New York 138: OxyMoron Mafia :: Game Over!

[mastin2]

Sure. Except for the whole "doubt myself and stay up until 5 am and hammer the last scum on the day of deadline in lylo" part.

It'd help if you voted Ironhead--he's only at 3 votes, versus Fat's 5. More we get on Ironhead, more likely we can leverage votes to him.

[ObliviousDruidMuncher]

Mod, is this true?

(Foolish Fool and Projectmatt both seemed to express interest in staying last I checked, even though they posted a little over three days ago.)

I prodded them after 48 hours of no posting, and it's been 48 hours since the prod. Yes, it's true (check the rules). There's no reason you can't post once every two days, and if there is, tell me about it.

[Oversoul]

VOTE: Ironhead

I really should have investigated Iron/Fat. Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20

Tog, why the rolefish? I received a result of negative.

[mastin2]

Hurry!

Quicklynch Ironhead so we go into night with two inactive scum slots! Nobody will be around to send in a night-kill!

[TOGTFO]

Rolefish? I see....

I was under the impression that your role was already stated and if scum was smart, they would want to kill you regardless. Is there truly a problem with answering my question? By saying you received a result of negative, does that mean you were not blocked or that your result will clear FF as being gun free?

[projectmatt]

Sorry, was taking care of a kid all day today. I should have free time tomorrow to post my reads and explain the thoughts I don't really have.

[David Xanatos]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ironhead

I just want the day to end.

[fatlikepig]

Sorry Mr Mod. D:

I still feel unsure about Ironhea. I'll take some more time to digest this all later, but I think Matt is the better lynch.

Vote: projectmatt

[Nobody Special]

Nobody Special, I am *always* stingy with my vote.

I'll look into that.




Ironhead: Defend yourself against mastin's allegation, please.

[mastin2]

I kinda already know what he'll be saying, though.

[Nobody Special]

Well, yeah, but you've been here the entire time. I haven't.


(Yes, I'm making everyone else do my work for me. BUT I'm [hopefully] asking the right questions, so.)

[redFF]

Sorry Mr Mod. D:

I still feel unsure about Ironhea. I'll take some more time to digest this all later, but I think Matt is the better lynch.

Vote: projectmatt

this is really weird.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: Iron

- Changed my mind about Fat, I don't think he's scum with anyone but Iron.

L-2, I think.

[Ironhead]

Ironhead: Defend yourself against mastin's allegation, please.

It hinges upon me wanting to mislynch fatlikepig. While that may have appeared to be plausible yesterday, today I have insisted that fatlikepig is not a good candidate -- a statement I still stand by. mastin2 cherry-picked a quote wherein I listed Otolia, lewarcher, and fatlikepig as containing at least two scum. It was a rather obvious conclusion (although mastin2 portrays it as a clever double-bus; I suggest checking my meta to gauge my level of cleverness), and since Otolia

was

scum I could safely conclude that fatlikepig probably

is not

. Furthermore, one of mastin2's gems is that scum would hop on lewarcher's wagon -- a conclusion with which I agree to some degree -- but I recall being resistant to his lynch. Like fatlikepig, I preferred the Otolia wagon that day. I also object to his characterization that I am trying to set up him and others for mislynches.

Having said all that in my own defense, I also want to laud mastin2 for taking the time to finally deliver on his promises of analysis and activity. If my defense is not persuasive, I welcome continued pressure as I am comfortable that a sustained inquiry will acquit me. I also continue my prosecution of Xeras, who still appears to me to be scummiest today.

[mastin2]

Ah, so you ARE going for the "mislynch Mastin" path. In-thread, I knew you'd have one of two reactions.

1: Say there is very little to defend against from me. (Kinda sorta true, considering I haven't built the case, yet. ) But that I am now acting as typical town Mastin, annoying as that may be. This is the path you would take if you had given up on trying to mislynch me, and accepted that it was no longer possible to achieve. Logically, this was a viable option, since you have seen my play before, and are aware that I am more likely to think you are town if you essentially shrug off my attack. Additionally, having seen my play before, going down this path could potentially have turned me into an ally. (I might be forgetting a few of the details which made this a more logical choice, but you get the idea.)

