Combat Mechanics and Comments

Older threads and ideas relating to the Amstaad RPG.
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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:19 pm

Post by Yaw »

Ok, it's now Monday my time.

Excel says the battles are as follows:

Fight 1: Yaw (mod) vs. Mojo
Fight 2: Kerplunk (mod) vs. thorred
Fight 3: Anyone who wants to mod this vs. Jeep

Feel free to volunteer for fight 3's modship. I'll do it if everyone else declines.

Here's how the test will work:

Mods will start a new thread for each fight. This will contain a bit of scene-setting. Fight 1 will be a duel, Fight 2 will be an ambush on the player (so we can see both reaction checks in action).

Players will then post their character sheet in thread. Mod characters will be posted
after the battle is over
for analysis purposes.

Mods will do the calculation for the battles and post in thread, giving players a chance to respond after each round of combat. Totals for attack and defense should be posted in thread, without a breakdown.

Players are responsible for posting the actual content of the battle in prose form. Take the numbers given and create a story from it. Creativity is highly encouraged. This can be done round-by-round, or at the end of the battle, as you prefer.

Battles will be to the death, so that we can check what happens with the Willpower thing. Both mods and players are encouraged to post at what point they'd back out of the conflict were this rule not in place.

After the battle is over and the mod character posted, each fight thread will be open for discussion on combat in general.

You are encouraged to equip your character as desired, without regard for what he/she would normally be able to afford. You are also encouraged to try combat tricks -- disarming, changing weapons between rounds, using two weapons at once, Focus checks, shields, etc. Let's stretch this thing as far as it will go, so we can see where any problems lie.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:17 am

Post by thorred »

I'll mod Fight 3.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:20 pm

Post by Kerplunk »

That's cool, Yaw. I have a thief-character ready and I'm going to fight an ambush-fight. I'll make the thread shortly.

Be ready to die (or dice), thorred. ;)
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:21 am

Post by Kerplunk »

At what level do the NPC's have to be?
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:45 am

Post by Yaw »

Level 0. Both NPCs and player characters. In
theory
, that should make for a fair fight. (Looks in Mojo's direction :P)
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:05 pm

Post by Kerplunk »

I'm not sur eI understand what happens when a disarmement succeeds. The opponent loses his weapon, but can he pick it up the next turn (and loose a chance to attack)?
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:29 am

Post by Yaw »

We don't have that figured out yet. Right now, we'll say you have to fight unarmed until the end of combat. After this round of tests is done, we'll figure out how disarmament worked, and discuss allowing people to pick up weapons during combat (and under what conditions).
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:50 am

Post by Mojo »

Maybe the disarmed person should do a coordination and athletics check vs. a fixed number to see if he is able to dive to his weapon quick enough in order to pick it up and stand up again. If he fails, he lose a turn and has a -2 for defencive check this turn.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:13 am

Post by Yaw »

Vor redux. The issue, as I see it, is inter-level balance. Obviously, somebody with a lot of natural physical ability should be able to beat someone who doesn't have as much in combat. The question is about how much experience should be required to negate that natural advantage.

To put it another way, sure in test 1 Vor beat Oduro easily. That isn't at issue for game balance. Should Vor have been able to beat Oduro easily if this were still Vor's first fight, but Oduro had fought in 10 battles before? 20? At what point should the boost from experience in battle be able to balance out pure natural ability?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that combat will only take place among characters at the same level. (It won't, but it makes the math reasonably simple while being somewhat realistic.) Experience is assigned on the basis of the level of character beaten in combat, and how good the roleplaying was. We'll assume average roleplaying. That gives us:

BXP = 7*(level + 1)

Comparing this against the NPC experience assigned for each level, and assuming that the character is going to be a dominant fighter (primarily body attributes), we can get an impression of how many fights an NPC at a certain level would have been in and won. So...

Level 1: 15 BXP, 2 fights.
Level 2: 60 BXP, 5 fights.
Level 3: 135 BXP, 8 fights.
Level 4: 240 BXP, 12 fights.

Level 4's supposed to be the "boss" level. I think I would need to create a level 4, semi-optimized for combat, non-Slith NPC to be able to have a chance against Vor with no experience.

