A Feast for Crows Mafia - Valar Morghulis.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^But its not funny that we're this close to the deadline and you have no scum reads??

Better to be unsure than wrong. That's why I'm not you.

[Benmage]

So you're proposing a no lynch?

[Magister Ludi]

Sorry, been busy. Diddin lynch is agogo still in my books.

[zoraster]

So you're proposing a no lynch?

No lynch for the win!

[greenknight]

Sorry, been busy. Diddin lynch is agogo still in my books.

So why do you think Diddin is scum... ?

[Eddard Stark]

Day 1, Votecount 28

Oversoul (7) - Magua, diddin, Hasdgfas, Deity of Flame, Monday, Cogito Ergo Sum, Wraith

Greenknight (1) - ooba

Mastermind of Sin (7) Plum, greenknight, Oversoul, Empking, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Zdenek

diddin (2) - Magister Ludi, Albert B. Rampage
DTMaster (1) - Mina
Empking (1) - Shadow1psc
Magister Ludi (1) - Feysal

Not voting

(3) Mockingjaye, Mastermind of Sin, DTMaster

With 23 votes in play it takes 12 to lynch.

• Deadline for Day 1
  : 15:29 GMT on the 17th of November.
  
• Countdown
  : (expired on 2011-11-17 11:29:00)
  
• Please point out any mistakes in the votecount.
  
• I'll begin looking for a Deity of Flame replacement. They have until I find one to post.

[zoraster]

Deadline Accelerate

[Benmage]

Sorry, been busy. Diddin lynch is agogo still in my books.

So why do you think Diddin is scum... ?

This... plus the fact that there is zero chance of him being lynched. So you're wasting your vote here.

Ludi

what is your impression of MoS and Oversoul?

[Wraith]

@Benmage: This is pretty much why I'm not a huge fan of the MoS wagon right now - while you, Plum, and MoI are townreads for me, Empking is lurking/sheeping, Oversoul is trying to save himself with a counterwagon, and greenknight has been said to be a scumread by a lot of players (such as you yourself).

You know what? Typing that out made me realize it's a little hypocritical, considering who's on this wagon with me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you're proposing a no lynch?

Of course not. But I'm not going to randomly choose to lynch someone who I don't have a decent reason to believe is scum. That would be retarded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

11) Mastermind of Sin (Jaime Lannister)

I think that his attack on Benmage was pretty bad, just because it only took into account one of Benmage's actions and that was something that I would expect from Benmage. On the other hand, his later posts backing this up suggest that his opinion is an honest one.

Encountered this while I was going back to address Benmage's post, so I thought I'd throw it up there. I'd be very interested in seeing what happened to this opinion now that Zdenek has flip-flopped and started voting me.

[Zdenek]

11) Mastermind of Sin (Jaime Lannister)

I think that his attack on Benmage was pretty bad, just because it only took into account one of Benmage's actions and that was something that I would expect from Benmage. On the other hand, his later posts backing this up suggest that his opinion is an honest one.

Encountered this while I was going back to address Benmage's post, so I thought I'd throw it up there. I'd be very interested in seeing what happened to this opinion now that Zdenek has flip-flopped and started voting me.

Your vote was bad, and, as Benmage pointed out, the opinion that you presented was a very easy one to defend.

[Benmage]

So you're proposing a no lynch?

Of course not. But I'm not going to randomly choose to lynch someone who I don't have a decent reason to believe is scum. That would be retarded.

You're bitching at me about deadline. But the clock keeps clicking. You came back wednesday and havent done much since. The reason I waited so long was to let all those v/la people/little contributors get back into the game(and a little bit a RL for myself). I also didn't want all the votes to simply be: Good case/SheepBenmage. Oversoul and Empking are the only sheepers. Everyone else was independent. And Zed is the newest, because of the case. It was also.. what... 6 days, in a 14 day thats nearly 50%. Not exactly waiting to the end as you worded. The deadline is getting closer and closer. You've voiced against lynching Oversoul, and only mocked my points against you.

I don't see any worthy candidates on the Horizon, but am curious about what you may try and enlighten for us.

