[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Meransiel]

You should probably allow mafia to collect letters from the townies they kill.

[izakthegoomba]

That would definitely add to the swingyness. Probably too much so.

[Meransiel]

Mafia is already weaker than town, so it's not important.

[cjdrum]

I think it's a great mechanic idea, but more suited to a Theme Game queue. Open games are great for simplicity yet interestingness - this is interesting, but changes the game of Mafia completely.

I mean, heaps of people could most likely pick up Jungle Republic or MNiE as their first or second game, but this is just crazy for that sort of thing.

[Hoopla]

I think it's a great mechanic idea, but more suited to a Theme Game queue. Open games are great for simplicity yet interestingness - this is interesting, but changes the game of Mafia completely.

I agree - it's probably not suited to be run in Central Park, but this is an open setup and I wanna discuss it.

[izakthegoomba]

Still not sure about it. I think it's the kind of game that will need to be tested, because both how people play it and chance will make a massive amount of difference.

[izakthegoomba]

EBWOP: like, really thoroughly tested, but I'm not sure how you do these things.

[theplague42]

I really like this letter idea. You could run it next marathon weekend to test it.

[callforjudgement]

I think I found a partial breaking strategy in SS3 (although the expected value is still 50% because it's symmetrical between the scum and VT, so the scum can play identically to a VT and get a 50% win chance no matter what): the supersaint is basically equivalent to a reveal-any-time Innocent Child, as with two supersaint claims, everyone unvotes, then the (now-confirmed) VT votes for one and the other hammers, which leads to a town win no matter which way round it happens (and anyone who refuses to follow that strategy is claiming scum). Thus, as supersaint is not a possible fakeclaim for scum, the supersaint can confirm themselves at any time via claiming.

Because the SS is confirmable, optimal strategy is for nobody to claim, then for the players to scumhunt amongst themselves, FoSing rather than voting. Once someone has two FoSes on them, they claim; if they claim VT they die (leading to a town loss if the VT looked scummiest and win if the scum looked scummiest), if they claim SS and are counterclaimed town wins, if they claim SS and are not counterclaimed, the SS gets to pick which of the other two are scummier. Still 50% EV because of the symmetry, but if the town form a list of scummiest -> least scummy, they win if the scum is above the VT on the list, which isn't a ridiculous thing for the town to manage. At least, the strategy, AFAICT, gets the town's winchance in practical games as high as possible.

(Open) SS3 mostly isn't a played setup here anyway, so this is mostly academic, but it's documented and may be played on scumchat, so I thought I'd spill the breaking strategy here for reference purposes.

(I'm currently trying to find a breaking strategy at the other end of the micro/large scale, in Picking Simplicity. I think a modified follow-the-cop strategy is viable, but haven't proved it yet; it depends a lot on how quickly the SK can be effectively brought under town's control, which I think might even be possible day 1 with the right strategy and optimal play on all sides.)

[Hoopla]

Tic-Tac-Toe Mafia

Mafia

(4)

2 "X" Goons
2 "O" Goons

Town

(9)

4-5 "X" Townies
4-5 "O" Townies

~~

- 13 players, Daystart
- Special Mechanic: if three players in a row die (of any alignment) of the same letter the town makes a tic-tac-toe and wins.
- Mafia have a factional Governor ability where any lynch on a townie can be prevented - however, the mafia need to sub one of their own players in place of that townie. This ability has to be used before the townie flips.
- Mafia have daytalk
- Mafia can choose to no-kill
- 4 "X" Townies and 4 "O" Townies - the 9th townie's letter is randomised (50/50)
- Town win if they eliminate all the scum or make a tic-tac-toe

[Amrun]

Interesting... Is the governor ability x-shot?

I'd like to see this run. I feel like there might be kinks to work out but I don't see them yet. My initial thought was town-sided, but after thinking about, I'm not sure.

One thing: would town's optimal strategy be to claim letters from the start? (Probably not.) Alternatively, would this game be broken by townies one at a time sacrificing themselves if they have the right letter?

[Hoopla]

Interesting... Is the governor ability x-shot?

I'd like to see this run. I feel like there might be kinks to work out but I don't see them yet. My initial thought was town-sided, but after thinking about, I'm not sure.

One thing: would town's optimal strategy be to claim letters from the start? (Probably not.) Alternatively, would this game be broken by townies one at a time sacrificing themselves if they have the right letter?

The Governor ability is unlimited to prevent town massclaiming or townies sacrificing themself. Remember, the nightkill counts in the sequence of kills, so it won't be every day that the town has a chance to win with a correct lynch. Theoretically, if the town is on 2-in-a-row and needs an X lynch to win, an X townie could volunteer to be lynched to force a scum lynch that day (or be an O bluffing and force scum to gamble on not Governing). If scum Governs, they have a prob-X townie they can use to break O sequences at night.

I think there might be a couple of things I'm not fully taking into consideration, but I can't see anything too damaging to the setup yet.

[Thomith]

Wait so how do mafia win? If the town can no longer tic tac toe?

[Hoopla]

The way mafia normally win - when they have a majority. In this instance, they need three mislynches before being eliminated or tic-tac-toe'd.

[Thomith]

Interesting concept then, i think it could work well.

[Meransiel]

Tic-Tac-Toe Mafia

Mafia

(4)

2 "X" Goons
2 "O" Goons

Town

(9)

4-5 "X" Townies
4-5 "O" Townies

~~

- 13 players, Daystart
- Special Mechanic: if three players in a row die (of any alignment) of the same letter the town makes a tic-tac-toe and wins.
- Mafia have a factional Governor ability where any lynch on a townie can be prevented - however, the mafia need to sub one of their own players in place of that townie. This ability has to be used before the townie flips.
- Mafia have daytalk
- Mafia can choose to no-kill
- 4 "X" Townies and 4 "O" Townies - the 9th townie's letter is randomised (50/50)
- Town win if they eliminate all the scum or make a tic-tac-toe

Nominated

This is pure awesome.

[Quilford]

2nd

I like it. A lot.

[izakthegoomba]

3rd

I REALLY want to play this.

[Hoopla]

I fear it's slightly town-sided. One thing that does need to be fixed, is giving Mafia the ability to sub one of their players in on ANY lynch, not just townies. As a mafia player subbed in confirms that player as town and forces scum's NK. This hopefully gives scum a bit more control.

[Meransiel]

One thing that does need to be fixed, is giving Mafia the ability to sub one of their players in on ANY lynch, not just townies.

Well obviously. Otherwise governed townies are confirmed.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

So? If scum can govern whomever, then the town can't achieve anything on those Days; the whole Day might as well be replaced by an automated scum death.

[Hoopla]

Scum can let townies die if they're only on 1-in-a-row or want to take a risk on 2-in-a-row. It's also dangerous for scum to get down to one scum, because if they do and there's an opening for a lynch to make 3-in-a-row, the right letter can be sacrificed without scum being able to prevent it.

[Thomith]

Maybe give the town a power that each night they have to guess who the player is the scum will sub on, if they are right the lynch still goes ahead.
Or give scum a rolecop so they know some x and o townies.

[Kublai Khan]

Strongly town-sided actually..

At some point, "X" or "O" townies will fall over themselves to get lynched for the tic-tac-toe lynch-win.

[Thomith]

which is why a rolecop could help as they could maybe break streaks by killing an O with a 1 or 2 X streak.