A Feast for Crows Mafia - Valar Morghulis.

[greenknight]

MoS, are you really claiming that using the excuse "I didn't read the first 14 pages" to avoid commenting on anything is valid town play? If so, I couldn't possibly agree less.

Also, I read you as scummy for ignoring the Oversoul issue, and now you are saying that scum would be ignoring the issue of Benmage vs yourself and "avoiding major topics"? Really?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@greenknight: It's not the first time I've done it. See this post, from a recently completed game where I was town (in fact, that is the only completed game from all of 2011 where I was town).

As for Oversoul, I'm not sure how you can equate those two things. My analysis is based on people not saying anything AT ALL about Benmage/MoS or Oversoul, as in often not even acknowledging that those events are going on. I have very clearly responded to people asking me about my Oversoul views, and I have also commented several times on the case against him when it was explained to me. In fact, how can you POSSIBLY say I have ignored the Oversoul issue, when my FIRST POST in this entire game was voting Benmage for his actions regarding Oversoul and his wagon?

Oh, and for the record, I'm just going to head this off in advance. In the off-chance that I am lynched, be VERY suspicious of anyone who uses my alignment to try and build a wagon on Benmage. I may have made several points against him so far in this game, but I'm not convinced that Benmage is scum right now, and it'd be a fallacy to use my argument with him to get both of us lynched. I'm not saying that Benmage shouldn't be lynched in the event that I am dead, but do your own damn legwork instead of just riding my alignment to get it done.

[Benmage]

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that I've already explained why I unvoted you on several occasions. Like, ya know, WHEN I UNVOTED YOU. Funny how that works.

Then explain it. Once more from the top. As if we were all 5 year olds. Be as slow and detailed as possible, because I am not the only one doesn't believe you properly clearly answered it.

[Benmage]

^NVM that

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol.

[Benmage]

tl;dr - I could not have been expecting to "sneak" into the game while voting one of the most active and prominent players who has a track record of attacking people who go after him.

You did it in Upick.. you could feel comfortable in combating me.

Benmage talks a lot about how I have been trying to "undermine" or "discredit" him, w

hen the entirety of his actions leading up to this case were perfect examples of that kind of behavior.

LINK

Also, you're admitting that my case against you is an easy stance to get behind? There are several problems with this:

1) You've spent much of your time trying to argue how horrible my argument is, but now you're saying it's easy for people to agree with?
2) If it's an easy stance to get behind, then why was I the only person to back it?

1. Link me arguing how horrible your argument is please. And you dont think the premise of not lynching town reads is an easy one?
2. Because you didn't read the rest of the game. And 1 point is nothing when I was bleeeeeeding town. People can easily agree with your position in not lynching town without finding me scummy whatsoever.

You actually never went back and addressed this, so I'm not sure why you even bothered quoting it. Nor am I sure why you're so interested in my occasional Jaime Lannister roleplaying schtick.

I bolded tunnelvision tactic in the quote... thats what I went back to.

Of course, I would be very interested in seeing your research where you found evidence that I do agree with that practice, however.

You know that it is an acceptable practice that many don't choose their #1 scum suspects to cop or vig. Yet you mocked me leaving you out in those brackets as absurdly illogical.

I.E. Purposeful undermining.

I might also note that Benmage promised to post his case on Monday, but delayed posting it until Friday of that same week, despite finding the time to make several lengthy responses to other players. Benmage went from promising a case the same day in ISO #59 to actually making that case in ISO #102. He found time to make 43 posts but did not make the promised case against me. In the time Benmage waited to make his case, my wagon grew from 1 player (Plum) to 4 players (greenknight, Oversoul, and Empking joined up after Benmage started telling people to sheep him onto me while he wasn't even voting me).

Yes I wanted people who were v/la to be caught up. You including. I told MoI there was strategic reasoning for my further delay. And RL Also set me back, as your case/post was by far the most involved one. And I have also further stated that I didn't want your wagon to be solely: Good case/SheepBenmage.

Again. There was nearly half the day left when I made the case. Whats the issue?