**Also still lingering as to why you ever unvoted me... but I doubt I ever get a straight answer there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

tl;dr - I could not have been expecting to "sneak" into the game while voting one of the most active and prominent players who has a track record of attacking people who go after him. There is also very little correlation between my play in this game and UPick mafia, where I was scum. In fact, the strongest game my play here compares to is Prozacs Basic Theme 3, where I was town and singlehandedly won the game. Benmage talks a lot about how I have been trying to "undermine" or "discredit" him, when the entirety of his actions leading up to this case were perfect examples of that kind of behavior. He's being hypocritical in many cases, and quite often simply failed in his basic dissemination of my posts, not even getting the facts straight *before* interpreting them for his read.

MoS:

V/La here:

See my siggy for V/LA.

300 something posts into the game. MoS’s 3rd post. (Although is V/LA)

What exactly is your point in stating this?

post 330
Easy vote. Easy stance to get behind. (Benmagetell to come)This is a super easy post for scum MoS to make. He posts, so he appears quasi –active. He’s against lynching town (going to be hard to find people to disagree with his main premise). This allows MoS to sneak in a post. Sneak in a vote, and be able to arbitrarily defended it; effectively disassociating him from the rest of the game and allowing him a side tangent (false post inflation setup. Good to go.)

In what way does choosing to vote one of the most prominent players in the game who has no one else actively suspecting them constitute "sneaking in a vote"?

Someone else already made this point, but there's too many pages for me to wade through and find it. It makes absolutely no sense to claim that I was trying to keep a low profile by throwing myself into the limelight with that vote and going against the grain.

Also, you're admitting that my case against you is an easy stance to get behind? There are several problems with this:

1) You've spent much of your time trying to argue how horrible my argument is, but now you're saying it's easy for people to agree with?
2) If it's an easy stance to get behind, then why was I the only person to back it?

Are you really trying to argue that I was attempting to inflate my post count by making one post 330 posts into the game?

Wow MoS back to back Faraday scum games. Lucky you....well not this time, ur bleeding scum.

Tunnelvision tactic..again?

You wish. I just look like I'm evil but in the end when you get to know me you can really empathize with my situation.

I'll look to embellish on this at the end.

You actually never went back and addressed this, so I'm not sure why you even bothered quoting it. Nor am I sure why you're so interested in my occasional Jaime Lannister roleplaying schtick.

Note that in post 335 he fails to answer:

Oh lets keep rolling.

MoS your view on Oversoul

But does in:
post 337
After I reasked it in:
post 336

Yes, I had just made a long post responding to a bunch of stuff and I forgot to address one thing. You reminded me and I gave you my answer. OH GOD THAT MUST MEAN I AM SCUM!

Seriously?

I illustrate this because my point is that MoS’s attack on me was him wanting to interject himself into the game on a nonconsequential tangent. He didn’t want it known that he didn’t have a true grasp on the game. He just wanted to be able to slink in, post, and talk about nothing.

So wait, if I didn't want it known that I hadn't fully read the game in its entirety, why did I explicitly admit to that fact on several occasions? How exactly is telling EVERYONE that I don't have a full grasp on the game equate to wanting to hide that very fact?

Holy discrepancies,

Batman

Balon!

In this post MoS attempts to discredit my work with linear false logic and buzzwording like the ending here^.

The obvious reason I didn't list MoS as someone to kill, but have him as the #1 scum suspect...

is you dont Cop, or Vig people you can lynch.

MoS is not a newb. He knows this.

I very much disagree with this. I do NOT hold to the common practice of not investigating or killing people you believe to be scum. I think that is a terrible ego-driven way of playing mafia. I am not arrogant enough to believe that there is anyone I can ever *definitely* get lynched, so I don't take any chances. This is especially true as a cop, because I am not infallible. Just because I am convinced someone is scum does not mean I am correct. Investigating them is the only way to confirm my suspicions.

Of course, I would be very interested in seeing your research where you found evidence that I do agree with that practice, however.

Unvote, FoS: Benmage

since I'm on V/LA.

Out of the blue unvote?

This makes no sense... He was on V/LA when he voted me. Nothings change?

