Open 354: Twin Trap in Morecambe (Concluded)


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:56 pm

Post by don_johnson »

oh, and thanks for addressing 146. i challenge you to find the "insults". when i say "please," i mean please. i'm not trying to be a smartass, i am trying to get you to engage in a conversation where you actually contribute something. you know, like an answer to questions:

dj wrote:

1) what was not "pro-town" about my reaction?

2) why didn't you vote me when i allegedly "advocated passivity"?(you answered this briefly, but it don't make sense when added to the other info here. you claim it wasn't enough for you to determine my alignment, but when i ask you what it was about my next post that caused you to vote me, you say "it wasn't your next post." so clarify this if you can. thanks)

3) you do realize that by not waiting for those 2 players, you are in fact "advocating passivity"?(i realize that the way this is worded somewhat limits your answers, but the point being made is valid. do you disagree? if not, why not?)

4) please explain this again(referring to 132). i can't find it in your previous post. as far as i can tell, your argument is "by asking those questions, dj is sitting on the sidelines until someone does something scummy." ok. even if we accept that theory of passivity being a scumtell, you employed the exact same strategy. you posted an unexplained bandwagon vote. then... you waited on the sidelines until someone did something. then you attacked that something. coincidentally, you attacked someone for putting you at L-1. by not waiting for 2 players to react to your vote "gambit" you not only shortchanged information you could have used to better scumhunt, you shortchanged the entire town from getting more info as to the alignments of the two inactive players. great job. you arte scummy by your own logic. the only difference between you and me from a logical standpoint is that "allegedly" laid out an unexplained bandwagon vote to "bait" someone so you could attack. imo, your behavior is way more in tune with scum behavior than mine as you describe it. if you are meaning something else, or if i am misunderstanding your 132, just let me know.

5) is that a townie post to make on page 3(4 or whatever it was)?(see my previous post for reference)

6) maybe you need to learn english better?(sorry if this hurt your feelings, but i have to wonder if your inability to read and understand the nuances of my language may be hindering your ability to interpret my posts. for realz, has it occurred to you that maybe you are not communicating your thoughts precisely?)


thats 5 pretty legitimate questions i asked which you ignored. (6) is reasonable, but i admit it could come off as sarcastic. but that doesn't excuse from answering the previous 5. so whatever. if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:50 pm

Post by Guy_Named_Riggs »

Adc75 wrote:
Guy_Named_Riggs wrote:I think narwhal is town because the way he's been questioning and posting, makes me think town. Also somewhat of a gut read


Can you direct the town to the posts that make you feel like Narwhal's town?

It was more of a gut read than anything else

also, Jora
what situation do you want my commentary on?
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:03 pm

Post by Jora »

This: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3571933
Who is your top suspect and why? I recall your vote was an RV, right?
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:38 pm

Post by Trevor »

I change my mind, opa's last posts feel town. Adc is the best lynch today still.
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:18 pm

Post by J »

Unvote
Vote: Adc75

Opa vs. DJ is reading more like TvT to me as I am skim-reading when I have time. Here but not here and the like.

I like Trevor/GNR/Opa as towny and DJ is a feel for town. The rest can probably go for now, moreso Adc at the current time. I don't mind Thomas going. The other two I can't remember make me worry.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:20 pm

Post by J »

Dag on. X_X" That shows my tiredness about forgetting to bold.

Unvote
Vote: Adc75


Also checked the front page, yeah Sampson/Daft worry me and can deffo go. I will go for any lynch of those four at the moment and to get me onto DJ, I would need a pretty compelling case for a D1 lynch of that slot. Till then, fine with him. Gonna keep watching the thread and the like but otherwise still too busy with theatre and stuffs.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:36 pm

Post by J »

Actually after reading some more, bump GNR down to null, possibly town lean. I'm giving him more leeway than I should. His posts are not directly towny but have some town-points in them. However, I can see the scum-intent behind them if he is indeed scum. There is still more town intent it seems over scum intent to outweigh it sooo I'm still okay with GNR toDay considering things as they are now.

Adc is the only one I really want dead at the moment. Samp/Daft/Thomas are more throw aways (sorry! I really cannot think of a better phrase at this hour!. T.T), if you get what I mean by that.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:07 pm

Post by Sampson »

Trevor wrote:I change my mind, opa's last posts feel town. Adc is the best lynch today still.

