Mini 1217 - Campaign Mafia (Game Over!)

[Maruchan]

Damn...
Packbat is the single most abysmal town player I've ever encountered in any of my games I guess... I mean - 100% wrong over four or five elections?

Gee, tell us how you

really

feel.

The more I think about the maru situation the more I think that some mod-legislation would have been appropriate. Not reading one's role PM pre-game before posting a vote or, in this case, entering an election is absolutely against the spirit of the game. Since this is an open setup any combination of force replacement and redistributing role PMs wouldn't have been too much trouble.

Yes.

Force-replace and role-rerolling would have been good, there - definite violation of community norms by Maruchan, here.

community norms? Has this type of a game ever been tried before? Or anything similar? If the answer is NO, how in FUCKS name is there a "community norm" for the behavior when dealing with this game? hmm?

/endmewinningargument

[hiplop]

Damn...
Packbat is the single most abysmal town player I've ever encountered in any of my games I guess... I mean - 100% wrong over four or five elections?

Gee, tell us how you

really

feel.

The more I think about the maru situation the more I think that some mod-legislation would have been appropriate. Not reading one's role PM pre-game before posting a vote or, in this case, entering an election is absolutely against the spirit of the game. Since this is an open setup any combination of force replacement and redistributing role PMs wouldn't have been too much trouble.

Yes.

Force-replace and role-rerolling would have been good, there - definite violation of community norms by Maruchan, here.

community norms? Has this type of a game ever been tried before? Or anything similar? If the answer is NO, how in FUCKS name is there a "community norm" for the behavior when dealing with this game? hmm?

/endmewinningargument

its still mafia

[Shadow Dancer]

@Maru:
There was absolutely nohing wrong with the quick nomiation, quite contrary it was exactly the strategy I was advertising for.

What was just absolutely bad was the not reading your town read part. There is no town motivation to do that and it's just plain inacceptable behaviour.

Had you just read your role PM and laid down why you considered a instant nomination a favourable tactic for town it would have been perfectly fine.

As with almost everything in mafia the mistake was not in doing it but in

how

you did it.

[Lurconis]

Yeah Maru I think your strategy would of worked as well if it hadn't been for the line about going to read your pm.

@Packbat out of curiosity if Duplicity had taken quill with him into lylo would you of voted Dup or Quill?

[Packbat]

I'm not sure - it

had

occurred to me that scum might try a WIFOM gambit.

[Maruchan]

Damn...
Packbat is the single most abysmal town player I've ever encountered in any of my games I guess... I mean - 100% wrong over four or five elections?

Gee, tell us how you

really

feel.

The more I think about the maru situation the more I think that some mod-legislation would have been appropriate. Not reading one's role PM pre-game before posting a vote or, in this case, entering an election is absolutely against the spirit of the game. Since this is an open setup any combination of force replacement and redistributing role PMs wouldn't have been too much trouble.

Yes.

Force-replace and role-rerolling would have been good, there - definite violation of community norms by Maruchan, here.

community norms? Has this type of a game ever been tried before? Or anything similar? If the answer is NO, how in FUCKS name is there a "community norm" for the behavior when dealing with this game? hmm?

/endmewinningargument

its still mafia

Point to any other game of mafia where it is bad-form to elect yourself for the public election quickly.

owait.

THATS MECHANIC DEPENDANT
saywut?

[Maruchan]

Yeah Maru I think your strategy would of worked as well if it hadn't been for the line about going to read your pm.

@Packbat out of curiosity if Duplicity had taken quill with him into lylo would you of voted Dup or Quill?

we all have perfect hindsight.

[Shift]

I feel bad for bailing on Regfan in this.

Nah but time zones absolutely destroyed us this game, I wasn't willing to post without checking with him first because it's hurt us in previous games we've played and was scared he had a different plan in mind. In the end I just felt it would be better to bail.

[Magua]

Point to any other game of mafia where it is bad-form to elect yourself for the public election quickly.

owait.

THATS MECHANIC DEPENDANT
saywut?

In every other game of mafia, where the town is the uninformed majority and the mafia is the informed minority, depriving town of the ability to gather information or strategize or get reads.

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Secondly, at no point is it a good idea to perform any actions in a game without having read your role PM, because it is absolutely impossible for you to be playing to your win condition without it.

[Shadow Dancer]

It makes perfectly sense for mafia to not read their role PM, magua. Good scum play simply means to blend in as townie perfectly - and not reading your role PM and hence being ignorant about who your partners are makes that a whole lot easier.
That's why it's inacceptable behaviour.
Besids that maru's play was in no way equivalent to a post 1 dayvig. And besides, optimal control of information flow in a information based game always depends on which side has the initiative or can make the more educated decission, and inthis game it's alot about scum nominations which give scum the upper edge which is why town should play less open than normally.

[Magua]

It makes perfectly sense for mafia to not read their role PM, magua. Good scum play simply means to blend in as townie perfectly - and not reading your role PM and hence being ignorant about who your partners are makes that a whole lot easier.

