Mortal Kombat Mafia (Game Over: Mafia Win)

[zMuffinMan]

And also the composition of that CSL wagon.

CSL (7) - The Fonz, Darox, GreyICE, Toogeloo, Internet Stranger, Bogre, Nero Cain

No. If CSL was scum and Nero was a mislynch, half of those people would be on Nero.

[The Fonz]

He's town because Nero is scum. It's more like "CSL is not scum of the same faction as Nero" than "CSL is town". If there's a single scum faction and no third parties, then I think CSL is town after a Nero scum flip.

Yeah, I know. CSL is lurking. CL is "opportunistic". That's why he's a good counter-wagon for scum to be on. He's an easy lynch.

She. And arguments are 'easy' to make because they're valid and scummy. I find Nero scummy, but there's some evidence of the possibility of actual scumhunting there, no? CSL just slips one vote after another onto a growing wagon and hopes no-one notices.

[CSL]

Just wait until I flip town. Then you'll all be over Nero like fleas on a dog.

[zMuffinMan]

I find Nero scummy, but there's some evidence of the possibility of actual scumhunting there, no?

No.

Unless you count his push for Oversoul's lynch.

He asks some questions here and there, but nothing that could really be considered "scum hunting" because he does absolutely nothing with the answers, he pursues none of his "scum suspects" apart from Oversoul, is "scum suspects" have a tendency to vastly change for unknown reasons with no explanation.

CSL just slips one vote after another onto a growing wagon and hopes no-one notices.

At least you can tell where CSL's suspicions lie.

I'd even argue CSL has done a bit more in the way of scum hunting because I can clearly see what his suspicions really are, even if I don't like some aspects of his play.

Regardless, point isn't about who's done more in the way of scum hunting, it's about who's actually scum.

And I'm not overly concerned with getting "he"/"she" right.

[The Fonz]

Well, you and Nero were 2/3 of my top suspects all day, so I'm not sure why that would be surprising.

My top suspects are CSL, Magister Ludi and Nero Cain. This isn't ambiguous.

The one player whose alignment I think is largely predicated on yours is Darox- looks scummy in isolation, but I really don't see him scum with you. You've pulled the 'Oh I'm sorry I'm playing badly' card and now the 'Just wait till I flip town' card. Pretty much every argument that raw newbies and scum pull out to try to AtE. You're not a raw newbie.

[The Fonz]

Regardless, point isn't about who's done more in the way of scum hunting, it's about who's actually scum.

And I'm not overly concerned with getting "he"/"she" right.

Scumhunting/not scumhunting is the number one biggest indicator of scum/town. Not quality of argument, not position on wagon. Whether or not someone's making an honest to God effort to find scum and convince people that you've found scum. CSL doesn't appear to have had an original thought all game.

And I don't see why you'd make a point of deliberately getting her gender wrong once pointed out, but whatever. It's pretty obvious she's a girl.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the people doing less scum hunting are necessarily scum. There are other ways to get reads on people (and I know you know this because you have a town read on Oversoul for sort of the same reason as I do, even though he hasn't done all too much in the way of scum hunting in this game, at least not that I can recall).

I do not have any strong feelings that CSL is town independent of Nero (although the lack of effort is something I'd describe as more likely to come from lazy town than lazy scum, because lazy scum still needs to try and look town), but if Nero is scum, I'm 99.999% certain that CSL is town, or at least not scum of the same faction as Nero. This is based entirely on Nero's posts, it has nothing to do with what I think of CSL's posts.

But you think Nero is likely scum anyway, right? Do you have an issue with lynching Nero over CSL? And then maybe reconsidering CSL if Nero flips scum?

The gender thing wasn't a deliberate point. It was more that I'd already written "he"/"his" a few times in the post, realised it when I got to the end, and couldn't be bothered to go back and change it.

[CSL]

How obvious is it, Fonz?