Can you be more specific? What makes them feel so town to you?
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:57 pm

Post by Sampson »

@J: You realize you have more scumreads than there are scum, right? You're basically saying you're willing to lynch half of the players here. That just doesn't sit well with me. It makes it way too easy to just switch from one bandwagon to another. I do agree about Opa and DJ being town, though. The motivation behind Opa/Jora's posts seems to be largely (if not primarily) motivated for emotional/personal reasons. I know you're on V/LA and all, but until you explain your reads, my vote's on you.

Vote: [J]
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Post by Thomas »

J wrote:Opa vs. DJ is reading more like TvT to me as I am skim-reading when I have time.
Why is it T vs. T? I still don't see it. Do you think it's because both are getting really aggressive?

I just iso'ed Adc75 and I noticed most posts are active lurking and only one sentence long. I would like him to share more thoughts. Adc75, what do you think of Opa vs. DJ?

Opa and DJ: enough with this 1 vs. 1. It's not helping find scum.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:23 pm

Post by Jora »

Thomas wrote:I just iso'ed Adc75 and I noticed most posts are active lurking and only one sentence long. I would like him to share more thoughts. Adc75, what do you think of Opa vs. DJ?

You, my dear sir, are not watching the thread. Adc75 was the first who shared his thoughts on this situation.

In other news, I reviewed my case on don_johnson.

And I find an interesting detail. He can disprove many of my arguments with this link:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17666
This is his recently completed game of which he is very proud, I guess.
What is interesting there?
This situation:
Wickedestjr [VT] wrote:Firstly, on page 1 when everybody was talking about [townie name]'s selfvote, [scumname], rather than comment on the selfvote, made two jokey posts which both completely ignored the serious discussion. It wasn't until after nearly everyone had commented on it (and it was clear what most of the town was thinking) that he actually started posting seriously.

Which actually compromises my huntwork. *Recall townread from narwahl.*
There was also a successful D1 quicklynch of that particular [scumname] ended within 5 days from the start.
Which compromises my "do not put L-1" argument.
There was also a passive play by don_johnson low posting, avoiding prods etc.
Yet he managed to win the game.
Still I don't find none of those things to be good. But I think this may have influenced his current views on a game.
(Also he was accused of wall-shit posting in another game this day :lol: , so nothing is out of ordinary, I guess)

WELL, FUCK THIS. I GO TOWN ON DON.

Unvote.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:44 pm

Post by Jora »

All of you, Trevor, Sampson, daftnarwhal, Thomas are having less posts then our Mod. And this is bad. I don't like lurkers.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:34 am

Post by J »

Sampson wrote:@J: You realize you have more scumreads than there are scum, right? You're basically saying you're willing to lynch half of the players here. That just doesn't sit well with me. It makes it way too easy to just switch from one bandwagon to another. I do agree about Opa and DJ being town, though. The motivation behind Opa/Jora's posts seems to be largely (if not primarily) motivated for emotional/personal reasons. I know you're on V/LA and all, but until you explain your reads, my vote's on you.

Vote: [J]


Yes I do realize I have more "scum-reads" then there are scum. I also did not say I have scum-reads on You/Daft but you guys are just null who I don't really mind seeing going because I do not mind losing nulls because I could be wrong on them. Adc is the only real scum-read I have and Thomas is just a lean.

I don't get why you are voting me really because the action you are saying I am doing is not scummy really. =P

Thomas wrote:
J wrote:Opa vs. DJ is reading more like TvT to me as I am skim-reading when I have time.
Why is it T vs. T? I still don't see it. Do you think it's because both are getting really aggressive?


The reason I am finding them more town from both sides is because of the intent of the posts behind both sides, I don't see scum motivation from either side trying to manipulate the argument in their favour. Why don't you see it as TvT? What makes one of them scum to you? Is the aggressiveness and rancor the reason you are judging them?
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:26 am

Post by Johhog »

VOTECOUNT 1.6


Trevor
: Thomas
(L-4)

Jora (3)
: Guy_Named_Riggs, Trevor, don_johnson
(L-2)

[J] (2)
: daftnarwhal, Sampson
(L-3)

Adc75
: [J]
(L-4)


Not voting
: Adc75, Jora

V/LA
: [J] (Nov 13), Guy_Named_Riggs (Nov 16), Jora (Activity overview says Dec 12 which I won't allow. Please clarify)

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2011-11-25 04:36:09)
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:36 am

Post by Jora »

<---- I just like the fancy ribbon. I will be posting ordinarily.