I'm aware of the Quagmire argument; I simply don't believe it. If you are bad enough as scum that you think not reading your Role PM will make you better scum, you'll be *twice* as obvious D2 when your (apparently transparent) behavior changes.

(Or to put it another way: if it were good play, everyone should do it. If everyone did it, would the game improve?)

Besids that maru's play was in no way equivalent to a post 1 dayvig.

How so? Srs question. He took an irreversible action when he had no information that deprived the town of information.

And besides, optimal control of information flow in a information based game always depends on which side has the initiative or can make the more educated decission, and inthis game it's alot about scum nominations which give scum the upper edge which is why town should play less open than normally.

The fact that there are times when it is a good idea for town to do things that deprive the rest of the town of information does not mean that every time this happens, it is a good idea.

[Faraday]

It makes perfectly sense for mafia to not read their role PM, magua. Good scum play simply means to blend in as townie perfectly - and not reading your role PM and hence being ignorant about who your partners are makes that a whole lot easier.

It also means you're not playing the game day 1. You don't have a win condition.

People who do that are just idiots.

[Maruchan]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

[Johhog]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

I think this tells us a bit about the playing strength of Maruchan.

[Maruchan]

Besids that maru's play was in no way equivalent to a post 1 dayvig.

How so? Srs question. He took an irreversible action when he had no information that deprived the town of information.

Because 2 ppl didn't die. Whether we got that information in the Morning Phase/Evenign Phase is non-important. The only DIFFERENCE is if we get info in the morning phase, then scum ALSO had it in the afternoon phase.

Therefore I deprived town of nothing they couldn't still get (information in the evening phase, before any flips), BUT I DID deprive scum of something THEY could have gotten (information before they had to make a nomination)

[Twistedspoon]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

I think this tells us a bit about the playing strength of Maruchan.

maruchan isn't bad as scum actually

[Maruchan]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

I think this tells us a bit about the playing strength of Maruchan.

The reason I would do that compared to the reason I did this are two completely different reasons.

I would do THAT for the lulz. Immediate dayvig. Like on EM, when there is a gunsmith and I am given a gun, I Immediately yell out a name and tell them to claim or die. If they claim and I feel inclined to believe it, they live and I move on to contestant #2. If they refuse to claim, they die.

[Maruchan]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

I think this tells us a bit about the playing strength of Maruchan.

maruchan isn't bad as scum actually

He makes a fair point. I MAY be scummy, but I'm also always NOT QUITE as scummy as the next guy. So I may be in everyone's scumdars all-game but still win, because I wasn't THE scummiest.

Or sometimes I get supertowncred as scum. Just depends on my mood that month.

(first example would be my completed newbie, and second example would be of the Vegas Mafia, both linked in my wiki)

[Pomegranate]

I think this type of game would work pretty well in face to face mafia, given the lack of confusing PRs and stuff.

[Maruchan]

^^^^^^
Agreed

[Faraday]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

I think this tells us a bit about the playing strength of Maruchan.

maruchan isn't bad as scum actually

relevance to him doing retarded shit is fairly low

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm aware of the Quagmire argument; I simply don't believe it. If you are bad enough as scum that you think not reading your Role PM will make you better scum, you'll be *twice* as obvious D2 when your (apparently transparent) behavior changes.

Unless you just do this to get "honest" D1 reads and then just go from there D2. However I don't even want to discuss how this would best be done as scum... The point isthat is should not be done at all. Scum motivation to not read their role PM might already be pretty bad, but there is absolutely no motivation for town to do so whatsoever and it is not playing the game and mods should take care that it doesn't happen.

(Or to put it another way: if it were good play, everyone should do it. If everyone did it, would the game improve?)

No, but it would have no real impact on D1 town play because for being entirely ignorant about everything, which is a the typical townie's initial situation, not having read you role PM does not have much of an effect. The game would definitely not improve. And as I see it it is breaking a rule (a mostly unwritten one, but that's only because people normally have enough decency to not do it anyway), the discussion wheter breaking it constantly would improve the game is besides the point.

The fact that there are times when it is a good idea for town to do things that deprive the rest of the town of information does not mean that every time this happens, it is a good idea.

So this is

some

argument for... er...something... and in this

special case

...er... because

in general

you shouldn't... So you

never ever

should... Or something... *lol*

[Magua]

Shadow Dancer, you're agreeing with everything I'm saying, so I'm really curious as to why we're arguing.

<_<
>_>

[Maruchan]

Your play was equivalent to being a day vig and vigging someone in the first post of the game.

Which is also something I would do if ever given a dayvig role...

I think this tells us a bit about the playing strength of Maruchan.

maruchan isn't bad as scum actually

relevance to him doing retarded shit is fairly low

so since everyone (including mod) agrees that quick-volunteer day 1 is a GOOD idea, you think that me not reading my role PM immediately is 100% grounds for a quicklynch, since my action of quick-electing was accepted, but apparently the only bad part was not reading my role pm?

[Magua]

everyone