2: Point out exactly what's wrong and try to point out exactly how full of holes my logic is. The obvious reason for choosing this path is, of course, to try and make me look less credible. If done well, at worst, it gives you extra time to live. At best, it makes me a suspect in the eyes of others. Logically, I can see why you thought it was a good idea to go down this path: you historically know my logic to be poor, and have access to me saying things which can grant you an advantage. For instance, you could try and make me look less credible at the cost of me never moving off of you. (Which it kinda looks like you're attempting to do.) In a battle of pure logic, you know yourself to be superior to me. Additionally, it makes logical sense to keep me as a suspect--if you accepted that I was town, that is one more mislynch you must shut down. Perhaps not permanently due to your "everyone's a suspect" meta (annoyingly null), but at least for a day or two, in which time I can devastate your scumteam, potentially, something you wish to avoid. (Like with the first, I'm probably forgetting a few details which make this position stronger logically than it seems right now, but you can still get the idea.)

Unfortunately for you, you chose the wrong path. Since you're forgetting one vital detail: I'm Mastin.



Out-of-thread, I'm going to assume since the neighborhood apparently has daytalk, the scum do as well.

And that your in-thread post has an equivalent QT post. Now, I'm not sure which of these you posted, but I'm betting you said something along the lines of one of these three:

1: "How. HOW DOES HE DO IT?!? When he has not a single scrap of credible evidence, when he has no conclusive logical proof, how does he manage to somehow figure it out?!?"

2: "HOW CAN HE READ THROUGH MY DISGUISE?!? I've spent endless hours perfecting my mask, putting up the most logical viewpoint I could muster, yet he manages to see through me and my true intentions. HOW?!?"

3: "How is it that one of our planned mislynches just managed to nail us?"

They all have the same answer: because I think differently than you.

Because I think differently, because I use things which aren't concrete, because I use things which are invisible on the surface, I can form conclusions which can devastate a scumteam. For instance, WormyKrew and Alduskkel fell to my wrath, despite my extremely poor logic. (I've additionally toppled Vollkan, and would've toppled Maxous as well had David listened to my scumlist rather than his own reads. )

Because I don't think logically, your mask of logic is absolutely seethrough to me. It helps that I was in a similar situation to you--this is your first scumgame, no? Breaking a solid streak of town, correct? Replacing into a situation which has become helpless? Yeah, I just had that in Flash Mafia 3, breaking my solid streak of town (in particular, VT) PMs. Because I've been through it, I know how people in said situation feel.

Additionally, you answered my questions. In much the way I was anticipating. What you couldn't have known (nor could I have known, either, until recently) is that by answering the questions about how you'd play as scum/town and what your plan was, you gave me your thought process and a view into your intentions. So, I can read your mind.

As for the third, that's because I've discovered now that I play better as a replacement than I do as an original player. "...But you're an original player in this game..." Technically, yes. I have been a player since the beginning. In practice, no. I was last on something like page five, active lurking just enough to avoid being replaced in this game. I was a dead slot, someone giving absolutely nothing. Like a newbie about to be replaced by a vet.

Effectively, I replaced myself. Reading 60 pages from scratch, with only glimpses into the future game. It effectively made me a replacement in this game. And as everyone knows, replacements tend to play better than who they replace, since they have a new, fresh, interesting perspective on the game and can work with material already established and come in with no personal biases already formed.

Because I looked at things in a way you couldn't have anticipated, I managed to see what you hadn't thought of, and from this all, I have nailed you, Ironhead.

(Though I must thank you. The realization that I play better as a replacement is new to me, as of this moment. That means I'll probably be playing more as a replacement in the future, to test this "mastin can nail the scum instantly upon replacing" theory I have.)



