).

[Junpei]

Since you post before my edit.

Only Decent Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

Junpei: The fools hurt Mafia at least as much as the Town (proportional to the odds of them otherwise winning).

Town need to use their vigilante shot to try and shoot down the fools. Mafia need to use their night shot on Town PRs, not the fool, the fool isn't important at night for mafia for most of the game.

Also that doesn't mean anything Empking, stating those sorts of facts are rather silly alone because you aren't taking the whole setup into perspective. I'm sort of hoping for unbiased answers in that things people notice without seeing all my notes. But I guess I'll post my notes once no one else wants to comment on the setup.

[Hoopla]

Junpei: Repeat after me: "Jester"

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

Empking how about instead of pushing down the setup for those facts you examine it more closely? Notice 2 fools.

Hoopla, there is nothing more than a mental headstart, but each day the chances of a lynch go up and up and up for fool.

The improved odds of being lynched is inversely proportionate to the odds of surviving until that point, so improved odds on a given day isn't a relevant point, as you need to survive to get there first. The only important point is if the game ends on Day 5, the Odd-Day Fool has had three chances of being lynched to the Even-Day Fool's two. If it end on Day 6, it's 3-3. If it ends on Day 7, it's 4-3 again. The Even-Day Fool is always one step behind.

In a sudden-death penalty shoot-out in soccer, you don't win if you go first and kick a goal. The other person gets a shot to equalise, and you then start a new round. "Going first" is clearly an advantage for the Odd-Day Fool.

[Junpei]

Well Hoopla, first I want to say happy birthday, and thank you for taking time to discuss this with me.

Secondly, oddwise yes the death rate is equivalence to improved odds. However vigilante will only target you if town thinks you're a fool. Mafia will only target you if mafia thinks you're a town PR. The trick is to appear neither a threat to the mafia or a fool, and then appear as scum during the day.

Thirdly if you get to use soccer as an analogy then I'll use football. In overtime in football if you score a touchdown, you win the game. If you fail to then you flip it over to the other team and if they score a touchdown they win, if not then flip it to you, etc. BUT, these analogies are terrible as it implies 1 on 1 action.

[Shadowmod]

about RGB: I already said that it's still 60:40 balanced towards scum in case of a day one mass claim (but people seem to collective overestimate all three, the amount of good luck they can actually expect, their own superior scum hunting abilities and the actual chances of town to win in mountaineuos, that's no news), that's hardly borderline broken. Day 1 mass claim is not the best strategy for town though, because it allows scum to chose optimal night kills. Of course strategies involve around good claim timing, PoE and lynching by colour. And the "worst case scenario" for scum is not that bad because it also for the most part nullifies town's ability to get confirmed townies out of a correct lynch, the longer the game drags on the closer actual probabilities come to pure mountaineous actually.
About the "three blues die and you lynch the red scum" scenario - before you call this unfair try to convince any real town in an actual game to take that route. Most players aren't so fond of all in gambles.
The game could be reduced to 12 players or possibly 12 player night start where scum can chose to eliminate one townie by colour pre-game, but statistically that's already really bad for town (about 80% scum win or something, not sure right now) and unneededly mechanically complecated.

about NightWatch: I think you don't get the cop point. What I mean is if you take out the watch and add a cop instead you get rather more power at the price of horrendous swingyness (the outcome of the game heavily depends on whether scum get that lucky early cop kill or cop waggon/claim). And the miller route is already taken with the sleepwalker. One could increase the number of these, of course, but anything above two would be just bad.

Sleepwalker is not a fool (i.e. jester) but a miller variant.
Everything I suggested is neither as rediculously broken nor swingy as a single normal sane cop is.

if you want to stop single lucky incidents from absolutely swinging games into one direction or the other you need to ban all strong roles such as cop or vig as well as half of the currently approved open setups, such as p.e. rusty guillotine, anything with a cop in it etc., where town heavily depends on one single investigative role.
Having two to three PRs in a game this size is absolutely normal. And two masonized watchers is actually pretty hard on scum because it really forces a cat and mouse night game onto them.

Contrary what you might assume I really theoretically checked these setups concerning the relevant parameters of breakability, statistical balance, and variance (i.e. swingyness / luck impact) and they fare much better than a lot of the stuff that is actual approved open game stock right now.

@junpei: How do hider, neighbourizer and doctor actually contribute to a game revolving around odd/even day jesters. Looks like just a bunch of random roles thrown together.

@Empking: Seriously, suggestions like that make me doubt if I should even take anything you say seriously... double kill mafia, 2 vigs four bombs... Great. I have played these kind of (marathon) games. They are just bad and if you want people to actually have

some

fun in them you should be consequent and eliminate the remaining VTs and replace them by redirectors or something, because else they are just random targets for all the jerks with a gun in a game that is decided at the latest in night 2 by something that can best be described as total and utter chaos.

@Hoopla & Junpei: Has any one done the actual

math

on the balance between even and odd day fool (and possibly odd day without D1 fool) yet? This is really not a subject to wild speculation.

[Junpei]

Hider also dies when visiting fools, I thought that was standard, the other person responsible for this setup, maxwell, introduced this role to me.

Neighborizer would be very interesting I think due to something called "fool paranoia" as it adds another layer of scumhunting, possible gambits, and would be really fun. Doctor protects the vigilante, yes? Doctor protects town PRs yes?

Well the math is a bit obvious isn't it? The chances of getting lynched WILL be better based on the chance of death. However scumhunting is a major factor in this so I think that it isn't an issue at all despite the small advantage.