I'll read more later.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 1, Votecount 29

Oversoul (6) - Magua, diddin, Hasdgfas, Monday, Cogito Ergo Sum, Wraith
Greenknight (1) - ooba

Mastermind of Sin (8) Plum, greenknight, Oversoul, Empking, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Zdenek, Deity of Flame

diddin (2) - Magister Ludi, Albert B. Rampage
DTMaster (1) - Mina
Empking (1) - Shadow1psc
Magister Ludi (1) - Feysal

Not voting

(3) Mockingjaye, Mastermind of Sin, DTMaster

With 23 votes in play it takes 12 to lynch.

• Deadline for Day 1
  : 15:29 GMT on the 17th of November.
  
• Countdown
  : (expired on 2011-11-17 11:29:00)
  
• Please point out any mistakes in the votecount.
  
• Mockingjaye has 12 hours before I replace her.
  
• Oversoul is being prodded.

[mockingjaye]

Sorry, all, I had a computer malfunction earlier this week and got it back yesterday afternoon. Shouldn't happen again.

ANything come from this?

Aside from being wary of both Shadow's and Oversoul's defensiveness, at best I have a null read on both. For the record, I'm not sure if Oversoul didn't slip and base his claim on the sample pm, which he wouldn't have read closely if he were scum, but due to the presence of that sample pm, there's no way to really base a solid read on that one thing. At this point, it's a null tell for me and I need to see more from Oversoul overall to judge him either way. Shadow's hyper-defensiveness and his seething anger for anyone who questions or attacks him is more of a problem for me than Oversoul flubbing his colors. I also think I have my feelings about you and MoI sorted at the moment, as well.

Right now I've been solely focused on catching up in this game and want to address some of the things that jumped out at me.

1. Greenknight:

Just noting this for now. In the dialogue with Oversoul, you come into the argument rather late (post 290), and say that you thought he was the Blue Bard at first. Considering there is a handy list of players and their corresponding characters in the beginning of the game, why would you think that? To me this looks like a weak attempt to justify suspicion/voting of Oversoul based on "Bluegate." Asking if he is associated with the Blue Bard also seems to be a bit of blatant fishing. Also, focusing on Oversoul while keeping a vote on Fourseen, ostensibly because of his random one-liners, is curious, given the amount of people who have not been very present in the game today (myself included). I'm wondering why you didn't have it the other way around given that Oversoul was a leading wagon and Fourseen a virtual non-entity? Also, what do you think about Shadow? He's apparently on your town list for picking a fight on page two and because he's "too active" to lynch today? Can you offer any other reason that he is townish to you?

2.

DTM:

I have checked and Mace Tyrell (Magister Ludi) has done nothing but post his arrival, and point fingers at random. Nor has he granted us his wisdom to the traitors of the crown. I had to reread the transcripts, and he has only posted fluff to this point. This man should be questioned immediately.

So, question him? You brought this up and dropped it and haven't returned to it since. If you perceive him as a threat, why are you calling for others to question him rather than doing it yourself? Also, your post 787 is a lot of work to prove that Oversoul slipped somehow, but doesn't take into consideration the fact that both colors are indeed present in town pms, so it feels very much like you are trying to stretch out the slip even though it's been milked for all it's worth at this point. (And as Magua asked--where exactly are you going with this?)

3.

Wraith:

I asked before, and I am asking again. You seemed to be interested in lynching Fourseen as a policy lynch, hinting that he was a negative force no matter his alignment. Once DTM replaced him, you haven't commented on anything DTM has done or said, but still maintain he is on your list. Why, exactly? Because right now I'm reading this as you either a) began a bus on the slot, and don't want to back off in case he flips scum soon; or b) are aiming for a mislynch but don't want to push too hard to keep your hands cleaner--either way, I see it as being scum-motivated. Also, I am once again going to refer to the post 568 in which it looks like you're trying to find a way to switch wagons without looking bad for doing so, given your adamant comments about Oversoul-scum in your earlier post. What I mean by this is you have Oversoul bolded at the top of your current suspects list, and then you say this:

While I still disagree that Oversoul is town, I am more and pulled to a Fourseen lynch for today. It's just...Fourseen is bad, and I don't think Oversoul is.

