[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Quilford]

Also you should totally kick Near-Vanilla; it sounds profoundly uninteresting.

[Vi]

@Quilford 175: Yet it has been run several times and I don't think anyone has complained.

@Hoopla: I think that's a decent idea. It's much less work for everyone as well.

[Quilford]

Vi, each required on average 8 replacements.

One even required 15. I think that's telling.

[Vi]

Vi, each required on average 8 replacements.

One even required 15. I think that's telling.

Probably because they were run as Large Normals and drew the Large Normal crowd.

[Hoopla]

I think Near Vanilla is probably scum-sided balance-wise as well. I'd be interested in seeing what Yos thinks about it. Personally, I don't mind it, but I know my tastes are different from a lot of people. If it was to be included, I feel like town would need a little something extra to help them out.

[Hoopla]

Hard Boiled

- Is partially broken. The ratio of unique confirmable roles is too high, that is makes a claiming strategy Day 1 usually always optimal, especially when you can keep the vig safely hidden and use it to get two town kills to every one scum kill, forcing scum to pick of the claimed PR's. Needs either an extra player, one less role, scum having a PR or maybe a combination of all three.

This setup is popular enough and has a strong, unique flavour about it that it shouldn't be binned, but it does need to be fixed. I'll get ABR in here to see what he wants to do with it.

Masons and Mafia

- Popuar setup but probably unfair on the town. It was discussed at the end of the last game, that adding an extra VT could be a simple solution, just to give town a bit more leeway. Rules of when and how often mafia shoot should probably be clearer too.

Masons and Monks

- In most cases, 13p is better for 2:2:9 setups as the worst-case scenario gets pushed out an extra day. The 13th player is a big help. It's less important for setups like Fire and Ice, as they have good chances of having kills stopped, but in this setup, I'd advise towards an extra VT. This isn't a bad 2:2:X setup, and I'd probably like to keep this one along with F&E&E and Fire & Ice.

Night Watch

- I suspect this setup is partially broken by having both the Watchers claim D1. This forces one scum to claim Watcher to prevent both town Watchers cross-watching. At this point, have the Role-Cop claim, and force all three Watchers to target the Role-Cop at night. This guarantees its protection, forcing scum to pick off one of the town Watchers. The Role-Cop targets the scummiest Watcher, and in 2/3 cases, it will essentially get a guilty on one of the Watchers. Meanwhile, lynches are obviously taking place from the non-claimed pool of players. For increased effectiveness, I'd also have all the non-confirmed players hypo-claim Hider targets, so in the event the Hider dies it's another confirmed scum.

This is too easily broken. Bin it.

Nightless Vengeful Mayhem

- Not a bad setup. It feels reasonably well balanced for a Nightless game - having a 2-shot killer for scum is a good way to prevent the problems of obv-townies not being able to be eliminated. I personally don't find it to be a very interesting setup, but I don't see why it couldn't be included.

Nomination Mafia

- I suspect this setup might be town-sided, but obviously this is heavily steeped in intuition. We've had the 2:5 version of this setup run during Marathon Day a lot with decent success. The wifom element is pretty fun. Maybe it'd be better to just run this as the 2:5 version - we are lacking in 7p setups...

[DarthYoshi]

Hard Boiled

- Is partially broken. The ratio of unique confirmable roles is too high, that is makes a claiming strategy Day 1 usually always optimal, especially when you can keep the vig safely hidden and use it to get two town kills to every one scum kill, forcing scum to pick of the claimed PR's. Needs either an extra player, one less role, scum having a PR or maybe a combination of all three.

This setup is popular enough and has a strong, unique flavour about it that it shouldn't be binned, but it does need to be fixed. I'll get ABR in here to see what he wants to do with it.

I agree with Hard Boiled needing an extra player--I think that is the easiest remedy for it. Honestly, the setup has a track record of being scum-sided in its results so far, and I would oppose adding a scum PR to the setup for that reason. The town PRs are numerous but fairly weak, all things considered.

[Hoopla]

The reason Hard Boiled has a scum track record is because no towns decided to try and break it (which it easily falls victim to). Played without a claiming strategy, it's probably slightly scum-sided but within the range of balanced - but claiming strategies do exist and they do help town a lot. The town PR's individual powers aren't strong in and of themselves (except for the vig) , but their main power comes from the ability to claim and confirm themselves, which is a potent tool enabling greater reach for PoE.

I think adding a scum PR is inelegant and creates more swing, but it could be solved with an extra VT

and

one less PR.

[DarthYoshi]

Faith Plus One

- This setup has four variants, so we really ought to just pick one and use it if people like it. I know it was played recently. Is there anyone here that played or read the game? What did they think of the setup? To me, it doesn't have that X-factor about it, and I think there are some people who think %-based roles are kind of meh. It feels a little scum-sided too. Again, would like others to weigh in on this one.

