Animal Rescue: petsPick (Game Over!)

[Quilford]

Just look at the vanilla vig (i.e. could only vig vanillas) in PYP5, Quilford. Roles were distributed by a draft system, so alignments of the vanillas was fairly random (as it turned out, none of the scum were vanilla) - still a completely valid role and beneficial too.

Ah, but here, Role PMs were written after alignment was randomised.

IT'S ARBITRARY WHO HE KILLS. NO MATTER WHO HE PICKS, WHETHER HE THINKS THEY'RE TOWN OR SCUM, HE WILL DIE UNLESS THEY'RE A CAT. HOW THE SHIT IS THIS FAIR ON HIM UNLESS HE HAS SOME WAY TO DISCERN WHO SOMEONE'S PET IS, HMM?

Because people are never in a position where they'd claim their pet. (This observation basically amounts to "he's better off not using his action early on"; not a big deal.)

It's not just early on. It's until someone claims that they're a cat.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

so

who wants to test it?

Zorzor'll announce it, no worries.

[Kublai Khan]

Last, no animals were harmed in the production of this game. Human owners are killed, not their pets. The mafia is trying to kill people so they can take their pets to Petvana. Know that even the mafia wants what is best for your critter.

I am Mao-Tse-Tung, and I am a town assassin cat. Each night I can decide to visit a player. If that player has a cat, I will kill him. If that player has a dog, I will die. The flavour is connected with the real biography of my former cat Mao, who was killed by a dog.

But why does he kill other cats? What's the flavor reasoning for that?

NINJA'D. Mao was an extremely aggressive cat. No other cat in the neighborhood as long as he was alive.

@Cogito Ergo Sum - Why are you so terrible at this game? Why waste a governance on someone who is clearly scum and you would lynch tomorrow anyways?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Ah, but here, Role PMs were written after alignment was randomised.

Which means, given say 2 scum cats, it makes even more sense as a role? I don't see the problem.

[Untrod Tripod]

Last, no animals were harmed in the production of this game. Human owners are killed, not their pets. The mafia is trying to kill people so they can take their pets to Petvana. Know that even the mafia wants what is best for your critter.

I am Mao-Tse-Tung, and I am a town assassin cat. Each night I can decide to visit a player. If that player has a cat, I will kill him. If that player has a dog, I will die. The flavour is connected with the real biography of my former cat Mao, who was killed by a dog.

But why does he kill other cats? What's the flavor reasoning for that?

NINJA'D. Mao was an extremely aggressive cat. No other cat in the neighborhood as long as he was alive.

@Cogito Ergo Sum - Why are you so terrible at this game? Why waste a governance on someone who is clearly scum and you would lynch tomorrow anyways?

OH SHI-

yeah that claim is bullshit

[Quilford]

UNVOTE:

[Quilford]

Ah, but here, Role PMs were written after alignment was randomised.

Which means, given say 2 scum cats, it makes even more sense as a role? I don't see the problem.

It makes even more sense as a third party role, yes, considering lewarcher's actions and claim.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Last, no animals were harmed in the production of this game. Human owners are killed, not their pets. The mafia is trying to kill people so they can take their pets to Petvana. Know that even the mafia wants what is best for your critter.

I am Mao-Tse-Tung, and I am a town assassin cat. Each night I can decide to visit a player. If that player has a cat, I will kill him. If that player has a dog, I will die. The flavour is connected with the real biography of my former cat Mao, who was killed by a dog.

But why does he kill other cats? What's the flavor reasoning for that?

NINJA'D. Mao was an extremely aggressive cat. No other cat in the neighborhood as long as he was alive.

@Cogito Ergo Sum - Why are you so terrible at this game? Why waste a governance on someone who is clearly scum and you would lynch tomorrow anyways?

Okay, that might be a valid point. But part of the plan I was in favour was him getting lynched tomorrow if he was still alive, so don't know what you're complaining about with the second comment.

[Amrun]

IT'S ARBITRARY WHO HE KILLS. NO MATTER WHO HE PICKS, WHETHER HE THINKS THEY'RE TOWN OR SCUM, HE WILL DIE UNLESS THEY'RE A CAT. HOW THE SHIT IS THIS FAIR ON HIM UNLESS HE HAS SOME WAY TO DISCERN WHO SOMEONE'S PET IS, HMM?

I think you've just demonstrated why I don't think he's an SK... That's a really difficult win condition to achieve. It's still possible, but come on, it's a lot more plausible as a town limited vig.

@Amrun - You're filling in details that aren't there. If lewarcher82 had said "Hey, we really shouldn't reveal anything about our pets, we don't know if there could be a Death-Note type killer out there." (or some sort of awareness-raising similar statement that reveals his specific game mechanic), then yeah I would be on the same page. But he didn't, and you can't get away with just imagining that he did.

P.EDIT - A short conversation with my wife and I think i got ninja'd by 2 pages worth of posts. Egads.

I don't know why you think he should have come out and said "there could be a death note type killer." That would be SUCH a softclaim, and town vigs should always be in the business of not telling scum that they're vigilantes! Are you serious?

If he had said that, I would have been like HOLD UP WTF.

He responded with, "Holy crap, stop claiming animals because it's fucking dumb."

Guess what? IT IS FUCKING DUMB. HE'S RIGHT.

If he's telling the truth, he has reason to know why it's fucking dumb, so it makes PERFECT SENSE to react that way.