I'll point out how wrong Ironhead's defense is when I get around to making the case against all three. Though I really shouldn't need to; Ironhead's obvious scum at this point.

[projectmatt]

Mastin
1: "How. HOW DOES HE DO IT?!? When he has not a single scrap of credible evidence, when he has no conclusive logical proof, how does he manage to somehow figure it out?!?"

2: "HOW CAN HE READ THROUGH MY DISGUISE?!? I've spent endless hours perfecting my mask, putting up the most logical viewpoint I could muster, yet he manages to see through me and my true intentions. HOW?!?"

3: "How is it that one of our planned mislynches just managed to nail us?"

.I think your ego might be kinda clouding the way you are playing. With that being said, I have trouble seeing "this" specific quote coming from a player who is sided with the mafia, since it seems to be a non-faked attempt to boost your own ego because you believe you have caught the mafia. I honestly don't understand the case on Iron, in fact, I believe he towntold at least a little bit before, but I'm willing to listen. I can address your "case" on me, however..

Your reads are further solidified by me being scum. If I am town the foundation for them seems to crumble, and that's the problem. In post #1480 your reads are strengthened by the way I address people, which is intensely bothersome.

and to address post #1481,

Mastin
He addresses Johhog as if he knows he will flip town, despite having Johhog as a strong scumread. "Stop being a jerk." doesn't translate to "I think you're scum." You NEVER think a scum player is a jerk, you think they're scum pushing an agenda. "Stop being a jerk" translates to you think they're TOWN, who you think is being, well, a jerk. There's also his part about singling out a single one of my reads. Why just Johhog? Why not any of my other reads? Why specifically page thirteen, when I had a Johhog townread from pretty much Johhog's first post?


Yeah. My vote's still on Matt, right?

I had believed that Johnhog was being a "jerk" no matter what alignment he was, although I will admit I just started to get angry about how much of a douche he was acting and it made my posts seem more bitter. Jerk doesn't equate to scum or town, it equates to a jerk.

And what other read would you rather I address? I had barely gotten anything from y9u all game and I wanted you to explain the town read, especially when I had gotten conflicting tells.

And for post #1483...

And stuff like this reinforces the point--he didn't want Johhog dead because he thought Johhog was scum (it was painfully obvious he was town, and I regret not being around to push my opinion on this harder to stop his obvious mislynch), he wanted Johhog dead on policy.

Kinda like he didn't like Bomberman, who he mysteriously read as town, despite the fact that the two situations were similar.

He lead a lynch on Johhog, on policy. Because he knew Johhog would flip town.

There's a reason I'm going to be building a case on him once I've caught up. There's a reason he's been my vote.

I explained in-depth why I believed John was scum, if you're reading the thread you would see my case on him. That post is simply a blatant lie. I didn't want Bomberman because I thought his rage in replacing out was town, it wasn't "mysterious" and it worries me deeply that you feel the need to exaggerate what happened in order to better fit your mindset. I am having trouble telling if it's because you're scum or because you really want to be right.

Real reads coming soon. I've been having some busy days lately but I swear I'll get the time to 100% contribute.

[Oversoul]

I honestly don't understand the case on Iron, in fact, I believe he towntold at least a little bit before, but I'm willing to listen. I can address your "case" on me, however..

That point is moot considering townies can scumtell when they aren't scum.

Also, it is about Mastin wanting to be right. He has an inferiority complex and wants to make up for all of his past mistakes in order to be absolved. (i say this with love, Mastin)

[Ironhead]

Delusions of grandeur

As I read this lengthy post, I kept picturing Wallace Shawn as the Sicilian from the movie

The Princess Bride

: Never go in with a mastin when DEATH is on the line! Ironhead, best me in a battle of wits?

Inconceivable!

Am in an airport right now about to board my plane, and thus don't have time for a logic-based response, but will take another look tonight or tomorrow.

[mastin2]

Heh. Nice try, Matt, but you can't have the best of both worlds.

After I posted what Ironhead could do as scum, you tried to divide yourself 50/50--defending against me, while going out of your way to say that I'm town.