Jora wrote:@
Mod
, I ask force replacement of a player named don_johnson. He keep insulting me. I asked him to type my username correctly OR to call me Jora.

Not granted.

//Mod


Spoiler:
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:17 am

Post by daftnarwhal »

J wrote:
Sampson wrote:@J: You realize you have more scumreads than there are scum, right? You're basically saying you're willing to lynch half of the players here. That just doesn't sit well with me. It makes it way too easy to just switch from one bandwagon to another. I do agree about Opa and DJ being town, though. The motivation behind Opa/Jora's posts seems to be largely (if not primarily) motivated for emotional/personal reasons. I know you're on V/LA and all, but until you explain your reads, my vote's on you.

Vote: [J]


Yes I do realize I have more "scum-reads" then there are scum. I also did not say I have scum-reads on You/Daft but you guys are just null who I don't really mind seeing going because I do not mind losing nulls because I could be wrong on them. Adc is the only real scum-read I have and Thomas is just a lean.

I don't get why you are voting me really because the action you are saying I am doing is not scummy really. =P

Thomas wrote:
J wrote:Opa vs. DJ is reading more like TvT to me as I am skim-reading when I have time.
Why is it T vs. T? I still don't see it. Do you think it's because both are getting really aggressive?


The reason I am finding them more town from both sides is because of the intent of the posts behind both sides, I don't see scum motivation from either side trying to manipulate the argument in their favour. Why don't you see it as TvT? What makes one of them scum to you? Is the aggressiveness and rancor the reason you are judging them?

But are you completely sure that your townreads are actually town? Or your scumreads? If Adc is your real scum-read and Thomas is a lean then just say that, and push for a lynch on them. I agree that it makes you look like you are covering your tracks. If you have a null on me, fine, but being okay with lynching nulls is not a good idea for a town player. I think that scum would say something like that. And, even if you are not scum, it helps them. Now they know that they can push any of several players and you will be fine with it. Do you think it is beneficial for town to lynch someone who you view as null?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:26 am

Post by Thomas »

Jora wrote:You, my dear sir, are not watching the thread. Adc75 was the first who shared his thoughts on this situation.
In only 1-2 lines... He should post more than that.

J wrote:The reason I am finding them more town from both sides is because of the intent of the posts behind both sides, I don't see scum motivation from either side trying to manipulate the argument in their favour. Why don't you see it as TvT? What makes one of them scum to you? Is the aggressiveness and rancor the reason you are judging them?
I did not say one of them is scummy. I have just not taken a stance yet so from my eyes, both are null at this time. I suppose the aggressiveness could be a slight town-tell here for both because I really doubt scum would want to attract so much attention right now and it has brought Jora all the way to L-1.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:01 am

Post by don_johnson »

i think its prety normal to have a larger lynch pool than there are scum. especially on day 1.

Thomas wrote:I did not say one of them is scummy. I have just not taken a stance yet so from my eyes, both are null at this time. I suppose the aggressiveness could be a slight town-tell here for both because I really doubt scum would want to attract so much attention right now and it has brought Jora all the way to L-1.


^^ this i don't follow. it seems you are trying to have the argument both ways. if someone says the argument is "town on town" and you "don't see it" then that means you still have reservations. I guess i see your point when i actually say it out loud, but "null" is a read and not an alignment, so i think generally when someone says i "don't see them as town" it implies that you see them as scum. but this could be a misunderstanding of sorts.

i think sampson comes off the worst in the last few pages, but i would have to reread to make sure and qualify that statement. i don't have the time now. i would also like to look at J.

daft wrote:But are you completely sure that your townreads are actually town? Or your scumreads? If Adc is your real scum-read and Thomas is a lean then just say that, and push for a lynch on them. I agree that it makes you look like you are covering your tracks. If you have a null on me, fine, but being okay with lynching nulls is not a good idea for a town player. I think that scum would say something like that. And, even if you are not scum, it helps them. Now they know that they can push any of several players and you will be fine with it. Do you think it is beneficial for town to lynch someone who you view as null?


i would push for the lynch i think is scummy, but i would certainly have no problem lynching a null read on day 1. so i'm not sure i like this post either. again, i see the intent of the poster here, but i think i just disagree with the analysis. of course, the longer you play this game, the more unorthodox your play can be, and the more different playstyles you learn to accept. meh.

unvote


i do think opa is town. he was accumulating no pressure for his tunneling on me and so had no motivation to drop his case in such a manner. sorry, i meant "jora". ;)

i work this weekend and finish up with a big dinner sunday night, so i will try and clarify my suspects monday morning unless i find more time. there are a couple other posts i want to comment on, but i don't have the time.
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:48 pm

Post by Sampson »

[J] wrote:Yes I do realize I have more "scum-reads" then there are scum. I also did not say I have scum-reads on You/Daft but you guys are just null who I don't really mind seeing going because I do not mind losing nulls because I could be wrong on them. Adc is the only real scum-read I have and Thomas is just a lean.