Lets take a sneak preview of what the scumdaytalk must look like:

scum: MoS you need to up your post count
MoS: I'll artificially insert myself, don't worry I'm good at this
scum: No MoS Benmage is wayyyy to obvious town, this will make you look bad
MoS: I'll slide off him with my V/LA excuse, then lurk till the smoke blows over and when I return I'll hold true to my stance that you dont lynch town ever.

That was fun. But anways. There’s zero logical reasoning for him to unvote me other than realizing the futility in his efforts and to hope the mounting pressure his way would blow over.

1) For the 18 billionth time, I unvoted you because I felt your intentions in questioning DoF showed pro-town tendencies. It's very misleading that you only quoted half of that post so that people reading your case don't realize the context of my unvote, however.
2) Are you really both claiming to be protown and claiming that there is no logical reason for someone to unvote you? That's just fucking hilarious.

He lurks and posts nothing of consequence. Here he (inside info on Oversoul) goes against the mainstream attacks on Oversoul. post 682

Reasserts his lack of belief in the Oversoul attacks: post 747

Skilled scum these days like to have differing views. So if some scum attack Oversoul, other scum will side with him. Pretty Standard.

So wait. You trying to stop the Oversoul lynch is a protown thing, but me saying the case against him seems dumb is scummy?

...just...wow.

Classic there's no case on me: post 768

There is a huge difference between saying "there's no case on me" to mean the case on me is bad and saying it to mean that no one has actually presented a case yet. The first one can be a scum tactic (although it gets used by both alignments fairly frequently), the second one is just stating simple fact.

Let's take a look at the wagon on me as of the point where I stated there was no case on me:

Mastermind of Sin (4) Plum, greenknight, Oversoul, Empking

In 768 I stated that Plum and MoI had put some detail behind their suspicion of me. So it's not like I was straight up saying that no one in the game had put forth a case. My point was that the majority of the people voting/attacking me had no case whatsoever.

MoS - I don't like his claim to have not read any of Oversoul's posts in #337 considering how much Oversoul posted up to that point. Suggests that he might have ignored the posts because he knows Oversoul's alignment already. I'll look at his accusation of Benmage, and Plum's subsequent accusation of him based on that, later.

[edited]

for now,

Vote MoS

Here we have greenknight voting me for not having read the first 14 pages of the game. That's hardly a case, that we can agree on I'm sure.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mos

As you wish, my lord.

Here we have Oversoul voting me because Benmage told him to. I just did a quick search through his ISO for my username, and this is the only time Oversoul has mentioned me in this entire game.

Unvote, Vote: MOS

This was also the only time Empking had mentioned me in this game. Once again voting specifically because Benmage told him to, no other reason.

So let's look at Benmage. In Post 467, Post 518, Post 545, Post 640, and Post 641, he promised a case on me. He finally made his case in post 809, which I am currently responding to. However, my post demanding that the people going after me actually post a case came in post 768, as Benmage very clearly outlined for us above. So there literally was very little attempt to build a case against me at the point I made that post. That is not at all a "classic" scumtell, that is me simply stating the facts.

I might also note that Benmage promised to post his case on Monday, but delayed posting it until Friday of that same week, despite finding the time to make several lengthy responses to other players. Benmage went from promising a case the same day in ISO #59 to actually making that case in ISO #102. He found time to make 43 posts but did not make the promised case against me. In the time Benmage waited to make his case, my wagon grew from 1 player (Plum) to 4 players (greenknight, Oversoul, and Empking joined up after Benmage started telling people to sheep him onto me while he wasn't even voting me).

Noncommittal post 781

Because every protown person is confident in their reads and every antitown person can't make up their mind? That's really what you're going with here? The last time I became fanatically attached to a scumread as town, I ended up losing the entire game for the town (Hydra Mafia). I don't make that mistake anymore. I frequently step back to reevaluate my reads and if I don't have a good reason to suspect anyone, I don't vote. I never vote just to make sure a lynch occurs. You can look up any game I've played in to confirm that.

Tunnel Vision tactic:

This point came from Upick Mafia Fantasy Camp. Wherein MoS went out of his way to paint me poorly and to attack me for my predecessors digressions. I was town. He was scum. My point here, is that MoS simply went on and on and on over weak attacks but was relentless in his tunneling.