In summary: CES and Fourseen have jumped up on my scumlist, with the latter just about surpassing Oversoul. HOWEVER, Oversoul seems to have disappeared for the last couple-three or so pages, and it seems to coincide with heat disappating off him. At this point in the day I can easily go with either an Oversoul or Fourseen lynch, but for now I'm staying on the Oversoul wagon.

Then, you don't move your vote until the next day, after another of Fourseen's comments. I ask you this: if you think they're both scum and Fourseen is also "bad," then why eliminate the bad player instead of the good one? Which one is a bigger threat to the town? Also, why not put him on a vig list, especially if you still think Oversoul is scum? I think you saw strong town support for Oversoul developing and backed off. Overall, I see your actions as being overly cautious and reactionary and definitely not town.

Finally, Wraith has mentioned MoS exactly once, in which he disagrees with Diddin about MoS's post. MoS's analysis of the game also makes no mention of Wraith.

I have a lot more to say about MoS, but this post is getting long, so I'm posting what I have and will finish up in my next.

[greenknight]

@greenknight: It's not the first time I've done it. See this post, from a recently completed game where I was town (in fact, that is the only completed game from all of 2011 where I was town).

You were a replacement player in that game though. Which is a different situation really.

As for Oversoul, I'm not sure how you can equate those two things. My analysis is based on people not saying anything AT ALL about Benmage/MoS or Oversoul, as in often not even acknowledging that those events are going on. I have very clearly responded to people asking me about my Oversoul views, and I have also commented several times on the case against him when it was explained to me. In fact, how can you POSSIBLY say I have ignored the Oversoul issue, when my FIRST POST in this entire game was voting Benmage for his actions regarding Oversoul and his wagon?

What you did ignore was the issue of Oversoul's ALIGNMENT which had been the largest polarizing topic in the game up to that point. You did respond to people asking you about your Oversoul views, it's true, but it was always "I have no opinion on Oversoul because I haven't read his posts."

Oh, and for the record, I'm just going to head this off in advance. In the off-chance that I am lynched, be VERY suspicious of anyone who uses my alignment to try and build a wagon on Benmage. I may have made several points against him so far in this game, but I'm not convinced that Benmage is scum right now, and it'd be a fallacy to use my argument with him to get both of us lynched. I'm not saying that Benmage shouldn't be lynched in the event that I am dead, but do your own damn legwork instead of just riding my alignment to get it done.

If you are town, I wish you'd started posting opinions earlier instead of leaving it until so late in the day. Well, who would you lynch out of these players from your list if then? (The extreme lurkers are pretty indistinguishable imo, so let's take them out for now)

1) Magister Ludi, Empking, Cogito Ergo Sum
2) hasdgfas, Magua, Oversoul

[Mastermind of Sin]

tl;dr - I could not have been expecting to "sneak" into the game while voting one of the most active and prominent players who has a track record of attacking people who go after him.

You did it in Upick.. you could feel comfortable in combating me.

In UPick my attacks on you were fairly high profile. It got me a lot of attention from other players. If anything, UPick serves as evidence that I could not have possibly been expecting to be low profile by attacking you.

Benmage talks a lot about how I have been trying to "undermine" or "discredit" him, w

hen the entirety of his actions leading up to this case were perfect examples of that kind of behavior.

LINK

All of the following are examples of you being dismissive towards me or attempting to undermine/discredit me without actually putting forth logical casework.

Wow MoS back to back Faraday scum games. Lucky you....well not this time, ur bleeding scum. Tunnelvision tactic..again?

MoS –SCUM SCUM SCUM… A-Lurking. Benmagetell.

MoS....popping up to jab at my commentary when the answers are so obvious. When my alignment is so obvious. Undermine -tactic.

Is it ironic that MoS pops in when his name is mentioned .... like he's reading along.... but still has almost zero game input.

QFT

So he's answered it. But you failed to read it. And you failed to continue to prod him in your belief that he hadn't answered it. Ccccccccoasters are needed only on shit thats too fancy anyways.