Which, of course, just makes things worse.


It's funny. The more Matt and Ironhead post, the more they continue to be scum. You'll see what I mean when I get around to making a case. (I'm a bit busy tonight, so probably not now. We'll see if I can get started tomorrow.)

[evilpacman18]

Mastin were you in the game I played with Ironhead?

[redFF]

whaddya know, somebody actually delivered on a promise. colour me impressed.

[mastin2]

Indeed I was, Evil.

You yourself noted how Iron was playing differently in this game.

"I was the cop in that game." was all it took you to be convinced?

[mastin2]

Compare and contrast, me.

I was the doctor in that game.

Yet I'm not playing any differently. (Well, now that I've gotten my head in the game, anyway.)

It doesn't work as an excuse.

[Ironhead]

There's a lot here and it is all over the place, so bear with me:

Ah, so you ARE going for the "mislynch Mastin" path.

Strawman. I clearly pointed out that I was not, and without any proof to the contrary you insist I am and then attack upon this premise.

This is the path you would take if you had given up on trying to mislynch me, and accepted that it was no longer possible to achieve.

I question the validity of both the assumption and the conclusion. Nobody Special requested that I address your case and I think it is fair that I oblige this request (I certainly do not want to be party to intentional inactivity, in any case). My response was not a riposte to you, but a redress to Nobody Special. So the assumption that I oughtn't defend myself, and that by doing so I am trying to mislynch you, is deeply flawed.

2: Point out exactly what's wrong and try to point out exactly how full of holes my logic is. The obvious reason for choosing this path is, of course, to try and make me look less credible.

I again question your conclusion. As noted above, my defense was in response to Nobody Special's request; the reasoning for doing this includes steering the town away from a mislynch, sustaining scum-hunting, avoiding inactivity, etc. It certainly does not include trying to make you look less credible. You are accusing me of resorting to argumentum ad hominem, which is itself an argumentum ad hominem (you are not responding to my argument, but to my motives -- which you insist is "making you look less credible").

Out-of-thread, I'm going to assume since the neighborhood apparently has daytalk, the scum do as well.

This is an interesting comment; I do not recall anyone anywhere announcing that neighborhood has daytalk, and I do not recall mastin2 being a part of the neighborhood. How does he infer that scum have daytalk?

Perhaps this is a scumslip; and by my pointing this out, mastin2's claims of me trying to target him become a self-fulfilling prophecy. mastin2 is not high on my list of scum suspects, but if he cannot logically demonstrate how he reached this conclusion I think he will quickly rise to the top.

Additionally, you answered my questions. In much the way I was anticipating. What you couldn't have known (nor could I have known, either, until recently) is that by answering the questions about how you'd play as scum/town and what your plan was, you gave me your thought process and a view into your intentions. So, I can read your mind.

I dare say that perhaps you are fitting the conclusion to fit your own preconceived ideas, based on the answers you received to your questions. At the risk of pointing out the obvious (which may be obvious to everyone else, but apparently not to you) -- scum can and almost certainly will lie on your questionnaire. I cannot imagine a scum would tell you exactly how he would play and then play that hand as he announced.

It is far more likely that a townie will play his hand faithfully and honestly, and you will misinterpret those actions to fit what you think he would do as scum, based on his answers to your questionnaire -- because, remember, a townie is not intentionally trying to mold his actions to appear townish.

...

I hope I've adequately addressed your case -- it is tough, because you are meandering a bit and I'm not really sure what is going on inside your head. Tough to appeal to logic when, as you've cheerfully admitted, you don't employ logic.

In any event, keep the questions coming, I'm quite certain I can demonstrate that your suspicions are mislaid. And for Pete's sake, don't try to quicklynch me, as you agitated for in #1503. Give me a chance to claim -- it can only help the town.

[fatlikepig]

I think there was some talk about there being a neighbourhood QT when hiplop claimed, Ironhead. At least, that's what I think he's talking about.