Speaking as the setup creator--the reason it was made was back in the spring when people discussed the brokenness of the basic 12p, I wanted to make a setup that allowed for both cop + doc roles without having to fall back on more cliched counters like maf roleblockers, macho cops, etc. Faith +1 is what resulted from that. If I had to pick one variant to go with, it'd be 1 doc + 1 ineffective doc + 1 cop. If it feels a little scum-sided, I am happy to work on that as well.

Follow The Cop... Or Not

- Doesn't seemed balanced for an 11-player game. That's one less lynch, and the Cop has two possible ways of collecting false or no results. I don't think I'd want to be town in this setup. Not a fan of this setup, but I think I remember someone liking it?

I actually hated being scum in this setup. A RB is very little firepower against a cop, doc, and tracker, and it is pretty easy for the town to win via massclaim by D2 or D3.

I like its special mechanic, though, and would like to see the setup modified rather than binned.

PEdit: If HB had to go w/out one of the PRs, I'd say based on my experience with the setup I liked the detective/psychologist role the least. May just be me, though.

[Hoopla]

Faith Plus One

- This setup has four variants, so we really ought to just pick one and use it if people like it. I know it was played recently. Is there anyone here that played or read the game? What did they think of the setup? To me, it doesn't have that X-factor about it, and I think there are some people who think %-based roles are kind of meh. It feels a little scum-sided too. Again, would like others to weigh in on this one.

Speaking as the setup creator--the reason it was made was back in the spring when people discussed the brokenness of the basic 12p, I wanted to make a setup that allowed for both cop + doc roles without having to fall back on more cliched counters like maf roleblockers, macho cops, etc. Faith +1 is what resulted from that. If I had to pick one variant to go with, it'd be 1 doc + 1 ineffective doc + 1 cop. If it feels a little scum-sided, I am happy to work on that as well.

I don't know why percentage-based roles are better than "cliche counters" though. As Quilford pointed out, there will always be times where a Cop is outed and the scum have to get rid of it, and in this setup the "counter" for scum is chance. I don't see what's appealing about a setup with active emphasis on luck.

[Yosarian2]

I think Near Vanilla is probably scum-sided balance-wise as well. I'd be interested in seeing what Yos thinks about it. Personally, I don't mind it, but I know my tastes are different from a lot of people. If it was to be included, I feel like town would need a little something extra to help them out.

Yeah, it's probably a little scum sided.

When I first made it, it was both the first game with the jail-keeper role, and the first normal 13 player setup I knew of, so I wasn't sure how to balance it.

I don't think it's too far off, though. Town has won it 2 out of 6 games it's been run. It probably doesn't need much of a change to make it balanced. How about just adding one more person, boosting it up to a 14 player game? That means that if either the doctor or the jailkeeper manage to stop one kill (which is pretty likely; about a 23% chance on night 1 alone, and higher on later nights), then that gives town another day, giving town 7 chance to find 3 scum. If neither power role ever stops a kill, then town has 6 chances to find 3 scum. The setup should probably have an even number of people for just that reason, to reward town power roles for succeeding.

I think the game it would go well in today's environment. Today's play environment is very much about finding town tells and "obv-town" people, to a much larger extent then was true a few years ago; it seems like a setup where town can keep obv-town people alive with doctors that don't have any power roles to protect would be quite interesting in today's meta.

[Hoopla]

I think that's a fine solution - it bumps it up to a Large game, but that isn't really a problem as we don't have very many good Large Open setups. I agree there should be reward for a successful save.

[Quaroath]

Hoopla, could you have the c9++ wiki updated to reflect the other threads consensus change to a day start please

[izakthegoomba]

Where is this thread on C9++ anyway?

[Quaroath]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18429

[Amrun]

Faith Plus One

- This setup has four variants, so we really ought to just pick one and use it if people like it. I know it was played recently. Is there anyone here that played or read the game? What did they think of the setup? To me, it doesn't have that X-factor about it, and I think there are some people who think %-based roles are kind of meh. It feels a little scum-sided too. Again, would like others to weigh in on this one.

Speaking as the setup creator--the reason it was made was back in the spring when people discussed the brokenness of the basic 12p, I wanted to make a setup that allowed for both cop + doc roles without having to fall back on more cliched counters like maf roleblockers, macho cops, etc. Faith +1 is what resulted from that. If I had to pick one variant to go with, it'd be 1 doc + 1 ineffective doc + 1 cop. If it feels a little scum-sided, I am happy to work on that as well.

I played in the first time this was run and I really enjoyed the set up.

I think the 2 ineffective doc version (the one I played) was really interesting because we had to figure out how to try and protect the cop correctly without BOTH doing it (and I actually was protecting the cop the night he died, but my 50% failed).

I didn't see a problem with it, balance-wise. it was fun.

[Quilford]

I didn't particularly enjoy it as scum.

