Open 337: Twin Trap (Game Over)

[DeltaWave]

@Collyer - There wasn't much in D2 to analyze. I don't see why Fakinha is suspicious for anything they did before I replaced in. I find their unquestioning agreement with me to be suspect but I strongly think that Neil is scum so I don't know what to make of that. If Neil is town then it could be that Fakinha is just jumping on board. If Neil turns out not to be scum then I'm heading straight for Fakinha. If he is scum, then Isa.

• Votecount 2-5
  
  
  
  neil1113
  (3)
  Fakinha
  ,
  DeltaWave
  ,
  Thomas
  [L-1]
  
  
  Fakinha
  (1)
  neil1113
  
  
  DeltaWave
  (1)
  Isa
  
  
  
  Not Voting:
  
  
  Collyer
  ,
  bv310
  
  
  
  Notes
  
  
• With
  7
  alive, it takes
  4
  to lynch
  
• The deadline for Day 2 is Saturday, October 29th, 12:00AM UTC

[Fakinha]

Well, only that if someone jumped in, it wasn't me. But it doesn't matter, neil is scum and that is it.
Nice to see that there are still more people in the game.

[neil1113]

@Collyer - There wasn't much in D2 to analyze. I don't see why Fakinha is suspicious for anything they did before I replaced in. I find their unquestioning agreement with me to be suspect but I strongly think that Neil is scum so I don't know what to make of that. If Neil is town then it could be that Fakinha is just jumping on board. If Neil turns out not to be scum then I'm heading straight for Fakinha. If he is scum, then Isa.

• Votecount 2-5
  
  
  
  neil1113
  (3)
  Fakinha
  ,
  DeltaWave
  ,
  Thomas
  [L-1]
  
  
  Fakinha
  (1)
  neil1113
  
  
  DeltaWave
  (1)
  Isa
  
  
  
  Not Voting:
  
  
  Collyer
  ,
  bv310
  
  
  
  Notes
  
  
• With
  7
  alive, it takes
  4
  to lynch
  
• The deadline for Day 2 is Saturday, October 29th, 12:00AM UTC

You're so scum it hurts. You're leading the town into a mislynch even though I've said consecutively that we're at L-2. Seriously guys? Let's lynch scum here.

[DeltaWave]

Neil, you acted incredibly scummy on Day 1 when you decided to hammer pink. Your excuse was lame and gave me no reason to believe you. You saw your opportunity to lynch a townie and you took it. And then, on Day 2, you've relied only on OMGUS and various appeals to emotion. Your appeals to Thomas, specifically, were so transparent that I find it hard to believe a townie would rely on something like that. You must die today, for great justice.

[Thomas]

Thomas, we're almost ten pages into the game and you've only managed to develop one stable read - well, to be honest all your other reads are stable, they've been "null". Get it together...are you honestly that clueless?

10 pages and low activity. Do you have a read on every player in the game or something? Do you want me to give you more reads? I don't think I have mentioned my read on bv which is null-slight scum (neil is more scummy, though). I can't imagine why neil and bv would get into such a heated discussion early in day 1 if they were both scum partners, though. Bv is flying under the radar and has gotten away for most of the day without many posts.

I'll reply to other inquiries later today.

[Collyer]

@Collyer - There wasn't much in D2 to analyze. I don't see why Fakinha is suspicious for anything they did before I replaced in. I find their unquestioning agreement with me to be suspect but I strongly think that Neil is scum so I don't know what to make of that. If Neil is town then it could be that Fakinha is just jumping on board. If Neil turns out not to be scum then I'm heading straight for Fakinha. If he is scum, then Isa.

So if Neil is town, you're going to push for the lynch of the players that jumped on the bandwagon that you led on a town player. I know you aren't going to lynch yourself, even though you'd be the most heavily implicated, but that's a little strange. Presuming Neil is scum, you haven't considered the possibility that Fakhina might be bussing? Throughout the game I've been the one who's pointed out Isa's persistant buddying, yet you've come to the conclusion that Isa must be scum with him. Suppose Isa is scum, and he knows Neil is town, if Neil is lynched, Isa can claim to have been on his side all along, and have a very good excuse to build a convincing case on the players that lynched him (tunnelling perhaps?). I know they could be scum together, and I'm not ruling it out, but would they really make it that obvious? I don't like the way you're so sure about everything, especially as I'm guessing you've already thought about all this I've written.