I'm not even bothering to include all of the times that you questioned people for their views on me or insisted that they sheep you and vote me. Add in those post as well, and nearly all of your attacks on me prior to the posting of your main case were derisive, unhelpful, and generally indicative of the kind of behavior you were accusing me of.

The key takeaway here is that you don't seem to realize that town who get overcommitted to a case tend to exhibit that exact behavior, sometimes without even knowing it. It's not something that can be used as a reliable tell with players who tend to be stubborn regardless of alignment. Unfortunately, we both fall under that category, which is why I'm not calling you scum for the same reason you're calling me scum.

Also, you're admitting that my case against you is an easy stance to get behind? There are several problems with this:

1) You've spent much of your time trying to argue how horrible my argument is, but now you're saying it's easy for people to agree with?
2) If it's an easy stance to get behind, then why was I the only person to back it?

1. Link me arguing how horrible your argument is please. And you dont think the premise of not lynching town reads is an easy one?
2. Because you didn't read the rest of the game. And 1 point is nothing when I was bleeeeeeding town. People can easily agree with your position in not lynching town without finding me scummy whatsoever.

My premise was not at all based on "not lynching town". I've already gone over with Plum that Oversoul's alignment was not an assumption I made when I first attacked you. My premise was that you and Oversoul are not scum together and that your actions indicated insincerity in trying to stop the Oversoul wagon.

You actually never went back and addressed this, so I'm not sure why you even bothered quoting it. Nor am I sure why you're so interested in my occasional Jaime Lannister roleplaying schtick.

I bolded tunnelvision tactic in the quote... thats what I went back to.

That quote was 90% roleplay and didn't have anything to do with me tunneling on you, so I'm not sure what I was relevant, but whatever.

Of course, I would be very interested in seeing your research where you found evidence that I do agree with that practice, however.

You know that it is an acceptable practice that many don't choose their #1 scum suspects to cop or vig. Yet you mocked me leaving you out in those brackets as absurdly illogical.

I.E. Purposeful undermining.

No, I believe that this practice is easily used as an excuse for scum to avoid claiming night choices that make sense based on their suspicions in thread. That is why I was worried about the discrepancy. However, I will concede that it is possible we simply disagree on the proper way to utilize power roles.

I might also note that Benmage promised to post his case on Monday, but delayed posting it until Friday of that same week, despite finding the time to make several lengthy responses to other players. Benmage went from promising a case the same day in ISO #59 to actually making that case in ISO #102. He found time to make 43 posts but did not make the promised case against me. In the time Benmage waited to make his case, my wagon grew from 1 player (Plum) to 4 players (greenknight, Oversoul, and Empking joined up after Benmage started telling people to sheep him onto me while he wasn't even voting me).

Yes I wanted people who were v/la to be caught up. You including. I told MoI there was strategic reasoning for my further delay. And RL Also set me back, as your case/post was by far the most involved one. And I have also further stated that I didn't want your wagon to be solely: Good case/SheepBenmage.

Again. There was nearly half the day left when I made the case. Whats the issue?

I'll read more later.

You could just as easily have presented the case much earlier and stated specifically that people were not to simply sheep you based on the case you posted. That would have been hell of a lot more effective than convincing people to sheep you without a case. Did you honestly think that players like Oversoul and Empking were going to vote me for no reason and then not just agree with your case once you eventually posted it? The resulting effect is exactly the same, except for the fact that you've limited the amount of time we have to discuss it. Your assumption that I would have time to reply to you immediately was not a good one, either. Had you posted your case on Monday, like you promised, I might actually have had time to respond to it in pieces while I was on V/LA, as well as more fully on Thursday. Your delay cost us 4+ days of discussion. My delay cost us 1. I think it's pretty obvious which one hurt the town more. You need to own up to your actions, Benmage.

Also, Benmage, you have asked all of the following players for their opinion/to elaborate on me:

DoF
MoI
Magua
diddin
DTM/FC
Wraith
Monday

Why have you not asked the same of Mina, ooba, hasdgfas, ABR, Shadow1psc, mockingjaye, Oversoul, Magister Ludi, Empking, or Cogito Ergo Sum? Why do you feel that I am scummy for simply forgetting to respond to you prodding me about Oversoul the first time, but you don't have any qualms with the fact that you had to ask DoF about me and others at least

3 times

?