Amrun, can you link me to the 'first time' you speak of?

[Hoopla]

Okay, I've decided to approve the following setups:

Masons and Mafia

(with an extra VT added)

Nomination Mafia

(it might be easier to tell if this is town-sided after a couple more plays. I think 2:5 might also be better variation of this setup)

Friends and Enemies and Enemies

(as is)

Masons and Monks

(with an extra VT added)

Near Vanilla

(with an extra VT added - now 14p so it goes into the large category)

Nightless Vengeful Mayhem

(as is)


Decided to bin the following setups;

Bad Tweed
Night Watch
Follow the Cop... Or not

Undecided on/needs more thought;

C9++
Faith Plus One
Hard Boiled

Operating Room

- Don't particularly like this setup. I talked with a couple of players about it after its first run and had mixed reactions. The town's optimal play is to just use the Doc's as a group vig or nightlynch, which isn't very novel and doesn't really seem to comply with how the setup was supposed to be played.

Pick Your Poison

- It's a good concept, but it's clear the poison choices need to be rethought. There are plenty of other PYP versions out there that are better than this one. Patrick/Ether/whoever else can weigh in on what the best one is, because I haven't seen many of them.

Polygamist Mafia

- True Love seems like a better version of the mass lover game. I don't know if this one is warranted, but I'm happy to go along with it if there are people who seem to like this version too.

Switch

- Is a really interesting concept because it gives (needed) additional power to the SK in a creative way, but it's a big risk to leave the Cop/Vig switches on when the SK is susceptible to them itself. If the SK was BP or investigation immune, it would always leave the switch active. I think there's a better way to do this concept, because in most cases town should have their roles switched off which isn't fair to them. Like the idea, but the execution is way off.

Tit For Tat

- Really like this setup. Only discussion point is whether it'd be better served as 12 or 13 player game. I'd prefer it with 13 for swing reasons.

Tread Carefully

- I'll talk about this again when we do the experimental setups. But it looks doable from a cursory scan.

Two-Fold C9

- Another super swingy 2:2:8 setup. I don't really like it, so I'll defer to what others think.

Twofold Mafia

- I like this one slightly more than the above setup, but meh. Do we need another generic 2:2:8 setup. Again, happy to listen to what others think on this one.

[Hoopla]

2:2:9 -

Approved

Fire and Ice -

Approved

Friends and Enemies -

Approved

Friends and Enemies and Enemies -

Approved

Jungle Republic -

Approved

Masons and Mafia -

Approved

Masons and Monks -

Approved

Nightless Vengeful Mayhem -

Approved

Nomination Mafia -

Approved

Weak M.D. -

Approved

White Flag (3:10) -

Approved

C9++
Faith Plus One
Hard Boiled
Operating Room
Pick Your Poison
Polygamist
Switch
Tit for Tat
Tread Carefully
Two-fold C9
Twofold Mafia

3:3:6 -

Binned

Bad Tweed -

Binned

Basic Twelve Player -

Binned

2:10 Bugs Bunny -

Binned

C/9 -

Binned

Daytalk12 -

Binned

Follow the Cop... or Not -

Binned

Friends and Enemies: Deadly Alliance -

Binned

Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy -

Binned

Mini Love -

Binned

Mountainous Mafia (2:11) -

Binned

Mountainous Multiball -

Binned

Nightless Vanilla (4:8) -

Binned

Night Watch -

Binned

Strawberry Mafia -

Binned

Unclean Mafia -

Binned

[Hoopla]

Something to think about. I'm wondering about the necessity of having 2:11 Mountainous and 3:10 White Flag. I know 2:10 used to fill slowly at the best of times and wasn't very popular, but surely White Flag is just a better of Mountainous? 2:2:9 might also be redundant given we have a couple of other 2:2:9 setups with PR's.

[Quilford]

The most fun to be had out of Two-fold C9 is probably generating the setup.

And Twofold Mafia is the ugly offspring of Carbon-14 and Fire and Ice Mafia.

[Quaroath]

Operating Room should be binned unless there is a mechanic change along the lines of odd doc # is a save, even is a kill. Would really dent group vig chances with the docs.

[Hoopla]

Operating Room should be binned unless there is a mechanic change along the lines of odd doc # is a save, even is a kill. Would really dent group vig chances with the docs.

That's just kind of luck. Seems like a very ugly solution. We already have a bunch of those luck-based night actions extravaganzas, see Tread Carefully, Medical Mafia, Mayo Clinic etc. I don't know. It's an okay idea, I guess, but doesn't look like it'd produce any interesting gameplay.

[izakthegoomba]

Thanks Quar!

[Quilford]

Also you should prolly scrap 2:11 Mtns in favour of White Flag, what with the 35.6% theoretical town winrate 'n' all. I'm too lazy to find 2:11's actual town winratem though; does anyone know of it?