[zMuffinMan]

I take back what I said about Oversoul not scum hunting. Brief skimming of his ISO reveals he's done more scum hunting than CSL and Nero combined. Regardless, you don't have a town read on Oversoul because of his scum hunting.

[The Fonz]

I find Nero scummy, but there's some evidence of the possibility of actual scumhunting there, no?

No.

Unless you count his push for Oversoul's lynch.

He asks some questions here and there, but nothing that could really be considered "scum hunting" because he does absolutely nothing with the answers, he pursues none of his "scum suspects" apart from Oversoul, is "scum suspects" have a tendency to vastly change for unknown reasons with no explanation.

Well, let's look at this. He voted Amrun D1. (I don't find votehopping in the early, low-info part of the game to be scummy). The day was cut short prematurely with a modkill. That was followed by two uncontested PR info lynches, by the time we had a choice in who to lynch, then Amrun was investigated not-BD. It doesn't make much sense to keep pushing her after that. Goes after Oversoul, pushes him from there. His other suspect was T-Bone, who died overnight, so obviously that suspicion has gone.

Today he comes out gunning for Oversoul, also points up MOS and CSL as scummy and gives reasons. Shifts later in the day when it's obvious there isn't going to be an Oversoul wagon but there might well be one on secondary suspect CSL, which is good town play.

Actually, looking at it in that context, he doesn't look particularly scummy to me at all any more.

[The Fonz]

How obvious is it, Fonz?

Very. Any male owning an avatar like that should turn in his man card immediately.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, let's look at this. He voted Amrun D1.

Um, no, he first voted Amrun on like D2 or D3, whenever Amrun was the wagon that was going to compete with one of the scum wagons. His D1 posts were "vote fate lolol fate vs cooldog" then "vote spring lolol spring vs palisade" and nothing else. A minor point, but yeah, it's not like he voted Amrun D1 prior to the info lynches happening.

Goes after Oversoul, pushes him from there. His other suspect was T-Bone, who died overnight, so obviously that suspicion has gone.

Right, but if we're looking at it in terms of "scum hunting", his vote on Oversoul on D4 was because Oversoul irked him - nothing else. I don't see how you think this is at all different to what CSL is doing.

He had given far more in the way of reasons to want to lynch T-Bone than Oversoul (even though those reasons were craptastic), yet he was content with forcing a Palisade vs Oversoul fight, having done absolutely nothing that you would consider scum hunting up to that point.

This is everything before D5.

D5:

also points up MOS and CSL as scummy and gives reasons.

No.

I don't recall him ever giving reasons for thinking CSL is scummy. Maybe I missed it. But it was basically "I find CSL scummy" and then he continues to call her scummy.

As for his suspicion of MoS, it's based entirely on the fact that MoS did not vote for IS when he first expressed suspicion of IS, which makes absolutely no sense because MoS was voting for you at the time. It's essentially like him suggesting you'd be scummy if you voted for him because you didn't vote for him when you first expressed suspicion of him. It's not a valid point. It's not scum hunting. It's doing the sort of misrepresenting that made you want to lynch Palisade.

Shifts later in the day when it's obvious there isn't going to be an Oversoul wagon but there might well be one on secondary suspect CSL, which is good town play.

Um... NO.

He voted for LUDI, who he had called IDIOTIC TOWN for the entire day. Then he shifted to CSL in recent posts.

[zMuffinMan]

#1226 - Ludi - who he'd insisted was idiotic town and hasn't expressed any suspicion of whatsoever the entire game
#1263 - Oversoul again
#1294 - i.e. the previous page when it's fairly obvious that this is going to be CSL vs Nero - he votes for CSL.

That's not town play. Don't even pretend it is.