Now, this isn't exactly correct even under the assumptions stated, but it does give some idea of what's going on. What does this sort of inter-level analysis imply about balance? Are there modifications that can fix any issues?
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:56 pm

Post by jeep »

12 fights for a "boss" level? Wow. That seems awfully light. I don't know where the numbers you state come from and probably shouldn't, but it looks like you get equal experience no matter what the skill level of your opponent... but maybe something dropped out due to the equal level assumption, I guess. A relatively adept person with 12 fights experience is probably experienced enough to compete with a gifted "natural." But still might not win. Also is that 12-0? I.e. never lost a fight? Or is it 250-12? I'd put my money on the newbie in the latter case.

I think that if the non-fighting parts of the roleplaying are sufficient, that the optimized chars will have problems anyway. You can't spend ALL your time going from fight to fight to fight. Enforce that. "You are too tired to fight." If the player trys to sweep the resting periods under the rug, then force other encounters.

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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:03 am

Post by Yaw »

Ok, revised combat. I'll be editing this post as more gets filled in.

Physical Combat


Combat is turn-based, with alternating attack/defend cycles.

In each cycle, we compare the number generated by the attacker with that generated by the defender to determine if the attacker hit successfully.

Attack = weapon skill + related attribute + d10
Defend = evasion + CRD + d10

To hit, attack > defend.

Now, if a player is carrying a shield, that adds to the defense, but also negatively affects his/her CRD as follows.

Buckler: Defend + 1
Small Shield: Defend + 3, CRD - 1
Large Shield: Defend + 5, CRD - 2
Tower Shield: Defend + 7, CRD = 0

Note that the CRD penalty will affect attacks, if the weapon skill used by the shielded person is dependent on CRD.

If an attack is successful, it will do damage. The base damage is dependent on the kind of weapon being used. This is deducted from a player's Hit Points.

Hit Points = 3*(STR + CRD + HP Bonus)

In addition, the kind of weapon being used can influence whether the attacker scores a critical hit. A critical hit is scored if the value of the attack is a greater than the defense by a significant amount. If a critical hit is scored, more damage is done.

In table form, this means:

[mrow]Damage Type[col]Light[col]Medium[col]Heavy Base Damage[col]STR[col]1.5*STR[col]2*STR Critical Slashing[col]1.5*STR[col]2*STR[col]2.5*STR Critical Piercing[col]2*STR[col]2.5*STR[col]3*STR Critical Bludgeoning[col]1.5*STR[col]2*STR[col]2.5*STR



With:

[mrow]Damage Type[col]Criterion Critical Slashing[col]Attack >= 1.5*Defend Critical Piercing[col]Attack >= 2*Defend Critical Bludgeoning[col]Attack >= 2*Defend



All that remains is to categorize weapons. Basic ideas for each category are below, but these can be extended to fit anything a character happens to be using, and any style they are using.

[mrow]Weapon Type[col]Light[col]Medium[col]Heavy Slashing[col]Dagger[col]Sword Hand Ax[col]Battle-Axe Two-Handed Sword Piercing[col]Dart[col]Spear Arrow[col]-- Bludgeoning[col]Fists[col]Staves Mace Morning Star[col]Maul (War Hammer)



If a player is wearing armour, that can reduce the damage suffered from a successful hit. This will also negatively affect his/her CRD, as follows:

Leather Armour: -1 damage
Studded Armour: -2 damage
Chain Mail: -3 damage, -1 CRD
Breastplate: -4 damage, -1 CRD
Plate Mail: -5 damage, -2 CRD

Characters are able to withdraw from combat at any point, if they so desire. We might want to work out a point at which NPCs withdraw (dependent on the NPC).

Magickal Combat


Similar idea to physical combat, but using magickal abilities.

Attack = Sorcery + POW + d10
Defend = Sorcery + PUR + d10

In addition, one can defend a spell that is mind affecting by
Defend = Willpower + PUR + d10

Spells can have targetted effects or areal effects. They can also be classified as low, medium, or high damage. This works as follows in table form:

[mrow]Damage Type[col]Light[col]Medium[col]Heavy Base Damage[col]POW[col]1.5*POW[col]2*POW


Magickal Fatigue


Actually performing any of these actions will also be based on fatigue. This is an additional check against any action of:

Focus + PUR + d10 + penalty

This means that every action will now be tested against fatigue -- no fixed numbers to roll against. So, for example, to be successful casting a spell at your opponent:

Attack = Sorcery + POW + d10 > Sorcery + PUR + d10 = Defend
Attack = Sorcery + POW + d10 > Focus + PUR + d10 + penalty = Fatigue

Both of these conditions must be satisfied for the spell to be successful. If the second fails, the spell won't be cast. If the second is successful but the first fails, the spell will be countered.