I'm really not satisfied with your answers on Fakhina. I admit that the player he replaced wasn't scummy and Fakhina can't be held responsible for any of that. However don't you think it's strange that in his first post, he attacks a player for voting bv, then says he has a town read on him (without giving a reason). He votes for pink, and then switches to Neil without reasons again. From that point on he's posted very little, and not much of which is content. Since Post 182 (nearly a week ago) he's done nothing, and has refused to participate in discussion, apart citing the validity of a case that he has never really supported with anything other than Neil hammering pink. I don't think that's enough. Do you?

You're so scum it hurts. You're leading the town into a mislynch even though I've said consecutively that we're at L-2. Seriously guys? Let's lynch scum here.

I agree with DeltaWave that you're appeals to emotion are a bad sign, especially when you consider that you've already ignored accusations against yourself (Post 202) and hammered a townie yesterday, without good reason. That's not to mention how you were sure bv was scum on day 1 (so much so that you were willing to be lynched as long as he was) and then the dropped the case to attack Thomas on a relitatevely minor point, and then drop the hammer on pink (oppurtunistic perhaps?). Thomas mentioned this breifly in post 219 but you completely ignored it with the above post (perhaps because Thomas was talking to me, and we know how you like conversations to be exclusive).

Also, as a final observation, don't you think it's interesting to read Cav's posts, in light of his nightkill? He was arguably the most pro active player towards the end of yesterday, and raised some good points about Isa's and Neil's behaviour.

[DeltaWave]

@Collyer - I'm considering the possibility of some bussing going on here. I'm not setting up tunnels for tomorrow, just speculating on future events. Unless something really definitive happens, I won't declare anyone to be definitely town or definitely scum. Everyone's going to get considered.

At the moment I'm pretty confident that Neil is scum, but it's hard to make judgements in this game because there isn't a lot of activity. I've still got my eye on Fahkina.

[Fakinha]

Spell my nickname right, will you? D: It's Fakinha.

So, collyer, you don't think neil is scum? Or you are just suspecting DeltaWave for joining the wagon with me?

Looking at the only FOUR posts of Cav, he brought up the buddyness of Isa and Neil.

[Collyer]

@Collyer - I'm considering the possibility of some bussing going on here. I'm not setting up tunnels for tomorrow, just speculating on future events. Unless something really definitive happens, I won't declare anyone to be definitely town or definitely scum. Everyone's going to get considered.

At the moment I'm pretty confident that Neil is scum, but it's hard to make judgements in this game because there isn't a lot of activity. I've still got my eye on Fahkina.

What do you mean by something really definitive? How is everyone being considered? I mentioned this in passing in post 198, yet throughout this game you've concentrated almost exclusively on Neil, aside from a breif conversation with Isa, and saying that you have a null read on Fakinha. I don't think you have your eye on everyone, besides you say 'everyone's going to get considered' as if you haven't done it yet (you could have said 'everyone has been considered, and I still want to lynch Neil'). You also completely ignored the part of my post where I ask you your opinions on the dubious actions of Fakinha, why is that? Don't you think it's important? If you concentrated on the actions of other players then perhaps it would be easier to make judgements.

I'm sorry Fakinha. I never said I don't think Neil is scum. I was talking hypothetically to Delta, and it's quite clear throughout this game that I've attacked Neil. I happen to agree with some of DeltaWave's points about Neil, but am attacking him for not considering anyone else.

I appreciate that Cav made only four posts, but they were insightful. I'd say that in his four posts, he made a more productive contribution than you have in your twenty three. It's not the number of posts that's important, for example, I'm sure everyone would agree that Cav was more use than pinkfloyd ever was, despite pinkfloyd posting twenty five times. I thought it was intersting to see that he replaced into the game, made good points not only about Isa's buddying but also Neil's desire to make his discussion with bv exclusive, then Neil hammers pinkfloyd (therefore preventing Cav from posting again) and Cav dies in the nightkill. Why did you misrepresent and attempt to downplay it? Also, why didn't you comment on my thoughts about you bussing Neil?

[DeltaWave]

You know, a really definitive scumslip or an investigation or something. Some event that really seals the deal. Like I've said before, I haven't seen anything with Fakinha that would warrant my vote right now. It's hard to get reads in a game that's this inactive.

