[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Junpei]

2 maf 1 town

maf lynches correct maf
maf Night kills town
maf lynches correct maf

gg mafia wins

How does town win?

[callforjudgement]

Town's only method of winning is to determine who the Mafia are, and lynch them on the correct day. This seems very broken, as if the scum don't let on which of them is odd-day and which of them is even-day, town have only a 50% win chance even if they figure out all the other information perfectly.

[BBmolla]

I think the main problem with Jester is that he's a distraction to scumhunting. If he ends the game instantly, it discourages lynching. If he doesn't end the game at all, he's pointless.

I think if there is a setup with a fool, there needs to be a way to get rid of him. This is why I had the venge kills. Dayvig would work too.

If there's a way for the fool to die during the day without being lynched, think about how that'll affect their play.

[Whiskers]

2 maf 1 town

maf lynches correct maf
maf Night kills town
maf lynches correct maf

gg mafia wins

How does town win?

You're right.

I guess the only way to do it is to lynch the MaFools on the incorrect days.

Meh. Make it a MafiaMime team with an even/odd stipulation, add in a load more townies. That way, both Mafia have to be lynched on their correct day to win, and there's plenty of room for a mislynch?

[Junpei]

Sounds like Paris. I don't know, I like the idea of Mafia v Fool v Town. That's one of the reasons I didn't like Paris.

[Whiskers]

K. To each their own. I think Paris looks cool.

[Junpei]

What I have on my list of what I've done so far is:

1) Given the fool a restriction such that it is no longer so overpowered

2) Given town a way to detect both factions that oppose them

3) Given mafia a way to counteract town detection

4) Given town a secret-clear in neighborizer that could be used many ways

I don't know if there was a better way to execute these or not; I'd like to keep my solution to number if possible, but I feel like I've done what I wanted to do finally.

[Whiskers]

The fool is no longer overpowered, and the town has a way to detect it.

The mafia has a way to counteract the town detection, what do the fools get?

[Junpei]

Fools have a stable living environment already. With no vigilante they are a little bit more at ease so to speak. Really this is where I'm a bit lost, I'm not sure what I'm aspiring to. I think that everyone in this game has a stable way to push their factions' victory without anything too swingy.

Fools don't need any abilities in my opinion because

1) I'd have to give it to both fools

2) They have no PRs that they need to distract, and no one to otherwise discover like the town/mafia do. Their only goal is to be lynched on day X, and I can't think of a fair ability to make that more accessible, and I don't know if it needs to be more accessible.

[Whiskers]

But the fools can be detected by the Mad Scientist (giving the town a way to detect both factions that oppose them). If a fool is detected, then he'll never be lynched. If a fool is cleared somehow (detected "incorrectly), then he'll never be lynched. It's a race of, "how fast can I get myself lynched" vs "How fast can I find the fools"

[Junpei]

True...

But the only way a fool could get cleared is if MS detects a mafia with a village, and the mafia is lynched. But then he wouldn't out an inno, rather he would wait until the last possible juncture to claim, and likely by that time it becomes practical for the fool to CC if he hasn't won.

[Whiskers]

Your thing has a roleblocker, right?

What if fools are detected as "no result," as though the MS had been roleblocked?

The whole CC thing is really bad though, because that means 50/50, assuming you "lynch between cop claims." (which happens only in LyLo, from my experience)

Here's what really happens:
Lynch some townies.
MSci gets a "different" report, then one of them is eventually lynched.
The MSci outs that the other one is mafia, and the correct day fool CCs.
The second player from the "different" report is lynched (yay, we caught a mafia!)
One MSci claim is Nightkilled. Either A, the real MSci is killed, revealing the other as the fool, or B, the fool is killed, eliminating him from the win pool.

Is there a Gun-giver/Vig-maker setup yet?

[Junpei]

Well I'll address your post in full later, but why would mafia kill the MSci again when it is CC'd by fool? To... eliminate the confusion?

[Whiskers]

If the fool wins, the Mafia doesn't.
If the MSci stays alive, there is a chance of outting the Mafia.

[BBmolla]

@Whiskers: I made one a while back.

Gunmakers and Funtakers

13 Players
Mafia:
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Day Bomb(If shot during day, dies, but also kills whoever shot them.)
1 Mafia Roleblocker

Town:
1 Day-Doc(Chooses someone at night to protect during the day)
1 Night-Doc(Normal Doc)
2 Gunmakers(Gives a gun to another player each night. The player is told they recieved the gun and may use it during the day to daykill someone.)
6 VTs

?

[Junpei]

Town day doc seems very odd, but very good name. Why is there a town day doc?

Whiskers, while it is possible to out mafia with Msci, it is hard to do so, but I can see the possible trade-off, it could go both ways, but I don't really like that way. I need to figure out how likely it is though. I just don't think the odds of Fool-Mafia > Mafia death > Out report seems likely as percentage wise. And I also don't think that it is toxic to the gamestate.

Also, if fool cc Msci.. Mafia RB one, and if it claims no report, they know its real, and who to push a lynch on. Otherwise, they know it's fool, and who to push a lynch on. So no kills needed.

