[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Magua]

I see no reason why town would not give the scum the Encryptor each and every time. Rolecop essentially doubles the chance that scum will hit a PR rather than a VT after N1, which is pretty important in an open game.

I would replace it with 2-shot Janitor (scum learns roles kind).

For Redirector, it should be specified whether the tracker/cop know that they've been redirected -- eg, "Guilty" vs " Magua is guilty", or "Your target visited hoopla" vs "Magua visited hoopla"

[Hoopla]

Janitors are really nasty - I hate no-reveal or partial no-reveal games. What else have you got?

[Magua]

I hate redirectors, so we're even. =P Maybe it's my formative experience, but I enjoy janitors in Open Games because they cut down on the necessity of mafia *having* to counterclaim a PR or die.

Other possibilities:
Roleblocker
Investigation Immune (both Tracker and Cop)
1-shot PGO

Ideally, of course, there should be no option that town will *always* take, and there should be no option that town would *never* take.

[Xalxe]

Scum PGO? With a vig possibility? Interesting gambits ensue.

But I think a 1-shot Janitor wouldn't hurt balance. Allows scum a safe fakeclaim (provided you don't derp around and use it on a claimed PR).

[Ether]

All of the town power roles are pretty weak; I think a setup combining any of them would work fine with three goons. So my first inclination is to downgrade the other two roles, even though I know that doesn't really fit in with the "poison" theme.

[izakthegoomba]

PGO?

[Hoopla]

All of the town power roles are pretty weak; I think a setup combining any of them would work fine with three goons. So my first inclination is to downgrade the other two roles, even though I know that doesn't really fit in with the "poison" theme.

I think I agree - three goons might be a sufficient fit. It skips the deliberating Day 0 phase that sometimes bogs down the start of the game for town and it stays truer to the original version (in the sense that scum don't get a role). That seems like a simpler solution than trying to find a balance of equally weak scum roles.

[izakthegoomba]

But what's a PGO?

[callforjudgement]

PGO = Paranoid Gun Owner = player who passively kills anyone who targets them.

[izakthegoomba]

Oh, right. I knew what one was, I just didn't recognise the abbreviation.

[shaft.ed]

You don't need a deliberating phase, just have town "vote" via PM during confirmation

Also I agree redirector is overpowerd. Limited shot roleblocker might be worthwhile, Mafia Doctor also too. Do think 3 goons might be fine.

[Xalxe]

But scum get to deliberate...

Is there any way you could make a mafia-sided version of one of the town roles (like Doctor)?

[Hoopla]

lets just go w/ 3 goonz, kay?

[Xalxe]

3:10, 2 town PRs, no Maf PRs...

mmkay

[izakthegoomba]

Looks like it should work. IMO scum don't need a PR in that kind of game.

[Hoopla]

3:10, 2 town PRs, no Maf PRs...

mmkay

No, three town PR's.

[Xalxe]

...I knew that.

[Shadow Dancer]

So with my

Jungle Republic

game (O319) recently finished I wanted to share some thoughts/opinions that came up in the setup discussions around that game.

First of I like the idea with two assymetric scum teams in general and definitely think a setup like that should be in the pool.

The particular game in question played out in an unusual way: It was day 4 and 2:2:2 with the seer and tw of his investigations (both mafia) alive. But mafia decided to not wait for a seer claim and claimed both mafia. After that the seer claimed and was counterclaimed by one of the wolves. Town and mafia lynched correctly, so it was 1:2:2 with confirmed mafia and seer at nightstart, making a 1:1:2 with all roles confirmed inevitable ,and forcing a "happily ever after" draw, had the last wolf not given up and night killed the seer in that situation.
Based on that game and how it played out I think the following issues need to be taken into consideration:

I. Win conditions

If 1:1:1 is considered a mafia win 2:2:1 consequently needs to be added to the list of mafia wins, too. It just makes no sense to declare one kingmaker situation for town a win but not the other.