@mockingjaye:

You make generally good points all around, and I'm interested in hearing their responses. As for Wraith in my analysis, you'll note he mentioned me both in Post 565 and Post 858. I'm not saying that he has put out a lot of content on me, but to simplify my analysis (since it took me several hours to respond to Benmage's case *and* build that analysis already), I counted that as enough content to narrow down the list. The parameters of that analysis were not intended to find all the scum, as I prefaced it by clearly stating there are likely scum both attacking me and supporting me, but it was an exercise to try and find that third group of scum who avoided it altogether.

@greenknight:

It's not really a different situation at all. By the time I saw the game thread for the first time, there were already 14 or so pages. That's already practically replacement realm. Why would I have any more incentive to read through all of those pages than I would as a replacement? And yes, I did not give an opinion on Oversoul's alignment early. I was not interested in him at the time that I came into the game, because Benmage caught my attention far more. I did not give an Oversoul view because I did not have one. People asked me why I did not have one, so I told them the truth, that I had not read his posts. What would you rather have had me say?

Given that much of my analysis is based off the culmination of the Benmage vs MoS conflict, I could not have voiced these opinions any earlier, greenknight. As far as that list of 6 players go, I'm still working to narrow it down. CES is probably the one on that least I'm least willing to lynch, however, as I've already stated. I have to go back and compare Ludi's play in this game to [REDACTED], where he is dead mafia. Empking and Oversoul I don't feel great about because they basically did exactly what Benmage claimed he was trying to prevent, and they've not gotten a ton of heat for it, which is concerning. That sort of mindless voting action would be the perfect thing for scum to jump on and attack if they were town. As for hasdfas and Magua, I don't have a good frame of reference to judge their play, as I can't remember the last time I've played with either. So it's going to take more rereading to firm up an opinion on them. However, because all of this is going to take much more time, that's why I wanted to get the initial parts of my analysis posted as soon as possible.

[greenknight]

1. Greenknight:

Just noting this for now. In the dialogue with Oversoul, you come into the argument rather late (post 290), and say that you thought he was the Blue Bard at first. Considering there is a handy list of players and their corresponding characters in the beginning of the game, why would you think that?

I just remembered the Blue Bard was one of the characters in the game and the only one with an obvious association with the colour blue. Didn't check the list until later on.

Also, focusing on Oversoul while keeping a vote on Fourseen, ostensibly because of his random one-liners, is curious, given the amount of people who have not been very present in the game today (myself included). I'm wondering why you didn't have it the other way around given that Oversoul was a leading wagon and Fourseen a virtual non-entity?

I was undecided on Oversoul at the time, didn't have much of a read on anyone yet and Fourseen's one liners just stood out to me as particularly bad. Was hoping a vote might push him into commenting on something.

Also, what do you think about Shadow? He's apparently on your town list for picking a fight on page two and because he's "too active" to lynch today? Can you offer any other reason that he is townish to you?

He's currently on my overall neutral list (you probably missed the updated list) due to conflicting tells. Other town tell is that the way in which he trolled Benmage seemed an excessively risky move for scum. On the other hand - scum tells are early defensiveness and the fact that some of his later posts are bad (such as the attack on Plum, and low postcount = scum argument)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, so you think shadow getting mixed up with Benmage was a town tell, but you think I'm scum? LoL...

[zoraster]

Percent of people actively contributing has gone way down since MoS started his wall post act.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think we should lynch conveniently lurking Oversoulscum.

[zoraster]

I think we should lynch conveniently lurking Oversoulscum.

Hallelujah! Lancel gets it.

[diddin]

I think we should lynch conveniently lurking Oversoulscum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not sure how I feel about greenknight's suggestion that we pull out the lurkers for consideration right now, but I only have so much time so I'm going to roll with it right now. Let's definitely not forget about them, though.

