[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Hoopla]

What counts as an "experienced mod"?

One game completed as a mod.

[izakthegoomba]

Oh good.

[Mr. Flay]

What counts as an "experienced mod"?

One game successfully completed as a mod.

FTFY

[Amrun]

Oh, I see. New mods only have this stipulation.

Never mind.

[Quilford]

Faith Plus One

- This setup has four variants, so we really ought to just pick one and use it if people like it. I know it was played recently. Is there anyone here that played or read the game? What did they think of the setup? To me, it doesn't have that X-factor about it, and I think there are some people who think %-based roles are kind of meh. It feels a little scum-sided too. Again, would like others to weigh in on this one.

Speaking as the setup creator--the reason it was made was back in the spring when people discussed the brokenness of the basic 12p, I wanted to make a setup that allowed for both cop + doc roles without having to fall back on more cliched counters like maf roleblockers, macho cops, etc. Faith +1 is what resulted from that. If I had to pick one variant to go with, it'd be 1 doc + 1 ineffective doc + 1 cop. If it feels a little scum-sided, I am happy to work on that as well.

I played in the first time this was run and I really enjoyed the set up.

I think the 2 ineffective doc version (the one I played) was really interesting because we had to figure out how to try and protect the cop correctly without BOTH doing it (and I actually was protecting the cop the night he died, but my 50% failed).

I didn't see a problem with it, balance-wise. it was fun.

I didn't particularly enjoy it as scum.

Amrun, can you link me to the 'first time' you speak of?

[Amrun]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52&t=17470

[Hoopla]

Approved C9++ with its new changes. Polygamist is probably good enough to be approved as well. Binning both of the Twofold setups. Binning Switch as well - although, I'd love someone to create a setup borrowing this mechanic one day.

~~

C9++ -

Approved

Faith Plus One -

Approved

Fire and Ice -

Approved

Friends and Enemies -

Approved

Friends and Enemies and Enemies -

Approved

Jungle Republic -

Approved

Masons and Mafia -

Approved

Masons and Monks -

Approved

Nightless Vengeful Mayhem -

Approved

Nomination Mafia -

Approved

Polygamist -

Approved

Tit for Tat -

Approved

Weak M.D. -

Approved

White Flag (3:10) -

Approved

Hard Boiled
Operating Room
Pick Your Poison

3:3:6 -

Binned

Bad Tweed -

Binned

Basic Twelve Player -

Binned

2:10 Bugs Bunny -

Binned

C/9 -

Binned

Daytalk12 -

Binned

Follow the Cop... or Not -

Binned

Friends and Enemies: Deadly Alliance -

Binned

Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy -

Binned

Mini Love -

Binned

Mountainous Mafia (2:11) -

Binned

Mountainous Multiball -

Binned

Nightless Vanilla (4:8) -

Binned

Night Watch -

Binned

Strawberry Mafia -

Binned

Switch -

Binned

Two-fold C9 -

Binned

Twofold Mafia -

Binned

Unclean Mafia -

Binned

[Quilford]

Sorry, Amrun: I misinterpreted you as saying you'd played two different versions of the Faith + 1 setup.

[Hoopla]

Where's Magua? Magua...

Do you think Tit For Tat would be a better setup with an extra VT and a town JK/Deputy and a mafia Role-Cop/back-up JK? It would certainly reduce the swing you were talking about.

[Magua]

I was busy!

Spoiler: Doing stuff...

I would switch the JK/Rolecop alignments, yes. The problem still remains that, normally, if you lynch the Mafia Rolecop, you're all "Yay, we lynched the Rolecop, go us!" but now you're all, "We lynched the Rolecop *and* got one on our side!"

That is, if the Mafia Rolecop is lynched D1, and the Mafia do not shoot the Deputy or the Jailkeeper N1, then they've pretty much lost. (This, I feel, is the same situation as now, if the Mafia Jailkeeper is lynched D1)

I think the overall setup might be more interesting as enablers -- that is:

-Town
6 Vanilla Townies
1 Rolecop-Enabler (if he dies, Rolecop can no longer rolecop)
1 Jailkeeper
1 Vigilante

- Mafia
1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper-Enabler (if he dies, Jailkeeper can no longer jailkeep)
1 Goon

But then that's a different setup altogether. There may already be a setup that's more like that. I dunno.

But back on track.

- I approve of switching Rolecop and Jailkeeper (and associated Backup) alignments.
- I don't support moving to 13p unless you trade the Vigilante in for a VT. That is, 10:3 is 4 mislynches to town loss (town picks 4 to die, mafia picks 3). With a vig, even one who constantly misvigs, town picks 5 to die, mafia picks 2.