[Isa]

Are you saying that you rely on night actions or flat out horrible play by scum to be able to get reads? You have been tunneling since you started the game, only interacting with Neil on your own command - the contacts you've made with everyone else has been reactive. Frankly, you're tunneling more than I've done, by far. Also a fun thing - you're saying that Fakinha is suspicious for agreeing with you on everything, when it is actually the other way around. You certainly did not start the push on him.

Collyer - it seems to me that you're saying that "If Neil is town, Isa is scum" - consider a scenario where Neil is lynched and flips scum. Would you still pin me down as scum for the same reasons as if he'd flip town? You seem to be speculating a lot in Neil-town but you're not really giving out your thoughts on what happens if he'll flip scum.

Neil, I want more interaction from you - your last posts have been AtE at best and the ones before that have been answers to my questions. You too are tunneling now. What's your read on everyone not named DeltaWave or Fakinha? Also why are you still voting Fakinha over DeltaWave?

Bv needs replacement or a new prod. He is making it impossible for us to get a read down on him.

[Isa]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?a ... 9&sr=posts

Actually this just makes me angry. He has refused to post in this thread despite promising to, yet at this very moment he's running around talking about books on the site?

Come ON Bv. Don't be poor lurkerscum.

[bv310]

Isa, if you have the time to go through my post history, you would probably notice that they're all only a few lines. This is because I have a midterm in 45 minutes worth 30% of my mark. If you think this game is more important than my grades, then I'd kindly ask you to give your head a shake. I promised I'd post when I had time to read well, and I will do that.

[Isa]

/prodded. Will get some thoughts up this weekend.

You said this, which did not happen. Not anything about when you'd have time.

That said, grades are indeed more important.

[Collyer]

You know, a really definitive scumslip or an investigation or something. Some event that really seals the deal. Like I've said before, I haven't seen anything with Fakinha that would warrant my vote right now. It's hard to get reads in a game that's this inactive.

You've ignored the part of my post where I accuse you of not concentrating on any other players. What do you think of that? I'm not asking or suggesting you vote for Fakinha, I'm merely asking you what you think of his actions. The ironic thing is you say that you're struggling to get reads because of inactivity but it must also be hard if you refuse to critically examine anyone unless you're voting for them. The strange thing about this is it only started out as a question to you, but your persistant ignorance of certain parts of my post or your meager attempts to confuse what I've asked, are actually making me even more suspicious of you.

Frankly, you're tunneling more than I've done, by far.

You admit that you've been tunnelling?

Collyer - it seems to me that you're saying that "If Neil is town, Isa is scum" - consider a scenario where Neil is lynched and flips scum. Would you still pin me down as scum for the same reasons as if he'd flip town? You seem to be speculating a lot in Neil-town but you're not really giving out your thoughts on what happens if he'll flip scum.

Why aren't you questiong DeltaWave? He was the first person to say that if Neil flipped scum, then he'd come after you. I did breifly consider the implications of Neil flipping scum:

I know they could be scum together, and I'm not ruling it out, but would they really make it that obvious?

You make a good point, but you've brought my suspicions upon yourself. If Neil flips scum, then it won't look good for you (DeltaWave has already said he'll want you lynched). I also think that you may be buddying him so hard that it's a sort of double bluff, and if he does flip scum you'll say 'if I was really scum with Neil, would I make it so obvious', and use that as an excuse to support him throughout the game. If Neil flips town then I still don't see why you'd buddy him so hard; you could be town, but I don't think your that naive or impressionable. You could be scum, and as I said before, use his proven towniness to use the excuse that you couldn't be scum, because you'd agreed with a town player, and therefore build a case to lynch the players who lynched Neil (whom in this situation aren't scum). Besides, I wouldn't say I'm specualting a lot, not anymore than DeltaWave at any rate, whom you didn't mention. Why have you been buddying him so hard? I remember you denied it in post 165 when I asked you about it, and then you ignored me when I asked you about it further (post 170).

[DeltaWave]

You know, a really definitive scumslip or an investigation or something. Some event that really seals the deal. Like I've said before, I haven't seen anything with Fakinha that would warrant my vote right now. It's hard to get reads in a game that's this inactive.

You've ignored the part of my post where I accuse you of not concentrating on any other players. What do you think of that? I'm not asking or suggesting you vote for Fakinha, I'm merely asking you what you think of his actions. The ironic thing is you say that you're struggling to get reads because of inactivity but it must also be hard if you refuse to critically examine anyone unless you're voting for them. The strange thing about this is it only started out as a question to you, but your persistant ignorance of certain parts of my post or your meager attempts to confuse what I've asked, are actually making me even more suspicious of you.