II. swinginess

I personally don't like hard cop roles. We mostly had a consensus that success for town depends way too much on how long the seer stays alive in the current setup and the games, that have been played with the setup also show a strong tendency towards this dependency. I'd like to see a derivative that uses different, weaker power roles.

III. 12p vs. 13p

No docs and only 1 night kill. So normally 13 players would be a natural choice. However, that would make the game ending in a kingmaker situation for town much more likely which is a bit awkward and in case of a mafia vs. town (nightless) endgame it would not make a difference on priciple. This is mostly a mathematical question and math for that setup is already quite time consuming... Undecided on this point...

IV. lynch majorities

With special attention to the 1:1:2 endgame situation I suggest a mandatory minority lynch rule (i.e. leading waggon is lynched at deadline, even if it lacks absolute majority). That would allow town to force a lynch in that situation and avoid the "happily ever after". However, I am aware that said situation of 1:1:2 with every role being confirmed can only occur as the result of faulty mafia play. On the other hand it might not always be suboptimal for mafia to not claim their roles, for example if town is on the right track and mafia don't see a chance to win they might consider claiming to achieve a draw.
wolf+mafia could still force a no-lynch by both explicitely voting no-lynch (which then would tale priority unless there aren't further modifications to lynch rules) though.

[Hoopla]

Thanks for that report on Jungle Republic. I've never played in one and haven't thought about the setup too deeply, but the results we have so far suggests it's balanced-ish, even if it is swingy. But a setup with three factions and five scum is always going to be swingy, I feel.

Anyhow, I'm going to go ahead with the Pick Your Poison solution of 3 Goons for the other roles it's with. I think that's runnable and potentially a fun setup.

I don't know what to do with Operating Room. I haven't heard any good solutions for the setup to play how it's intended. The optimal strategy still is for the town to just vote on a player for all the Doctors to "vig" at night, which seems to undermine what the setup is about. I don't know. I can't think of any good solution and I'm not sure if it's worth the time. If someone wants to stick up for it and offer some ideas on it, I'm willing to listen, otherwise it can be binned.

Hard Boiled is a tricky one to fix - it definitely has the popularity, but it suffers from having too many named, confirmable roles, and with a vigilante in the setup, strategies revolving around the other PR's claiming and the vig staying hidden and cleaning up the other roles makes it too easy for the town and not fun to play in. I think the right solution is going from 12p to 13p and dropping one of the roles. My opinion would be dropping the Detective/Psychologist.

[Hoopla]

The Large and Experimental Games now:

Double Day
Near Vanilla (14P)

*

Big Love

*

Picking Simplicity

*

The New C9

*

Immunity Mafia

*

Lovers Multiball

*

Ninja Mafia


Donner Party
Medical Mafia

*

Assassin in the Palace

*

Dethy

*

Mayo Clinic

*

Paris Mafia

*

Quack Mafia

*

Quack Multiball

*

Rebels in the Palace

*

Rusty Guillotine Mafia

*

Tread Carefully

*

10P Jester Mafia

*

12P Jester Mafia

*

Texas Justice Mafia

*

Crush Nightless

[Empking]

What's wrong with Paris?

[Hoopla]

I think it's really tough on the Mimes if the town uses the no-lynching strategy D1 and/or D2.

[Hoopla]

Watcher + Vig probably isn't a good combination either. It's a good idea for a setup - it makes the concept of Jesters much more playable, but it needs some tweaking.

[izakthegoomba]

Isn't picking simplicity town/SK sided? There's nothing to stop town playing follow the cop, putting the mafia at a huge disadvantage.

A quick and easy solution:

4 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(Immune to Investigation OR Roleblocking)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Day start
• Serial Killer chooses their immunity upon confirming

[Hoopla]

It's a decent solution - both PR's are likely to do little. I think the main influence will be how much damage the SK can do to the scumteam. The Cop might catch a scum or two at best, but it's likelier to either die before it claims or get a couple of innocents. Maybe the mafia could have a Godfather? The SK would be foolish to pick the RB option - being Inv-Immune is much handier. JK pretty much has to replace the Doc though.