Open 330: Masons and Mafia (Game Over, Scum Win)

[Quilford]

four day long game lols

[kanyeknowsbest]

the best kind of game.

[glowball]

I'm... glad I got shot at? .-.
Also, Yami-chan alt? XD

if you are talking about me, which has been said before I'd ask that you not insult me with your little alt jokes- it's rude laugh at your keyboard because i guarantee you wouldn't dare say some shit like that to me IRL

He just said what everyone but you was thinking.

and there chamber goes being a dick again...

[Ellibereth]

Oh if anyone here is in my other games.
I already did Hurricane Alert v/la and stuff earlier.
But just in case and stuff.
BYE GUYZ.
SDC NEEDS TO ALL /IN FOR GAME AGAIN.
THAT'S BALANCED.

[dramonic]

I'm... glad I got shot at? .-.
Also, Yami-chan alt? XD

if you are talking about me, which has been said before I'd ask that you not insult me with your little alt jokes- it's rude laugh at your keyboard because i guarantee you wouldn't dare say some shit like that to me IRL

why not?

[chamber]

I'm... glad I got shot at? .-.
Also, Yami-chan alt? XD

if you are talking about me, which has been said before I'd ask that you not insult me with your little alt jokes- it's rude laugh at your keyboard because i guarantee you wouldn't dare say some shit like that to me IRL

He just said what everyone but you was thinking.

and there chamber goes being a dick again...

Just being honest, take it how you will. I'll admit I haven't gotten through the whole QT yet but it looks like you were just making enemies where there were none. The yami parallel is easy to draw.

[glowball]

I'm... glad I got shot at? .-.
Also, Yami-chan alt? XD

if you are talking about me, which has been said before I'd ask that you not insult me with your little alt jokes- it's rude laugh at your keyboard because i guarantee you wouldn't dare say some shit like that to me IRL

He just said what everyone but you was thinking.

and there chamber goes being a dick again...

Just being honest, take it how you will. I'll admit I haven't gotten through the whole QT yet but it looks like you were just making enemies where there were none. The yami parallel is easy to draw.

say what you will, I'm killing this thread now it's unimportant and I've already decided who to blacklist because I don't want this experience again.

[kanyeknowsbest]

you really got to turn that frown upside down glowby, stop bringing yourself down and cheer up :]

[chamber]

More on the balance:

The issue I see is primarily that the benefit the masons gain from discussion and knowing who isn't mafia is about equivalent to the mafia's ability to figure out the masons identity, but the mafia can act on that information significantly more effectively than the masons can. I think the masons are more of a downside than a positive.

[SpyreX]

I think the setup is balanced in the sense its winnable but - its really, really swingy. I'd love to see data on this later.

[silavor]

As far as I know only one other game's been played so far, and it was a town win

http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=10560

[glowball]

Oh! I thought of something- but it kind of sucks. I think it might be more fair since the game is nightless if mafia don't get to talk but instead are just aware of the others.

[gandalf5166]

You guys lynched two masons. Lol.

[chamber]

Kats said something like that too, I find both statements odd. Its fairly easy to lynch a mason in this setup, its hard for their fellow masons to defend them. Lynching a mason is better than lynching a VT. I don't get why its notable I geuss?

[kanyeknowsbest]

lynching a vt is better because you can kill the mason at any time once you know they are a mason. if you dont lynch vts you get into the situation we were in day 2 where, even though we know the last mason, we still need to push another mislynch through. if we had lynched a vt instead of crazy, our missed shot would not have mattered and we could have ended the game right there without having to risk another lynch.

that said, mason lynches definitely have the added benefit of aiding in mason hunting, since i felt the crazy lynch made ellimason pretty obvious, and i think if we hadnt rushed the dram shot we could have ended it then.

[chamber]

lynching a vt is better because you can kill the mason at any time once you know they are a mason. if you dont lynch vts you get into the situation we were in day 2 where, even though we know the last mason, we still need to push another mislynch through. if we had lynched a vt instead of crazy, our missed shot would not have mattered and we could have ended the game right there without having to risk another lynch.

that said, mason lynches definitely have the added benefit of aiding in mason hunting, since i felt the crazy lynch made ellimason pretty obvious, and i think if we hadnt rushed the dram shot we could have ended it then.

I was speaking from the town pov and you from the scum so I think we agree?

[kanyeknowsbest]

ah, i see.

[xRECKONERx]

lol imbalanced setup

lol I called SpyreX/Katsuki scum and nobody would listen

lol dumbass town lynched two masons

[SpyreX]

I think part of this setup that intrigues me is, ultimately, how much weight is on the VT's.

A group of hard and fast VT's that can start making reads and holding to them hard enough that they draw mason-shots early could be catastrophic for scum.