[Amrun]

^Wouldn't optimal strategy be for rolecop enabler to claim day 1 and vig to shoot him n1?

[Hoopla]

I like the idea of Enabler-based setups, but it probably is going too far away from what Tit For Tat is - maybe we can use that idea for a new setup. Town and scum are 2 wins each in the setup, so going to 13 probably isn't necessary. In 3:9 Mini Normal setups with a vig, towns had close to a 50% winrate, which is in stark contrast to the overall winrate. I think keeping it at 12 and switching the role alignments is probably the best solution.

[Quaroath]

Wiki for C9++ needs updating if the changes are approved. Still lists night start, etc etc

[Hoopla]

Wiki for C9++ needs updating if the changes are approved. Still lists night start, etc etc

Yeah, I'll do the wiki for C9++ and the others tonight.

[Vi]

Hay Hoopihoop.

Cult C9



Dethy^2

F11

FAC688

Impotence Mafia

Lyncher Mafia (should we have an IRC setups subcategory?)

Magic Train (or rather a "Not for Forum Mafia" subcategory)

[Magua]

^Wouldn't optimal strategy be for rolecop enabler to claim day 1 and vig to shoot him n1?

Maybe. I don't think I'd go with that strategy personally, but others might. It simply seems a waste to take a vig and use them to kill off what is essentially a confirmed town.

[Vi]

Open Setup Certification Group Approved

Hoopla, what would you like to happen to this page?

Russian Roulette Mafia (again, an IRC-style setup - it IS Open, but I just don't see this hitting the rotation outside "Experimental")

SS3 (as above)

Too Much Scum (this should be an easy one; I'm just going quickly at the moment)

Trendy and Subversive

Vanilla Nightless (this page can probably be deleted or replaced with something better)

Vigilante Mafia

[Patrick]

I was asked to weigh in on the Pick your Poison setup. I've run 4 of these, each of them also allowed town to vote during day 0 on what abilities scum would be given, but I don't know what standard of normality is being used in this queue. If you're looking for simplicity, I'd replace the cop with something weaker, maybe a vig or even one with limited shots if people see a full one as too powerful. If the choice was between doctor/roleblocker/vig, would people consider putting a vig in as scum? If not, maybe a 2 shot vig?

Small variations are possible, like allowing scum to double up on the same role if you're confident on the balance. Ironically, I think as I got better at balancing the PYP setups, they became less fun because town agonised for so long over what roles to give the scum that half of them became apathetic before day 1 had even started. I think the best kind of setup for open queue would be just scum choosing between 3 balanced roles and possibly being allowed to give town two of the same role if they want. That gives them a more challenging decision that the current version without making it into too big a deal.

[Hoopla]

Oh god, more setups. Thanks Vi...

They all look gross.

[Hoopla]

Patrick, I feel like for a 13p Pick Your Poison setup, a random breakdown of semi-strong PR's is better balanced in a 3-1 ratio than 2-0. The latter places too much emphasis on too few roles -isolating power like that can cause swing, as one poor wagon D1 outs the PR to deprive the town of half its allotted power. Having it separated across more players is a bit more stable and prevents swing.

Want to help me make a 13p version that fits that criteria? Maybe pregame mafia pick 3 roles from 4-5 for town. Day 0 town votes for 1 role from 2-3 to give to scum. Night 0, all selected roles (town and scum) get randomised and given to people. Day 1, the game begins. What do you think?

[IceGuy]

Russian Roulette Mafia (again, an IRC-style setup - it IS Open, but I just don't see this hitting the rotation outside "Experimental")

SS3 (as above)

Too Much Scum (this should be an easy one; I'm just going quickly at the moment)

Trendy and Subversive

Vanilla Nightless (this page can probably be deleted or replaced with something better)

Vigilante Mafia

Gotta bin 'em all.

[Vi]

To be fair, Trendy and Subversive was popular for a while, and while it's probably just me Russian Roulette Mafia doesn't sound like total drudgery (at least with fixes to the mechanic).

Also, don't forget post 239.

[Patrick]

I forgot it would be 13 players now =)

Sounds good to me, let's work it out.

[IceGuy]

To be fair, Trendy and Subversive was popular for a while, and while it's probably just me Russian Roulette Mafia doesn't sound like total drudgery (at least with fixes to the mechanic).

While I agree the mechanics (backup roles without the normal ones/daykills with ascending probabilities) might be something to think about, the setups themselves should not be kept around. Salvaging them would mean completely redesigning them anyway, so I'm in favor of binning them and, if somebody has an idea how to incorporate the mechanic into a good setup, letting that setup go through reviewing.

Also, don't forget post 239.

They also should be binned.

[Vi]

Also, don't forget post 239.

They also should be binned.

F11 should be binned?