Penalties are reduced to zero on resting and eating. Failure to do these actions for a while will result in added penalties against fatigue rolls.

For spells, the fatigue penalties are:

Casting a spell: 2
Casting an areal effect: 2
Casting a Low damage spell: 0
Casting a Medium damage spell: 1
Casting a High damage spell: 2
Each previous failure to cast spell: 2

These penalties are additive. For the purposes of spellcasting, the penalty will be referred to as a spell's Difficulty.

Critical failure on a fatigue roll will result in a player Swooning. This means he/she will go unconscious for a period of time, overtaken by fatigue. Critical failure occurs when:

Fatigue > 0.5*Attack

Physical Fatigue


This is analogous to Magickal Fatigue. That is, every action is subject to an additional check of:

Focus + PUR + d10 + penalty

So, to successfully hit an opponent:

Attack = Weapon Skill + Related Attribute + d10 > evasion + CRD + d10 = Defend
Attack = Weapon Skill + Related Attribute + d10 > Focus + PUR + d10 + penalty = Fatigue

As with spells, both conditions must be met for an attack to be successful. If the first is not, the attack will be blocked. If the second is not, the attacker will be unable to deliver the blow, swinging wildly, stumbling, or missing for some other reason.

Penalties are reduced to zero on resting and eating. Failure to do these actions for a while will result in added penalties against fatigue rolls.

For physical combat, the fatigue penalties are:

Attacking: 2
Wearing Armour: Penalty equal to CRD deduction
Using a Shield: Penalty equal to CRD deduction
Using a Tower Shield: 3
Using a Medium-Sized Weapon: 1
Using a Heavy Weapon: 2
Previous Failure on Fatigue Roll: 2

These penalties are additive.

Critical failure on a fatigue roll will result in a player Swooning. This means he/she will go unconscious for a period of time, overtaken by fatigue. Critical failure occurs when:

Fatigue > 0.5*Attack
Last edited by Yaw on Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:04 am

Post by Yaw »

Thinking about it, I don't like the above for Fatigue. MMCL was right in some ways.

Beginnings of a better method...

Everyone has 100 Energy to start the day. This lets us think in terms of percentages, which is much easier. Every time you take an action -- any action -- it results in a penalty being assigned to the player's energy budget. When they sleep for a reasonable amount of time, it gets reset to 100. Smaller naps, eating, etc. can boost a player's energy, but not reset it.

Since every action has a related attribute, this gives us a framework to assign penalties. The more natural ability a character has in a certain area, the slower they will be affected by fatigue. This means that after the action is attempted, a penalty will be assigned by:

Fatigue = (Action Factor) * (10 - Attribute)

Where the Action Factor is a coefficient assigned to reflect how strenuous the task is. This means that fatigue would be considered as a whole -- a strong fighter who is weak at problem solving will become so tired mentally from doing the latter that it will affect him if he has to fight.

When a player's energy drops to a certain range, an appropriate penalty will be applied against all rolls. This means no secondary check against fatigue -- one roll, success or failure, followed by a fatigue penalty applied to the character's energy before the next task.

Swooning will occur when a player's energy drops to a certain level. A roll for Willpower may be able to hold off swooning temporarily, but that roll will be quite difficult (as it will have to beat all the fatigue penalties amassed). I see there being two different levels for swooning -- this one and a secondary one where no amount of rolling can possibly avert unconsciousness.

Comments? Do people prefer this method? If so, we have to come up with energy levels for swooning and penalties, and coefficients for various actions. (I can see most, if not all of these being fractions -- if AF=1, an average character would lose 6 energy for that action, meaning he/she could only perform 16-17 actions per day.)
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:23 am

Post by mikehart »

Well, Yaw and I talked about this last night and here are some thoughts I had about fatigue:

We should have some sort of Racial modifier for fatigue. For instance, Dwarves are commonly seen as tireless workers to humans. As do Elves. Now for the other two races I'm not sure, but Dwarves and Elves should definitely get a bonus of some type.

Yaw and I were unsure what type of bonuses the non-human races should recieve but I think a higher amount of Energy would be much simpler than applying racial modifiers to multiple actions.
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:59 am

Post by Pie_is_good »

I think the weapons need some work; there's not nearly enough in that list.