I don't get why you are voting me really because the action you are saying I am doing is not scummy really. =P

Well, I was originally voting you because of the lack of reasoning you gave for people you said you'd like to see go (which I assumed were scumreads), especially when you named four of them. But now when you say this:


Also checked the front page, yeah Sampson/Daft worry me and can deffo go.
I will go for any lynch of those four at the moment
and to get me onto DJ, I would need a pretty compelling case for a D1 lynch of that slot. Till then, fine with him. Gonna keep watching the thread and the like but otherwise still too busy with theatre and stuffs.

It stands out to me. I don't understand why someone that's town would lynch someone they don't think is scum, even if they think they could be wrong about them. You can be wrong about scumreads, too. You lynch who you think is scummy, not someone who isn't.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:45 pm

Post by Thomas »

don_johnson wrote:^^ this i don't follow. it seems you are trying to have the argument both ways. if someone says the argument is "town on town" and you "don't see it" then that means you still have reservations. I guess i see your point when i actually say it out loud, but "null" is a read and not an alignment, so i think generally when someone says i "don't see them as town" it implies that you see them as scum. but this could be a misunderstanding of sorts.
When I started writing that reply I had not taken a stance yet but by the end I did sort of take a stance after reading the whole reply from [J].
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:18 pm

Post by J »

Sampson, The reason I am okay with lynching them, is because of the fact I could be wrong on them. I don't mind losing nulls/null-scum leans because I could be wrong on them. I am wanting to lynch those I find are scummy, look at my votes and what I am doing. Where did I say I am not lynching people who are scummy? =3
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:25 pm

Post by J »

But are you completely sure that your townreads are actually town? Or your scumreads? If Adc is your real scum-read and Thomas is a lean then just say that, and push for a lynch on them. I agree that it makes you look like you are covering your tracks. If you have a null on me, fine, but being okay with lynching nulls is not a good idea for a town player. I think that scum would say something like that. And, even if you are not scum, it helps them. Now they know that they can push any of several players and you will be fine with it. Do you think it is beneficial for town to lynch someone who you view as null?


Daft, no I am not completely sure of my town reads, nor my scum-reads. How can anyone be super convinced on D1 and this early in the game. Based on how this game is going thus far, that's my views. That is exactly what I said with Adc and that's why my vote is there. Thomas is a lean and if votes piled onto him, I wouldn't mind but I'm not pushing him because he is a lean.

Covering my tracks? Who said that? o_O Also how am I doing such a thing because I am keeping my mind open to the thread. How is being fine with lynching nulls not fine? By saying that statement, I got reactions out of it. I also gauged for how others felt based on it. I
also
have no problem with getting rid of nulls for me because I have no read on them so if they flip town, there are stuff to follow based on their interactions and if they are scum, then good for us.

Do you really think I'd just be like "Oh they are pushing a null, I'm okay with this."? Nooooo way in hell my good sir.

Town are not going to sheep to my thoughts nor do I expect them too, people should lynch who they wanna lynch. If people have another view on one of my nulls and wanna lynch them, then have at it. I, on the other hand, will try to lynch my scum-picks. =P

You are attacking me very mechanically. No likey.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:13 pm

Post by Jora »

[J] wrote:I have no read on them so if they flip town, there are stuff to follow based on their interactions

I've always been wondering how does it works. Could you enlighten me?
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:25 pm

Post by J »

A connection on a town flip is who they questioned, who they were looking at, others views on that slot, and a few other arrays of info based on flips. Flips are wonderous because they illuminate so many paths. <3

It's kind of why I abhor D1 with a passion.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Post by Trevor »

Sampson wrote:@J: You realize you have more scumreads than there are scum, right?
Vote: [J]


Are you serious? That attack is terrible. I had to reread it a couple times just to understand where the scum motivation was.

Unvote
,
Vote: Sampson
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