Scum MoS likes to get fully embraced in easy attacking tangents. He attacked me here on another easy issue for him to latch onto.

Spoiler: The "Benmagetell"

-The premise of this tell is that scum must create false attacks/cases in order to push mislynches. They must purposely paint people (who are town) as scummy. They must fabricate the towns persons actions or paint the actions only in a negative light.
-This tell is essentially the recognition of someone finding only the scummy points or flaws in ones points or arguments. It’s used to purposely undermine, or paint someone in a negative light. Many times actions can be viewed from either perspective. This person will state them only from the negative.
-This is a tell that is most easily recognized by the person who is being attacked. When your town, you know the full motives of your posts and where you are trying to go with them, or what information you are trying to attain. When someone spins your posts into only negative view you can most effectively recognize false cases, or purposeful attempts to discredit/undermine.

Magister Ludi would recognize the “Benmagetell” quite well.
He uses it against me in Patricks Speed Mafia here.
Ludi purposely misrepresents my actions, painting them as incoherent, illogical… flipping them only into the negative light. He doesn’t entertain the idea of any town motivation. Why? Because scum need to fabricate false attacks on townies!! Ding ding ding.

The Benmagetell

.

This leads me into tracking Ludi to the nightkill, surprising many people, including the scumteam who believed Ludi visibly town. But I was able to recognize the falsehoods in his attack as they were linked to me.

To put us back on track. MoS needing to enter into the game in some aspect. Sought an easy irrefutable point to attack. Sought to engage or tunnel himself in an issue of relative nonconsequence. And committed the

“Benmagetell”

seeing only the negative aspects of my views, and attempting to undermine my position.

This one is my favorite. I'm going to premise this once again by going WTF at the first point below:

1) This is the second time in your case against me that you have stated my attack on you was valid in some manner. First you stated it was an easy stance to get behind (as addressed earlier), now you state that my case was irrefutable? After spending so much time trying to discredit me, why are you directly giving weight to my arguments now?

2) Actually, the only parallel that can be drawn between this game and UPick mafia is that we were both in it. In UPick mafia my behavior was completely different. I did not solely tunnel you, you only believe that because you are a very self-centered player. In UPick mafia I also went hard after GreyICE's third-party claim, I aggressively bussed my scumbuddy DemonHybrid, and I actually tunneled Screaming Death Clan harder and longer than I ever tunneled you. In UPick mafia I was very opinionated and gave reads on most of the players in the game. That is not at all how I have been playing this game, so you really can't draw any connections between them. Of course, I could also tell you to look at Mafia Dating Game Show 2, where I bussed my scumbuddy Day 1 and then aggressively led lynches on town and scum alike and always had several suspects that I was pushing. Or how about Chuck Season 1 mafia, where I did pretty much the same thing? In fact, Empking was scum with me in that game, so he should know better. You know what, though, let's take this one step further. How about Prozacs Basic Theme 3,

where I came into the game late as a replacement, did not bother rereading the parts of the game that occurred before my first post, and proceeded to say that I was no interested in lynching the person being wagoned at the time (having not read their posts in entirety)

. It's also worth noting that I went on to have a perfect record opposing both town mislynches that occurred after I replaced and calling out 4 remaining scum on my way to a Scummy Nomination. Just in case there was any question about the effectiveness of my methods.

(As a reference, here's a link to Empking's scum ISO from Chuck mafia, in case anyone is interested in comparing it to his play in this game. I haven't had time to look fully and see if there is any correlation or not, but I figured while I was looking at that game, why not.)

I’m waiting now for his clarification on why he ever unvoted me.

But alas the time is now to give direction to this day. It’s nearing that period where the day actually gets too long. He is the clear unequivocal scummiest person whose lynch is best. I had wanted to give more time for those who have suffered from being v/la to get caughtup with the game. Unfortunately with a spammer role, this game will already be over 40 pages by the time the lynch goes through.

Lets DO THIS

Unvote Vote MoS

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that I've already explained why I unvoted you on several occasions. Like, ya know, WHEN I UNVOTED YOU. Funny how that works.

[Deity of Flame]

*hands note to all*


"Sorry i haven't been around been incredibly busy and my hydramate seems a bit "absent". Catching up now."