[zMuffinMan]

These are all the posts Nero mentions CSL

#1056 - no reason, just "CSL is pretty scummy"
#1123 - again, no reason
#1163 - again, no reason
#1196 - still no reason, sensing a pattern though... Not entirely sure what that pattern is but I'll tell you when I'm done
#1206 - still no reason
#1207 - still no reason
#1214 - still no reason
#1220 - still no reason
#1226 - still no reason
#1294 - Oh here's a rea- HAHA JUST KIDDING, still no reason

[kiwieagle]

So its safe to assume we can put CSL vs Nero in the ring?

SO then Nero either gives a reason or gets lynched

[The Fonz]

And incidentally, kiwi is really scummy. Problem is, kiwi is ALWAYS really scummy.

[CSL]

Then put him in the ring tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

Fonz, if you get time before the choosing stage, just go through my wall on the previous page. It's not *that* long, probably a 5 minute read at most. It tells you everything about why you're wrong if you're even considering the possibility that Nero is town, and if you don't agree with it, I want to know why.

I'll do a short version if you want.

These are the people he's expressed suspicion of this game:

Oversoul, T-Bone, Amrun, MoS, CSL, Toogeloo, Fonz, Darox, Muffin, Ludi

These are the people he's given reasons for:

Oversoul, T-Bone, MoS

These are the people who were a scum read at one point but he's completely forgotten about with no explanation:

Toogeloo, Fonz, Darox

These are the people he has given valid reasons for suspecting:



And yeah, that's pretty much a summary of his scum hunting so far.

[The Fonz]

Your arguments pretty much add up to 'He doesn't give reasons.'

[zMuffinMan]

No, that's my argument against you telling me that he's been scum hunting. That shit is specifically in response to your #1309.

My argument for why he's scum is that when he does give reasons (for example, Oversoul, MoS, T-Bone) the reasons are laughable, and his lines of thought are scummy because he's inconsistent and hypocritical. Well, that's in a nutshell, if you want elaboration, go to the wall.

[zMuffinMan]

Nero encompasses everything you thought made Palisade "scummy" and more.

You've only ignored it because Palisade was doing it to you and Nero has been doing it to Oversoul and a couple others.

[The Fonz]

No. Palisade made arguments about me that no-one could possibly believe. I was obviously talking about the thought process of a player who was dead town, so the suggestion that it showed insider knowledge could not have been true. He had to know this - no-one is that stupid. Only scum should lie, so he shoulda been scum. He also scumslipped. Nero is making arguments that aren't, on the face of them, anywhere near that horrible.

[zMuffinMan]

I recall you saying something about Palisade being scummy because he misrepresented you, right? Nero has directly misrepresented Oversoul on more than one occasion. For example, this is part of his original "case" against Oversoul in #1065:

- Something about him trying too hard? (actually this spoiler wall is golden, because Nero tries to imply that Oversoul claimed scum/third party... Holy fuck)
- Something about misc stuff (again, this spoiler wall is golden. misrep about Oversoul apparently trying to discredit the GW wagon by asking why Albert didn't claim D2, as though that wasn't a legitimate question. something about Oversoul being V/LA and still posting being scummy. some bullshit about OS's pali read. some bullshit about an admission of guilt. some bullshit about rolefishing when he wasn't even rolefishing)

I am not making any of this up. He tried to get away with saying that Oversoul claimed third party/scum, he tried to get away with other misreps like Oversoul supposedly trying to discredit the wagon on GhostWriter... Read the last to spoiler walls in that post.

His other arguments against Oversoul are no more valid.

It amazes me that you think Palisade's arguments were less valid than Nero's.

Do you fully understand why he thinks MoS is scum?

Anyway, I'm going to sleep now and I won't be on again before choosing stage begins if this gets deadlined into a Nero vs CSL match.

[The Fonz]

Palisade's arguments were the least valid possible. They were pretty much the definition of bs. I get angry just recalling them.

[Darox]

Every time Palisade posted in Kombat I wanted to beat him over the head with how nonsensical his words were.

Unvote, Vote: Nero

because they're both going in and I don't want any reset VC shenanigans.