Magister Ludi -

- Votes DoF (RVS)
- Votes Balon Swann (dunno which player that is)
- Votes Oversoul
- Lists games played with Oversoul without explaining why that experience gives him a scum read.
- Unvotes without reasoning, Votes diddin without reasoning
- Spends a bunch of posts telling people to lynch diddin
- Calls me town, when pressed for reasoning refers to my post #863

Conclusion:

I'm not sold on Ludi fully. His play resembles a lot of when he was scum in [REDACTED], but the major difference is that he did a lot of yelling at people in CAPS LOCK in that game. I'm not seeing that in this game, which gives me pause. Can someone point me to a town-Ludi game for comparison? For now, he comes in at neutral, slightly-scummy.

Empking -

- Votes Magua (RVS)
- Votes Shadow, no reasoning
- Spends his next several posts attacking Shadow
- Claims he'd play differently if CES was sheeping him consistently. I agree with MoI that it doesn't make sense.
- Calls Wraith out for not scumhunting
- Starts arguing with Oversoul, eventually calls him town
- Agrees with Benmage that shadow is a noob rather than scum, but still keeps his vote on him.
- Votes greenknight for no reason
- When questioned, says his vote is because he's sheeping Benmage
- Switches vote to me for no reason, sheeping Benmage again.
- Seems to have missed that the mod said all alignments were randomized (null tell at best, town miss details all the time)
- Calls my initial response to Benmage's case "forced"

Conclusion:

Empking feels a lot like he did in Chuck Season 1 Mafia, when we were scumbuddies. He posts frequently and engages in discussions with a lot of players, but he doesn't actually do much with it. He's voted 4 people in this game so far without presenting reasons for ANY of them. Definitely scummy.

Cogito Ergo Sum -

(I'm going to do this ISO anyway, just in case my gut read is wrong.)

- Votes Magua
- Votes Shadow
- Votes hasdgfas
- Claims to be bloodthirsty
- Votes Shadow again
- Calls Plum scum, no vote
- Votes Mina
- Calls for Plum to be vigged, then votes Plum in the next post
- Calls for Oversoul to join the "Plumwagon"
- Changes vote to greenknight right after calling Plum scum #1
- Admits to bandwagoning
- Votes Oversoul
- Explains his strategy so far in the game
- Calls me and Oversoul good votes

Conclusion:

CES actually reads town to me, even if he's not being super helpful (it's par for the course). The way he explained himself to Mina shows that he put some thinking into what he was doing. I'd still like him to explain why he thinks I'm a good vote, though.

hasdgfas -

- Votes Taena (whoever that is) for distracting the town
- From further posts, I gather Taena is shadow, as cow keeps arguing with and attacking him.
- Joins the Oversoul wagon
- Says he needs a reread
- Posts reread of first 11 pages
- Posts reread of the next 7 pages
- Posts reread of the next 5 pages
- Finishes reread, but still has no thoughts on Benmage vs MoS
- Main suspects: Wraith, Oversoul, shadow

Conclusion:

Seems to be using a lot of scumhunting buzzwords, like "distract", "discredit", "appeal to emotion", "misrepresent", etc. Not sure what to make of it, but it could be a scum crutch as a substitue for solid reasoning. Most of the times when he used these terms, the argument he was using was not very strong or important. Other than that, a lot of his posts don't stand out to me much. A fair amount of content, but it just doesn't catch my eye as being important. Neutral read so far, need more from him.

Magua -

- Votes Oversoul over the color tell
- Lots more posts attacking Oversoul, and a couple posts talking to Zoraster for some reason
- Questions ABR's playstyle in this game
- Says he'll only lynch Oversoul today
- Asks ABR to replace out
- Questions shadow's questioning of Benmage leading the town
- Admits to tunneling on Oversoul, but doesn't do anything to fix that problem
- Calls Benmage's VCA "reaching" (I actually agree with this point)
- Calls Benmage town
- Goes back to rehashing his Oversoul attacks

Conclusion:

VEEEERY focused on Oversoul today, to the point that he ignores nearly everything else going on. If a person is cognizant that they are tunneling, you should see them start to make more of an effort to look at the rest of the game, even if they don't find much to comment on. I think he's going after the easy "slip" lynch. Also think the inteaction with confirmed scum Zoraster was pointless. Definite scummy vibes.