Combat system: I think the attack/defend system is good. I like the second fatigue better, though.

Swooning doesn't make much sense to me. In real life, even being really tired won't make you pass out.


Maybe something to the effect of:

+1 modifier to all rolls for each 5 points of energy above 80

-1 modifier to all rolls for each 5 points of energy below 40

Energy = 0 (or a singificantlty low number, at the mod's discretion): You may not perform any actions such as swinging a sword, lifting, etc. You may only walk slowly and lift extremely light things.

Use triple (?) the energy to perform an action: Out of combat, it's akin to "taking twenty"; an automatic success.
In combat, you get a +4 (?) modifier to your roll to hit and a +2 (?) modifier to damage.

...the numbers inserted have not really been thought through; it's more the type of bonuses recieved I'm interested in.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:18 pm

Post by Yaw »

Weapons just fit into categories. Anything can be added into the list -- it's designed to be illustrative rather than exhaustive.

Since the idea is to make combat "dangerous" (by Dour's original framework), that means we can evaluate combat by using probabilities. (It'll model combat reasonably well, as we can expect it to be over within about two hits.) Now, mikehart's suggestion was to just use characters from the wiki and our prior combat testing, so I'm listing below a sample of characters to use. Please comment if you think the sample could be improved.

Nithrar -- 4STR, 6CRD, 4 sticks
Soulair -- 4STR, 8CRD, 2 swords
Glaisne -- 7STR, 5CRD, 4 swords
Fernando Pablosa -- 6STR, 6CRD, 2 crossbow
Th'okaris -- 9STR, 7CRD, 4 knives
Sha-Skelesh -- 3STR, 3CRD, 3 swords
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:51 pm

Post by Pie_is_good »

Are some of the characters going to fight using magical combat, or are they all physical?
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:59 pm

Post by Yaw »

For this round, all physical. We'll work out magickal combat next.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:21 pm

Post by Yaw »

Nithrar vs. Soulair:


Nithrar:

Probability of hitting: 55%
Probability of a critical hit: 1%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 13%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Soulair:

Probability of hitting: 45%
Probability of a critical hit: 10%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 0%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 10 damage

Nithrar vs. Glaisne:


Nithrar:

Probability of hitting: 72%
Probability of a critical hit: 9%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 30%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Glaisne:

Probability of hitting: 64%
Probability of a critical hit: 19%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 2%

Deals: 10.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 10 damage

Nithrar vs. Th'okaris:


Nithrar:

Probability of hitting: 72%
Probability of a critical hit: 9%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 30%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 16 damage

Th'okaris:

Probability of hitting: 79%
Probability of a critical hit: 6%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 30%

Deals: 9 damage
Has to deal to kill: 10 damage

Note:
Changed Th'okaris to using unarmed combat, as he would have exactly the same stats for attack and defense as Glaisne if he used his knives (CRD) skill.

Nithrar vs. Sha-Skelesh:


Nithrar:

Probability of hitting: 94%
Probability of a critical hit: 45%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 70%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 6 damage

Sha-Skelesh:

Probability of hitting: 21%
Probability of a critical hit: 2%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 0%

Deals: 4.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 10 damage
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:18 am

Post by Yaw »

Soulair vs. Glaisne:


Soulair:

Probability of hitting: 72%
Probability of a critical hit: 45%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 30%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Glaisne:

Probability of hitting: 64%
Probability of a critical hit: 19%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 2%

Deals: 10.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Soulair vs. Th'okaris:


Soulair:

Probability of hitting: 72%
Probability of a critical hit: 45%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 30%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 16 damage

Th'okaris:

Probability of hitting: 79%
Probability of a critical hit: 6%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 30%

Deals: 9 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Soulair vs. Sha-Skelesh:


Soulair:

Probability of hitting: 94%
Probability of a critical hit: 70%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 45%

Deals: 6 damage
Has to deal to kill: 6 damage

Sha-Skelesh:

Probability of hitting: 21%
Probability of a critical hit: 2%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 0%

Deals: 4.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage
Last edited by Yaw on Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:49 am

Post by Yaw »

Glaisne vs. Th'okaris:


Glaisne:

Probability of hitting: 79%
Probability of a critical hit: 37%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 12%

Deals: 10.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 16 damage

Th'okaris:

Probability of hitting: 90%
Probability of a critical hit: 20%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 50%

Deals: 9 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Glaisne vs. Sha-Skelesh:


Glaisne:

Probability of hitting: 97%
Probability of a critical hit: 76%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 50%

Deals: 10.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 6 damage

Sha-Skelesh:

Probability of hitting: 36%
Probability of a critical hit: 10%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 1%

Deals: 4.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 12 damage

Th'okaris vs. Sha-Skelesh:


Th'okaris:

Probability of hitting: 99%
Probability of a critical hit: 55%
Probability of a critical hit if using a slashing weapon: 81%

Deals: 9 damage
Has to deal to kill: 6 damage

Sha-Skelesh:

Probability of hitting: 36%
Probability of a critical hit: 10%
Probability of a critical hit if using a piercing or blunt weapon: 1%

Deals: 4.5 damage
Has to deal to kill: 16 damage
Last edited by Yaw on Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:53 am

Post by Yaw »

Left Fernando Pablosa out, because he's using a crossbow and we haven't discussed range yet. Comments on how to handle that would be appreciated.

Overall, I'm happy with the results. They seem to be intuitive.

My one minor critique is with the critical hit. Because it's based on a multiple of the defense, it tends to be a bit non-intuitive. (I asked myself a few times if the number was right.) I think it might be better to make the critical hit criteria:

Attack >= Defense + n,

Where n is some constant number we can set. (We could calibrate it so it gives around the percentages we want for the Nithrar/Soulair match, and then check it against the others.) This would give more intuitive numbers.

In addition, if a critical hit is to be defined physically as hitting a gap in the opponent's armour, it's actually easier to do that with a piercing weapon than a slashing weapon. So the criteria should be adjusted to reflect this. (I think there should be some bonus in addition to just not having the armour apply, so that getting a critical hit isn't irrelevant if the opponent's not wearing armour. Not entirely sure what yet.)

So, any comments on the critical hit stuff, how to deal with range, or the above tests?
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:05 am

Post by Pie_is_good »

Range: Many other RPGs include a system for initiative and a system for determining speed. Initiative could be something like d10 + CRD, with the higher roller getting the first attack off (ties going to the highest CRD bonus). Then, speed: Speed could be a base number +/x CRD, then characters take to-hit penalties if they attack while moving.

Would that unbalance the CRD skill?

And for Crit Hits... I'm sure special hits could be made that don't neccesarily evade armor. Maybe they automatically deal damage, in addition to a special something that could be rolled up (maybe a d10 with a different outcome for each number).
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:13 pm

Post by Yaw »

Nithrar vs. Soulair:

Nithrar:

Probability to hit: 55%

Critical hit probability if:

Attack > Defense + 1: 45%
Attack > Defense + 2: 36%
Attack > Defense + 3: 28%
Attack > Defense + 4: 21%
Attack > Defense + 5: 15%
Attack > Defense + 6: 10%
Attack > Defense + 7: 6%
Attack > Defense + 8: 3%
Attack > Defense + 9: 1%

Soulair:

Probability to hit: 64%

Critical hit probability if:

Attack > Defense + 1: 55%
Attack > Defense + 2: 45%
Attack > Defense + 3: 36%
Attack > Defense + 4: 28%
Attack > Defense + 5: 21%
Attack > Defense + 6: 15%
Attack > Defense + 7: 10%
Attack > Defense + 8: 6%
Attack > Defense + 9: 3%

(Yes, I know the initial probabilities are inconsistent with before. Either I miscalculated or Jeep changed his character in the interim.)

So looking at the above percentages, we need to decide which critical hit criteria would make the most sense for slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning weapons. (We're looking for what the probability should be to critical hit with each type of weapon.) Knowing those criteria, I can run them through the other scenarios from before to see if it gives good numbers across the board.

What's your preference for the critical hit?
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:36 pm

Post by jeep »

I didn't change the character...

I guess I need more details on what a critical hit is... but I'd say two skilled opponents will not get 10% critical hits. Take boxing, for example and say a critical hit is a knock out. Two skilled boxers will throw something along the lines of 50-100 punches per round (maybe half of them being power shots) and land say 1 in 3 or 4. I don't know the stats in knockouts, but they aren't easy. So maybe 1 in 100 or 200 power shots? So I think we should make it so that two skilled fighters have a 1% chance of getting a critical hit.

But that all depends on what is "critical." I think you should throw a non-combatant in the mix and make sure that it's quite a bit easier to get a critical hit on them.

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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:06 pm

Post by jeep »

comments?
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