[Junpei]

Oh, and also: Town would have to decide if it really is a fool gambit or a mafia ploy from scumhunting in past days. With 8 vts, it's 11v2v2, which is 4 days prior, but I think that 6 VTs is better, making 3 days prior assuming they lynched townies.

edit: As for showing as no report, then if one dies, the Msci essentially has a fool report on someone, which increases the odds of this, and probably not good. Although it'd be funny if 2 fools were investigated and one dies, I don't really know if that is the solution, but eh. Thinking about it some more, maybe it is a good idea, but then the Msci becomes a lot less useful.

[Whiskers]

@Junpei: With the Mafia Roleblocker, the MSci doesn't know if he's been blocked or if he has a fool. Also, since he can't get a report on the same player again, the fool and one other player are blocked from getting a investigated.

@BBMolla: See, I was thinking the other way around--

Spoiler:

1 Goon
1 Vig-maker (Gives a one-shot Dayvig ability to one Townie each day. Compulsive.)

5 Vanilla townies.

A Dayvig does not have to use his ability, but expires once a lynch is reached.
The Dayvig is not revealed upon shooting.
Daykill does not end the Day.

Needs some tweaks, since this basically becomes a game of, "Whose Dayvig claim do we believe?" and the real one is confirmed town and the fake one is confirmed mafia.
Here's an adjusted version:

Spoiler:

1 Mafia Vig-maker
1 Fool
3 Vanilla Townies.

Makes it a two-Day mini-game.

Mafia gives Gun to townies. Must shoot, must Lynch.

Closer?

[Junpei]

So then, every time there's a different alignment, there is 1 guilty for sure in the two. So I guess it makes it more useful perhaps?

6 VTs
1 town neighborizer (night/day)
1 town Mad Scientist (compares 2 players, same/different alignment report, if picks fool gets "no report")
1 town doctor
1 mafia RB
1 vanilla mafia
1 odd day fool
1 even day fool

Hm.. maybe we should get rid of doctor as well..

Whiskers, imo any game that ends in mafiavfoolvtown doesn't need a vig shot. Thing is, person with the shot is confirmed town. And you obviously aren't giving mafia an NK so...

[Whiskers]

"So then, every time there's a different alignment, there is 1 guilty for sure in the two. So I guess it makes it more useful perhaps?"
Isn't that what it was before?

You could leave the TownDoc in (I don't see the point, personally, but why not? Gives fools something to claim.)
I might suggest making the Vanilla Goon a Backup Mafia Role-Blocker (because after the Roleblocker is lynched, all results of "No Result" are at least 1 fool), but The game might be able to handle it without.

[Junpei]

Well before you could get a different alignment report with a fool and a town.

I was just thinking once the Msci is cleared, you could doc him, and town could gather too many clears to the finish, but after more thought, that isn't an issue at all, and the fools remove any possible doubt of that. So I agree, keep the doc, I put it in there to make Neighborizer less vulnerable/MSci less. I would expect a lot of cool things to possibly happen in the neighborizer QT.

Back up RB makes sense, and I think that mafia should be able to submit a factional kill and an ability in the same night. If we go with your idea (and it looks like we are) then a mafia RB needs to be constant.

Hm.. I think that this is good..

6 Vt
1 MSci
1 doc
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia rb
1 b-up mafia rb

I will have to do some thinking on balance issues/broken strategies/optimal strategies to make sure that we are in a good place here, I like the chances we've made though.

[Whiskers]

Oh, see, I was thinking that the Neighborizer was the role that gets confirmed to a player of choice each night. Like, her night action is, "Confirm me as town to Junpei" and the Mod sends Junpei a Pm that says, "Whiskers is confirmed town."

One that recruits Neighbors for nighttalk seems overpowered and out of place... It doesn't confirm their role, it doesn't really help, it just gives a bunch of random players nighttalk.

[Quilford]

I feel like you've poured water into three glasses, realised that one glass has too much water in it and poured more water into the other two, then realised one of

them

now has too much water and poured more water into the other two instead -- and now the glasses are completely full.

i.e. I think it could be simplified.

1 fool (can select investigation immunity or 1-shot BP/lynch immunity) (wincon: wins when lynched if its lynch means the mafia gains a majority/equals the town)
1 mafia rolecop
1 mafia goon
2 of (cop, doc, JK, tracker)
9 VTs

or something like that anyway I have no idea how balanced that would be

[Junpei]

Quilford it'd be impossible to balance that I think well because the bigger it is the harder it is for fool. And fools' victory isn't really in his hands so much it is with the other two factions.

Whiskers, they'd also have day talk, and it only confirms one person. But it is a trade off because mafia could find out, or fool could claim in the neighborhood, claim Msci for example, and mess with town. Mafia could too. Or perhaps claim doctor, or maybe neighborizer dies and there's 2 people left and etc... I really like having it in the game.

[mykonian]

I feel like you've poured water into three glasses, realised that one glass has too much water in it and poured more water into the other two, then realised one of

them

now has too much water and poured more water into the other two instead -- and now the glasses are completely full.

i.e. I think it could be simplified.

1 fool (can select investigation immunity or 1-shot BP/lynch immunity) (wincon: wins when lynched if its lynch means the mafia gains a majority/equals the town)
1 mafia rolecop
1 mafia goon
2 of (cop, doc, JK, tracker)
9 VTs

or something like that anyway I have no idea how balanced that would be

Just compare it to a setup you do know: 2 goons, 1 rolecop, 2 town powerrole, 9VT's. That probably could be run without trouble. And now you change the goon for a fool, who doesn't know who the mafia is, and who can only win at the day after lylo/mylo. I'm pretty sure this is town-sided.