[Kublai Khan]

I don't know why you think he should have come out and said "there could be a death note type killer." That would be SUCH a softclaim, and town vigs should always be in the business of not telling scum that they're vigilantes! Are you serious?

If he had said that, I would have been like HOLD UP WTF.

He responded with, "Holy crap, stop claiming animals because it's fucking dumb."

Guess what? IT IS FUCKING DUMB. HE'S RIGHT.

If he's telling the truth, he has reason to know why it's fucking dumb, so it makes PERFECT SENSE to react that way.

Except that part of his claim is that dogs kill him. So while he might not want to encourage pet claiming, he certainly would not discourage it either.

[Amrun]

I don't know why you think he should have come out and said "there could be a death note type killer." That would be SUCH a softclaim, and town vigs should always be in the business of not telling scum that they're vigilantes! Are you serious?

If he had said that, I would have been like HOLD UP WTF.

He responded with, "Holy crap, stop claiming animals because it's fucking dumb."

Guess what? IT IS FUCKING DUMB. HE'S RIGHT.

If he's telling the truth, he has reason to know why it's fucking dumb, so it makes PERFECT SENSE to react that way.

Except that part of his claim is that dogs kill him. So while he might not want to encourage pet claiming, he certainly would not discourage it either.

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT

If he were interested in self-preservation over the town's interests, he would not discourage it.

THAT'S NOT WHAT HE DID

Town motivation. See, see, see?

I don't know how to explain myself any better.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You do realize this entire discussion has been made moot by my governing lew, right?

[Amrun]

Partially, yes. For today. But I'm probing Kahn's alignment right now, shhhhh

[Amrun]

Oh, thank you, ces, btw

[Kublai Khan]

You do realize this entire discussion has been made moot by my governing lew, right?

Eh, not entirely. If Amrun can convince me that lewarcher82's actions are plausibly town, then I have to sheep her. Also this.

Generally, I think she's ascribing a motivation that isn't evidenced by lewarcher82's actual words. So we may just be deadlocked.

[Quilford]

IT'S ARBITRARY WHO HE KILLS. NO MATTER WHO HE PICKS, WHETHER HE THINKS THEY'RE TOWN OR SCUM, HE WILL DIE UNLESS THEY'RE A CAT. HOW THE SHIT IS THIS FAIR ON HIM UNLESS HE HAS SOME WAY TO DISCERN WHO SOMEONE'S PET IS, HMM?

I think you've just demonstrated why I don't think he's an SK... That's a really difficult win condition to achieve. It's still possible, but come on, it's a lot more plausible as a town limited vig.

Of course if he were a Serial Killer he wouldn't just have a killing ability and that's it.

But Town Limited Vigs, like the example CES provided in PYP, don't

die

when they target someone they can't kill. Therefore I think he is a serial killer with extra powers to help him on his way. Otherwise he would be useless as town.

Nevertheless, I have unvoted, and it wasn't because of CES' claim

[Llamarble]

Eh, mafia alignment actually makes more sense than SK.
A hard to use vig-power gives scum something to strategize on together and a vehicle for massclaim punishment.
Just like Baby Spice in Zor's Strategy Mafia game.
His described role doesn't sound like a legitimate serial killing role because of the 'you die if you shoot the wrong thing' aspect and the reduced target pool.
The way he claimed, rolling it out in two phases and mentioning Mao was killed by a dog, sounded like he has the role he has claimed even if he's scum.

Also scum totally gave town useful strategy advice (scum had ways of killing through doors) in Strategy Mafia.
Telling people not to massclaim is like the easiest thing to say town sounding things about ever.

[Amrun]

You do realize this entire discussion has been made moot by my governing lew, right?

Eh, not entirely. If Amrun can convince me that lewarcher82's actions are plausibly town, then I have to sheep her. Also this.

Generally, I think she's ascribing a motivation that isn't evidenced by lewarcher82's actual words. So we may just be deadlocked.

But you still need to prove how your explanation makes sense.

You are like, "Aha! He would do this thing he didn't do as scum!"

And then use that as a scumtell. I feel like I have to be missing something.

[Untrod Tripod]

So why is everyone else completely ignoring the revelation that lew claimed that his flavor is that he kills cats when the rules specifically state that killing roles kill owners?

[Amrun]

Where does it say that? I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing "owners whose pets have outlived them," which is not necessarily a blanket statement on flavor, and perhaps just a nicer way of putting it.

[Kublai Khan]

@Amrun - Primarily, I disagree with your assumption that lewarcher82 squalshed species-claiming on the grounds of "other specialty vigs may exist". I think you've ascribed him a motivation that isn't supported by his words.

On the second point (335), you do have a, uh, point. However it's the type of thing that if lewarcher82 had pointed it out as breadcrumbed proof of his role instead of coming up with a contrived "plan", I would have been more likely to accept it. Since he didn't, your thoughts about why he did what he did are overblown.

[Kublai Khan]

Where does it say that? I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing "owners whose pets have outlived them," which is not necessarily a blanket statement on flavor, and perhaps just a nicer way of putting it.

post 327.

[Amrun]

No, I didn't say "other specialty vigs." It could be that, or mafia, or third party, or anything.

I agree it would have been more compelling had he brought it up himself; as I said, I don't think this is something to hang the entirety of a town read on.

You asked me if I could come up with town motivation for it. I did.

I'm trying to show reasonable doubt here. I think I succeeded.

[Llamarble]

I mean, he said that he would kill the pet's owner rather than the pet itself when he claimed anyway.

[Amrun]

Just looked and Llamarble is right.