[Katsuki]

no one disrespected you ever. you were mad that katsuki is in a different timezone and that i was maintaining my lurker status since there was no need to break it, and for some reason took our explanations of this as an attack against you? also you were being hella impatient and the failed dram shot is proof of that.

if you are talking about the fact that we lynched elli instead of shooting him, that shit was just safe play, regardless of whether or not katsuki got to gloat for it. we were pretty sure that he was the last mason but theres no reason to take that shot and risk it if we didnt need to. and i dont feel any shame in not dropping the act as soon as the last hammer was in. play that shit til the flip just in case.

NO I was mad that you guys were posting in QT if it was SOLELY a timezone thing then you wouldn't have been posting at all. You were lurking and playing an easy game. I wasn't rushing and IN FACT YOU GUYS told me to shoot Dram, and I am happy I did because you guys were extremely rude and disrespectful in treating me like I wasn't a valued player. That's that and YOU WERE DEFINITELY PUSHING AN AGENDA TO GLOAT NOT BEING CAREFUL JUST ARROGANT.

OK NEXT TIME WE'LL JUST SPAM THE THREAD EVEN IF NO ONE IS POSTING IN IT K

[gandalf5166]

I think part of this setup that intrigues me is, ultimately, how much weight is on the VT's.

A group of hard and fast VT's that can start making reads and holding to them hard enough that they draw mason-shots early could be catastrophic for scum.

Yeah, I was kind of disappointed that aside from Fate, NONE of the VTs were doing anything to draw shots.

[Katsuki]

Re: Setup: I agree with Spyspy, a lot of responsibility does fall on the VTs. I wouldn't say the setup is inbalanced, since not only do mafia suicide upon hitting a VT, but you can't even kill off those VTs if you want to!

If anything, Dram was the only VT who played like a mason.

[Katsuki]

I think part of this setup that intrigues me is, ultimately, how much weight is on the VT's.

A group of hard and fast VT's that can start making reads and holding to them hard enough that they draw mason-shots early could be catastrophic for scum.

Yeah, I was kind of disappointed that aside from Fate, NONE of the VTs were doing anything to draw shots.

Oh yeah Fate too.

He was obvobvtown

[Katsuki]

ALso, how many times do I have to say that I am a GIRL! Still disrespectful...

Your avatar looks male.

My avatar is also yellow with no nose and no fingers

The yellow one's a male though.

[Hoopla]

This setup has to be anti town. 9-3 nightless is 50/50 ev, I hear town wins 8/4 nightless though, at anyrate I think this is worse for town than 8/4 nightless. the strength masons have is shat on by the mechanic, may as well be 8/4 nightless where the mafia can randomly get kills.

8:4 Nightless is very town-sided from the games I've witnessed. The problem with Nightless games is that they suffer from a lot of positive feedback - a scum lynch earns the town an additional mislynch, and reduces the scum's abilities. With no way to eliminate townies other than the lynch, the game becomes more difficult for scum the deeper it goes, as the last 1 or 2 scum have to occupy the most towniest looking positions, which is just not realistic. Scums best chance of winning a Nightless 8:4 is by not giving the town an additional mislynch, and sweeping the town with 4 mislynches. The next likeliest chance is one scum dying and getting 5 mislynches (and so on).

EV isn't a relevant consideration in Nightless games (or at least when comparing it to the EV of normal games), as the function of the scumteam is completely different. There's a

huge

difference in having the ability to manipulate the game via nightkills and remove obv-townies/good players in a normal mountainous game, and a Nightless game where you can't do either. You literally have to play scum in a completely different manner.

~~

I suspect this setup is still slightly town-sided - the double-edged sword of dying as scum if you miss is really valuable to town. The mechanic of forcing the masons to stay hidden is compelling to me, because it subverts traditional mason play, where you claim and become confirmed town. To have an influence, and use your numbers to manipulate lynches without giving your identity away is a lot more challenging.

If this setup was run again, I think certain strategies might start to evolve. It is probably optimal from a scum perspective to only risk a shot when you're about to be lynched - if you're in no immediate danger of being lynched, what incentive is there to shoot? Even if your target is seemingly obv-mason, you might get them lynched before you need to take a shot at them. The scum shot is probably best used as a "well, I'm going down anyway, might as well try and hit a mason".

Conversely, if scum played in this manner, it would probably be in towns interest to push a lot of wagons to L-1 and leave them dangling to try and tempt the scum into a shot or risk being hammered. Someone then being shot while a player is at L-1 implies that player is scum, or scum are playing wifom games and taking a risk shooting unnecessarily (which is what town want).

~~

Anyway, I'm curious to see if anybody would play this again? Was it a fun setup? I suspect the balance concerns is more of a knee-jerk reaction to this current game than an objective view of the full spectrum of possibilities. The last time this setup was run, town won with 4 players left alive.