[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Hoopla]

Vi, one of the variables is 2:7 mountainous. I think we have enough evidence to suggest that only the Cop/Doc setup is balanced.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

2:7 with a cop isn't balanced?

[Hoopla]

2:7 with a cop isn't balanced?

F11 stats:

2 Goons, 1 Cop: 53 Mafia wins, 29 Town wins (35% winrate for town)
2 Goons, 1 Doc: 50 Mafia wins, 32 Town wins (39% winrate for town)
1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Cop, 1 Doc: 47 Mafia wins, 38 Town wins (45% winrate for town)
1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker: 49 Mafia wins, 23 Town wins (32% winrate for town)

[Hoopla]

I forgot it would be 13 players now =)

Sounds good to me, let's work it out.

Tracker, 2-Shot Vig, Jailkeeper, 1-Shot Cop, Innocent Child (PM version) - scum picks three of these for town with no double-ups.

Encryptor, Role Cop, 2-Shot Redirector - town then gives scum one of these roles. Encryptor might not be on the same level as the other two, so maybe something else - or weaken the other two?

[IceGuy]

Also, don't forget post 239.

They also should be binned.

F11 should be binned?

Yes. It's unbalanced and we have 2of4 as a worthy successor.

[Hoopla]

It stands to reason if 2:7 with a Cop or 2:7 with a Doc is unbalanced, that the same variations in the 2of4 setup is unbalanced also - especially given that scum has a Role Cop in each variable.

If 2:7 with a Cop produces a 35% winrate for town, it should be worse if that same setup now has a Role Cop.

[IceGuy]

It stands to reason if 2:7 with a Cop or 2:7 with a Doc is unbalanced, that the same variations in the 2of4 setup is unbalanced also - especially given that scum has a Role Cop in each variable.

If 2:7 with a Cop produces a 35% winrate for town, it should be worse if that same setup now has a Role Cop.

For some reason, I misremembered 2of4 was 2:9. Oh well.

[zoraster]

It stands to reason if 2:7 with a Cop or 2:7 with a Doc is unbalanced, that the same variations in the 2of4 setup is unbalanced also - especially given that scum has a Role Cop in each variable.

If 2:7 with a Cop produces a 35% winrate for town, it should be worse if that same setup now has a Role Cop.

Maybe. But a role cop in such a quick game isn't likely to be too much of use. And now in 2of4, the scum won't know whether they have to worry about a doctor protecting or not. In F11, they could see a cop claim and then look at whether they had a RB or not. Now, they have to take a risk of the cop being protected.

[Quaroath]

Not a big fan if scum in c9++ knowing exactly how much power town has by their roles. They also know if there is an sk, and the sk knows the setup. Part of the appeal on the old format was neither side knew exactly how much power was in the setup. At best a general idea.

[Ether]

Are we assuming that more experienced players would fare exactly the same as a horde of flaky newbies?

[Hoopla]

Are we assuming that more experienced players would fare exactly the same as a horde of flaky newbies?

So, you think more experienced players are better at playing town than scum?

I don't know, though. It might make a slight difference, but the average open isn't exactly teeming with high densities of top quality players.

[Ether]

It's more accurate to say that I think inexperienced players are worse at playing town than scum. The very very basics are harder to pick up.

[Magua]

Not a big fan if scum in c9++ knowing exactly how much power town has by their roles. They also know if there is an sk, and the sk knows the setup. Part of the appeal on the old format was neither side knew exactly how much power was in the setup. At best a general idea.

Serial killer always knew the town power in the setup based on what powers they were given. That part is unchanged.

Mafia always knew within 1 the town power (2 goons + Godfather? 5T or 4T). The change here is that they probably know which of those it is, and whether there is a serial killer or not. Which isn't exactly ideal, but not a serious issue, IMO.

[izakthegoomba]

And they're even worse as Town PRs. And SEs and ICs are likely more use to scum than town.

Which is, IMO, where the Newbie setup balance issue stems from.

[Mr. Flay]

And they're even worse as Town PRs. And SEs and ICs are likely more use to scum than town.

Which is, IMO, where the Newbie setup balance issue stems from.

While I agree with you on the utility of experience, that doesn't stop F11 from being, a problematic setup.think of it as a failed evolutionary branch of C9 - whereas C9++ explicitly goes for balanced variations, F11 has two variants that are not fun for one faction or the other.

[ConSpiracy]

I still think Trendy and Subversive shouldn't be binned. i like the setup quite a bit and I'd rather have it tweaked than binned. What if 2 extra townies get in?

[Hoopla]

Okay, fixed up the wiki for Tit For Tat and C9++. Didn't really know what to do with Faith Plus One, but it's probably close enough to balanced and a couple of people like it, so I guess the whim of mods and players can determine if it's successful - there's nothing lost by approving it. At the same time, I'm removing 2:2:9 Mountainous from the catalogue - I'm not binning it, but it shouldn't be in regular rotation because we have a bunch of 2:2:X setups that will fill instead of it - if an experienced mod wants to run it, they can.

Don't know what to do with Hard Boiled or Operating Room yet. Where's Patrick? I need his help for Pick Your Poison...

[Xalxe]

On the topic of Pick Your Poison, during my recently completed game one of the players pointed out that of the three times it had been run, the scum had never picked cop; it was always doc/RB. Is there some way we can force scum to give town something more helpful?

[Hoopla]

On the topic of Pick Your Poison, during my recently completed game one of the players pointed out that of the three times it had been run, the scum had never picked cop; it was always doc/RB. Is there some way we can force scum to give town something more helpful?

Yeah, the current version doesn't really work. My suggestion was something like this;

Tracker, 2-Shot Vig, Jailkeeper, 1-Shot Cop, Innocent Child (PM version) - scum picks three of these for town with no double-ups.

Encryptor, Role Cop, 2-Shot Redirector - town then gives scum one of these roles. Encryptor might not be on the same level as the other two, so maybe something else - or weaken the other two?

So, town get three roles and scum gets one, which seems a lot more balanced than 2 and 0.

[Xalxe]

/idiot

What's an Encryptor?

[Hoopla]

Daytalk enabler - while that player is alive for scum, they get to have daytalk.

[Xalxe]

I like those, though I think I can pick out which ones will take the place of doc/RB. But making town give scum a PR is good. Not that it matters much, but do scum know who gets their power role?

[Hoopla]

How it will work, is pregame scum pick three of these roles for town to have: Tracker, JK, 2-Shot Vig, IC, 1-Shot Cop.

Then Day 0 begins, town vote for a role to give scum: Encryptor, Role Cop, 2-Shot Redirector.

Then Night 0 all the roles selected get randomly distributed amongst their appropriate alignment.

Then Day 1 begins with the setup finalised.

[Xalxe]

Ah, so town doesn't know who gets them either. Interesting...

I'd run it again. A+ (unless Patrick says no, in which case you get a C).

[Hoopla]

I think that selection of town roles is balanced enough - they all seem roughly similar in power. I wouldn't know which three to select as scum.

The scum roles might not be as balanced - I know a lot of people don't value daytalk as highly as a full Role Cop for example.