Oversoul -

- Starts his blue stuff
- Calls DTM/FC, Monday, and Empking not town, hasdgfas town
- Interacts with Zoraster
- I do want Oversoul to explain why he thinks there are two town factions with the same wincon
- Prods greenknight to stop lurking
- Oversoul, why do you think you should be responding to Zoraster as much as you respond to several other players in the game combined?
- Asks Ludi for actual content, defends himself some more
- Posts a suspicion list when he thinks he's been hammered (Scum - Ludi/Wraith/Diddin/Deity/FC/Plum, Town - Monday/Magua/Empking/MoI/Benmage/Shadow)
- Votes DTM/FC
- Votes Plum for jumping to conclusions and repeating content from earlier in the thread
- Votes greenknight for letting diddin and FC slide
- Calls Mina town
- Votes MoS at Benmage's request
- Says that scum would not call out the blue slip if it was an actual scum color (I actually disagree with this, I think scum are more likely to care about the blue slip and not think about how it's not confirmed to be the scum color already)

Conclusions:

Don't like the interaction with Zoraster, but I also don't think the blue thing is a good tell. I think he's been proactive in providing his reads, which is nice. Neutral, slightly-town.

Ordered list (scum to town):

Empking
Magua
Magister Ludi
hasdgfas
Oversoul
Cogito Ergo Sum

Vote: Empking

[Wraith]

@mockingjaye: My reasons for going onto Fourseen have been detailed to my satisfaction, and I will not be elaborating on them any further unless DTM draws my ire.

Though I think CES is scummy and diddin is sheepy, holy crap they see what I'm seeing right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

People not on my earlier list (excepting Diddin, who got added retroactively):

Benmage - Straight neutral, started scummy but some of his other posts have revealed town motivations, so I'm torn on him right now. We're both stubborn players, so I'm willing to give him a chance for now and revisit later.
MagnaofIllusion - Seems town, I think his push on Benmage for not voting me is coming from the right direction, since he could just be like all the others and let it happen since he thinks I'm scummy.
Deity of Flame - I was getting good vibes from him having a town read on me, but now I'm starting to feel like he might be the white knight of the bunch. The "Town vs Town" tell, plus Benmage having to ask him for reads three times to get an answer, plus randomly switching his vote onto me for no reason and then demanding Ludi give reasoning for thinking I'm town...all of those combined make me very worried about DoF.
Zdenek - First says my opinion seems honest, even if he disagrees with me, then says Benmage's case is "strong", because

The point that does it for me is MoS' vote on Benmage.

What does that even mean? I placed my vote on Benmage in my first post of the game, and when Zdenek replaced in he said he thought I was town. That's a really weak reason to jump on the wagon. Calling something a "bad" vote means nothing if you can't explain why it was bad.
Plum - My brain glazes over his roleplaying, which isn't really a good sign. I think his suspicion of me seems genuine, but I'm not sure why Plum seems so convinced that there is dissonance in Oversoul's color-related statements but is voting me instead.
Monday - Genuine reads, decent activity, made a very good point about how I am not only put under the light of a burden of proficiency argument, but that I'm getting accused of doing things that only an unskilled scum player would do. Reads town to me.
Wraith - It reads as genuine that he would be iffy about my wagon based on the iffy people already on it.
Feysal - Makes an excellent point about the scum color likely being yellow, not blue, based on Zoraster being yellow in the player list. His posting reads town to me, nothing stands out.
greenknight - Even if I disagree with his attacks on me (obviously), he's showing some critical thinking.

Off this list, I don't like Deity of Flame or Zdenek. My updated list of scumreads-to-neutral would probably be:

Empking
Magua
Zdenek
Magister Ludi
Deity of Flame
hasdgfas
Plum

Magua/Zdenek and Ludi/DoF are probably interchangeable at this point.

[Feysal]

Our time is starting to run short, and indecision reigns supreme. Mastermind of Sin has taken Oversoul's place as the leading wagon, but though I said earlier that he was an acceptable lynch, the more I've read his posts the more I feel he is also town. I can't say I would be certain of that beyond any reasonable doubt, but I no longer think he is a good lynch for today. Even more so since so many who are voting him have not given their reasons, making it impossible to discern their motivations after the flip, whether it is town or scum.