I didn't ignore it. I said, it's hard to get reads in a game this inactive. I have a hard time concentrating on players who don't (or rarely) post. If someone's going to engage in a conversation with me, I'm going to spend more time thinking about them. It seems you acknowledged this later in your paragraph, so I have no idea why you would claim that I'm ignoring you. Also, I'm examining people who I'm not voting for, despite your insinuation that I'm not. I'm suspicious of your misrep here.

[Isa]

I've had my scumtunnels on DeltaWave and Fakinha, while more of a towntunnel on Neil. No denying.

My question went out to you and not DeltaWave because you're the one in this game who expands his thoughts the most on most of us, but hardly considered what would happen to your read on me if one of your apparent main suspects flips scum, while you've speculated far more in him flipping town, making it seem to me like you KNOW that he'll flip town. Furthermore, DeltaWave actually already said that if Neil flips town, he'd look at Fakinha, implying that he wouldn't have a scumread on me. Granted, it wasn't written outright, but I think it is a fair assumption.

You actually boil it down to this: Whatever Neil flips, I am scum? Yes I know that you're not using the word "scum" to describe me, but face it, "it won't look good for me" is just a rewriting of "you will be pinned as scum".

DeltaWave speculates on one person, Neil. You speculate a lot. It was more interesting to cover you rather than him, and DeltaWave hasn't posted as much about what Day 3 will bring us if Neil flips town/scum except for "I will go for X/Y". You've covered one end of that spectra, but not the other. I wanted a clarification.

I put down a different meaning in the word "buddying", I think. When I think of buddying, I think of befriending someone, not supporting. I've been supporting Neil throughout the game (his later play has been poor though), but I haven't tried to befriend him.

[DeltaWave]

Isa, that's not a fair assumption. I don't know how you could have gotten that from what I said.

[Collyer]

I didn't ignore it. I said, it's hard to get reads in a game this inactive. I have a hard time concentrating on players who don't (or rarely) post. If someone's going to engage in a conversation with me, I'm going to spend more time thinking about them. It seems you acknowledged this later in your paragraph, so I have no idea why you would claim that I'm ignoring you. Also, I'm examining people who I'm not voting for, despite your insinuation that I'm not. I'm suspicious of your misrep here.

That's rubbish, and you know it. Fakinha isn't inactive, nor is Isa, or Thomas, or me for that matter. Why don't you criticise our behaviour? Why do you concentrate more on players who talk to you, are you really telling me that if a player lurks then you don't concentrate on them? That's ridiculous, surely the players who lurk deserve your attention. I didn't misrep you either, I was being sarcastic, my point was that it doesn't matter that these players aren't active, because even if they were, you wouldn't concentrate on them; I didn't think that that was so complicated. There is clear evidence for this too, you replaced in on page 8, and since then, Neil isn't the only player to have been active, yet you've hardly mentioned any one else.

I'm becoming quite frustrated with this. I've clearly asked you to comment on what I think is scummy play from Fakinha, and you refuse. Why?

Isa, just because I speculate more that a player is town than is scum, it doesn't mean I know he is scum, that's a massive reach. When you talk about whatever Neil flips, I'll think you're scum, I think I'll find it hard to see a logical way not to suspect you. Of course, if Neil flips scum then it doesn't mean I'm going to tunnel on you until you're lynched, but I can't logically or reasonably justify your actions from a town perspective. Can you? Go through the same process and see how incriminating your actions look. I just can't see how a town player would buddy so hard on a player without having at least some sort of ulterior motive. If you could explain how your buddying is town like then I'll be very interested to see it. Besides, I did consider both the spectra, and you concede it in your post when you say 'Whatever Neil flips', meaning I've considered both. I feel I may have misunderstood this point though, what spectra haven't I considered? I'm sorry if this is obvious.

[DeltaWave]

I'm saying that I'm going to concentrate more on active players. Why is that surprising?

Anyway, I already described my impressions of Fakinha's early D2 actions as possibly the result of someone who doesn't have much information. I also explained that I find Fakinha's buddying odd. So I've already explained what you're talking about.

[Collyer]

I'm saying that I'm going to concentrate more on active players. Why is that surprising?