[Deity of Flame]

And MoS

, any reason you aren't voting anyone?

I haven't decided who is scum yet.

*hands note*
"UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

I was wrong, die."

[Magister Ludi]

Mastermind is town

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mastermind is town

Regardless of whether this is true MagisterLudi is completely useless ...

[Magister Ludi]

You think it is possible he is town and you are voting him?

And what, pray tell, would being 'useful' look like? You?

[Deity of Flame]

Mastermind is town

Explain, now.

[Magister Ludi]

One easy reason. 863 comes from town. That is town effort, plus the ideas he presents in it make a lot of sense.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to try something a little different now. Laws of probability say that there is probably

at least

1 scum attacking me and 1 scum voting me, but I'm actually more interested right now in the group of people that are ignoring this situation.

Players who have not commented at all about the Benmage/MoS conflict (just did a quick search for keywords "MoS" and "Mastermind" on their ISOs):

Mina
ooba
hasdgfas - Just recently said he needed to look at it "again", despite not having ever said anything about it previously.
ABR
Magua
Shadow1psc
mockingjaye
Oversoul - Is currently voting me xD
Magister Ludi
Empking - Is currently voting me
Cogito Ergo Sum - Did say that I was a good vote in Post 751, but did not explain or mention Benmage vs MoS at any other point.
DTMaster/FourseenCircumstance

Let's see if any of them have made a habit out of avoiding major topics altogether.

Players who have not commented at all about the Oversoul wagon (searched for keyword "Oversoul"):

ooba - Called Oversoul town in his second post but did not elaborate or mention him again.
ABR
Magister Ludi - Voted Oversoul, never explained his vote.
Empking - Has interacted with Oversoul a lot, and called him town, but has strangely never really given his opinion on the wagon's case. Only reason he's on this list.
Cogito Ergo Sum - Actually admits straight up that he's been ignoring the Oversoul wagon all game.

Of those 5, only Magister Ludi, Empking, and Cogito Ergo Sum have been active. CES' actions actually read somewhat town right now, so that leaves Ludi and Empking. One of them is a decent bet for scum, having completely avoided being involved in both of the major events of this game.

On the remaining list, we have:

Mina - reads town to me
hasdgfas - actually somewhat concerned about the comment I made on him above, but it's been a while since I've played with him so I need to reread.
Magua - I don't like that he's been 100% tunneled on Oversoul to the point of being convinced he's scum without any possibility of being wrong. Anyone who has played with him before, can you confirm if this is something he does as town?
Shadow1psc - Reads genuine to me
mockingjaye - Lurky, promised a follow-up post on Tuesday which never came
Oversoul - I can understand getting so sucked into his own issues that he hasn't had time to comment on the other big conflict, but at the same time it's incredibly concerning that he was willing to place a vote on it without having given his own opinion.
DTMaster - Needs to get past Page 6 in his read-through so we can get more opinions from him.

hasdgfas, Magua, and Oversoul are the ones I dislike the most off this list.

As our lurky people, we have ooba, ABR, and mockingjaye.

Process of elimination makes me believe we have a good chance of finding scum by focusing on these three groups:

1) Magister Ludi, Empking, Cogito Ergo Sum
2) hasdgfas, Magua, Oversoul
3) ooba, ABR, mockingjaye

I don't necessarily think there is a scum in all 3 groups, but I think appropriate focus on these players will help us narrow things down. That's going to be a little easier than trying to pick scum out of the entire playerlist as a whole, so I think this analysis is going to be useful for me. Divide and conquer can be very effective.

I'll go more in-depth on them later, I need a break for a bit. Perhaps someone else will pick up the mantle and contribute. I'd be interested in seeing a different perspective on my conclusions.

[Magister Ludi]

Where's diddin in all that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

And MoS

, any reason you aren't voting anyone?

I haven't decided who is scum yet.

*hands note*
"UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

I was wrong, die."

Explain, now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where's diddin in all that?

I remembered that diddin commented on Benmage vs MoS in #334 and #845 so I didn't actually look at his ISO, but going back now I see that he actually hasn't really said much in general. He's posted 11 times but about half of them were proddodges, so he doesn't have a lot of content. I'd probably add him to group 3, in retrospect.