I have been reading this battle of walls between Benmage and MoS, but it is not pleasant, and I doubt it will lead to anything. Rather than involve myself in the bickering and pollute the thread with more noise, I would rather drop the subject and believe for now that MoS is town and look elsewhere. MoS seems to have the right idea with his analysis posts, but if he is to avert his lynch, focusing on a shorter list of suspects would probably help. Preferably just one. That said...



First time I tried this I got no attention at all. Perhaps the picture above works better, because I do think Magister Ludi has some explaining to do. And not just him, if he flips scum.

I searched through the ISOs of all players for mentions of Ludi, and the reads on him are almost unanimously negative, the sole exception being Benmage in post #399, though even his later comment in post #589 describes Ludi as useless. And let's face it, after my past experiences with Benmage as town, I would not blindly place my faith in his town reads. I also note that MoI did not include him in his list of low contributors, where he definitely belongs.

Everyone else who has ever mentioned Ludi has called him scum or suspicious. Oversoul was the first to call him out in #297. Mina labeled him as scummy in #501. Zdenek called him scum based on meta in #673. Shadow had him on his scum list in #706. hasdgfas called him probable scum for posting fluff in #765. And despite this, until I voted him, no one had ever voted him or made an effort to question him? Now why is that? My theory is that he is scum, and the other scum are happy to call attention to other low contributors while leaving him alone. It would not surprise me if the above list included a partner or two.

How certain am I about that? I skimmed through a number of his past games, town and scum alike, and the results are mixed. There was at least one town game where he started off as useless as here, and ended up being a day one mislynch. As scum he has at times been inactive as here, and sometimes a relatively frequent and argumentative poster. I don't think meta is a very strong point against him. The fact that he has apparently been allowed to coast this long looks much more suspect to me.

As for others on MoS's list, I am leaning town on Empking for his early activity. Magua is someone whose lynch I would support.

[zoraster]

Feysal 2011-11-13 22:56:55 0 days 0 hours 5

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'd still like him to explain why he thinks I'm a good vote, though.

"Good" in the sense of meaningful (i.e. pressure creating).

[Benmage]

Yawn*. I'm crashing early day tomorrow.

MoS is still scum. Someone goes from zilch activity and no reads to this spreee when suddenly the #1 lynch candidate. Yep scum scum scum.

[Eddard Stark]

Prodding Mina and Hasdgfas

Plum/Ooba/Shadow have all failed to post in response to a prod. I'll give some leeway as it's the weekend, though

[Magua]

Yawn. This game, with the walls.

@Mastermind of Sin:

You played with me in Chuck Season 1 Mafia. I tunneled Energetic Penguin D1.

Oversoul still needs to die. Seriously, I don't want to waste my one-shot vig on him tonight when we can just lynch him today. Bluegate. Unprompted VT claim in #284 when he was at L-5. Interactions with zoraster ("Ignore what he says ignore what he says oh that's a good point"). General coasting since then.

Death to the infidels

He needs to die.

Beyond Oversoul, I find Benmage to be Mayor Townie McTownie of Townsville. Mastermind of Sin is meh. Though provoking is generally townie in my mind, I don't like MoS' out-and-out passive aggression -- it's past helpful into harmful. Were it a choice between only Benmage and MoS, I would lynch MoS in a heartbeat. But Oversoul is there. So temptingly delicious.

DTMaster is probably scum, but I'm too lazy to put a case on him. Part of this is FourseenCircumstance replacing out of this game. The other part is DTMaster's posts. Starts out with not liking Monday for LARPing instead of playing mafia, proceeds to do the exact same thing. Everything after the initial post is pointless fluff, with waaaay too much detail on the color and Oversoul's PM than on Oversoul's play (or anything else, but I can't fault someone for tunneling Oversoul).

Magister Ludi seems to be trying to copy the Faraday style of play. Annoying, but not lynchworthy at this point. The worst thing I can say for him is his atrocious diddin vote.