You can't be serious? Are you serious telling me that we shouldn't concentrate on players who aren't active? I always thought that the town thing to do was to try and instigate conversation, or seek their replacement, or something. Not just ignore them, like you seem to be suggesting.

Anyway, I already described my impressions of Fakinha's early D2 actions as possibly the result of someone who doesn't have much information. I also explained that I find Fakinha's buddying odd. So I've already explained what you're talking about.

You also said you had a null read on him. However in post 230 I asked you about more than just his lack of reads and his buddying, yet you didn't comment on any of the other stuff once again. It's taken three more times of me asking for you to give this meager answer. What do you think of all the observations I've made of Fakinha, and why do you seem so set on not answering? You also conviniently missed out the parts of my posts where I disprove your weak argument, and ask why you don't comment on the actions of active players other than Neil? Isn't it also true that you misrepped me when you accused me of misrepping you? This isn't the first time that this sort of thing has happened with you either.

[DeltaWave]

In what crazy world does saying "I'm going to concentrate on more active players" = "We shouldn't concentrate on players who aren't active"? Surely you can see the difference between these two statements.

Anyway, point me to a specific post or something that you want me to address so we can quit it with this back and forth stuff.

[Collyer]

In what crazy world does saying "I'm going to concentrate on more active players" = "We shouldn't concentrate on players who aren't active"? Surely you can see the difference between these two statements.

Anyway, point me to a specific post or something that you want me to address so we can quit it with this back and forth stuff.

In saying 'I'm going to concentrate more on active players', you're implying that we should concentrate less on inactive players (incidentally, I don't understand why you can't do both, instead you insist on one only). The choice of the word 'shouldn't' perhaps was wrong, but I still think this stance is anti town.

Great, I paraphrased Fakinha's actions in this post in the second paragraph. However, you can obviously see his actions for yourself; it's interesting that you mention in post 244 your impressions of Fakinha's D2 actions, when most of the incriminating actions I highlighted were on D1.

[DeltaWave]

Yeah, change what I'm saying, add some assumptions, create some implications I never intended, and you come to the conclusion that it's anti-town.

Anyway, you've shown yourself to be crappy at paraphrasing. You add implications and assumptions that were never in the original statement. I can't trust you to accurately describe what anyone else is doing, so show me the originals if you want me to respond to something particular.

[Fakinha]

I'm sorry Fakinha. I never said I don't think Neil is scum. I was talking hypothetically to Delta, and it's quite clear throughout this game that I've attacked Neil. I happen to agree with some of DeltaWave's points about Neil, but am attacking him for not considering anyone else.

I appreciate that Cav made only four posts, but they were insightful. I'd say that in his four posts, he made a more productive contribution than you have in your twenty three. It's not the number of posts that's important, for example, I'm sure everyone would agree that Cav was more use than pinkfloyd ever was, despite pinkfloyd posting twenty five times. I thought it was intersting to see that he replaced into the game, made good points not only about Isa's buddying but also Neil's desire to make his discussion with bv exclusive, then Neil hammers pinkfloyd (therefore preventing Cav from posting again) and Cav dies in the nightkill. Why did you misrepresent and attempt to downplay it? Also, why didn't you comment on my thoughts about you bussing Neil?

About you going at DeltaWave, that's totally ok, just asked if you didn't think neil was scum, you're doing well and I'm sorry that I'm not posting too much but I just CAN'T read too much, I lost myself on the same line... can't focus on anything idk y, stress maybe. Most of my time I've been laying on bed and listening to music to see if I calm down. This was offtopic and personal and it should be ignored because it's not an excuse since I'm not asking for replacement (tho I maybe will if things go on like that), but I think I should've said that.

Now back on topic...
@Cav posts
I mentioned "FOUR" because he didn't post much tho being good posts, I didn't try to downplay you, I'm considerating his posts, tho I need to re-read them everytime I check the game. Also, what does "bussing" means? English is not my mother language and I couldn't understand the meaning using Google, lol.

Isa, if neil flips town, 1st I'm fucked because I'm convinced that he's scum. 2nd, you won't get a town-card with that, oh no you wont.

For last, I get the feeling that Delta is a little too defensive for no reason... y's that? Could you, DeltaWave, sum up your opinions about

everyone

in the game? Even the dead Cav. Pink is useless, you can leave him rotting.

Post a lot, people