Cyclic Experimentation Set x02 - [Game Over]


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Post Post #1525 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:10 pm

Post by Toogeloo »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:And ding you hit the bullseye. Why are you making any assumptions at all about the set-up? We know there is a Temaiti (or proper spelling) faction and we have a claimed Serial Killer. That%u2019s all Town should know at this stage.Yet your posting betrays that you may in fact know that there is only a Single Mafia faction. It%u2019s subtle but it%u2019s there and means if we determine down the line that only a single faction is likely you absolutely need rope if you are still among the living.

Wow... so if I believe Termiati is the only scum faction, you see me as scum, but if I don't include Daevori as a possible scum team, I am scum to SlySly. Guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. I have been posting this entire time based on the information we have present. Stringer suggested an SK when he flipped scum, therefore I believe one team (Termiati) and an SK. How hard is that to comprehend? There is NOTHING to suggest multiple teams yet, so why would I even consider that possibility?

Do you go into every game expecting multiple teams? Do you think, "this game probably has 4 Serial Killers, 10 Mafia between 3 teams, and maybe just me as the only town?" The most common setup of multiple factions is town, mafia, serial killer. I have seen nothing to suggest differently yet. You are misrepresenting my entire argument to make it seem like I have inside information.


Hey guess what. You got a Scum right and two Town right on Day 1. You have inside information to know so much about the players, mirite?
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Post Post #1526 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:14 pm

Post by Toogeloo »

If we lynch Sinestro today, since I know we won't have to worry about extra kills for a bit, I will GLADLY volunteer myself for lynching tomorrow just to remove myself as a distraction if you want Magna, but I swear to god, if you don't get lynched sometime shortly after me, I will be SORELY disappointed in this town for putting up with your bullshit manipulation cases. All you do is paint people as ugly as you possibly can. You don't actually use evidence, you have to twist every sentence that someone that you don't like says into a way for you to make them a target.
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Post Post #1527 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:17 pm

Post by I Am Innocent »

chkflip wrote:...
Page 6 -
.
.
.
Stringer Bell is so misunderstood. Poor guy. lulz. I think he's town if only for his posting as of this point. Same with warriormode. The latter is strongly due to meta (albeit only one game's worth), but I don't see the scum-motivation in either of their posts as other people are obviously biting right on to. Both wagons seem scum-pushed. (SB's wagon hasn't started yet, mind you, but it's a gut feeling at this point)
...


Yeah, don't like that last line.

The picture is starting to form. Esp why there were so many deaths last night. SB hid behind another enemy of the Eruci and bit the dust. What are the chances that SB picked the one enemy of the Eruci. Doubtful, so either he was the SK, or we got two (or more) teams of bad guys. If he is the SK, that was a risky ability to use N1 with so many likely enemies, so I am leaning towards 2 teams myself.

I'm guessing 3 and 3 to start, or 2 and 3 living now. Probably why there was no flavor for the death scenes (poison, shotgunning, etc) as both teams are on even footing.

SB, chkflp/diddin, and ML on one team. Sinaestro/?/? on another.

Enough for now, I'll continue my catch up.
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Post Post #1528 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:30 pm

Post by Junpei »

I think that MoI needs a closer look, things are not adding up, and it does not look good for him.

I'll get working on this and try to have something presentable before deadline if at all possible. Don't hammer Sinestro until I am able please.
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Post Post #1529 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:59 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

I Am Innocent wrote:
chkflip wrote:...
Page 6 -
.
.
.
Stringer Bell is so misunderstood. Poor guy. lulz. I think he's town if only for his posting as of this point. Same with warriormode. The latter is strongly due to meta (albeit only one game's worth), but I don't see the scum-motivation in either of their posts as other people are obviously biting right on to. Both wagons seem scum-pushed. (SB's wagon hasn't started yet, mind you, but it's a gut feeling at this point)
...


Yeah, don't like that last line.


Very, very good catch, IAI. Please don't let us forget about this one. chkflip is definitely not getting the sort of attention he deserves due to all the distractions taking place around us.

I still have a few things I want to respond to, but I thought this was important enough to justify a separate post.
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Post Post #1530 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:03 pm

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Toog wrote:Wow... so if I believe Termiati is the only scum faction, you see me as scum, but if I don't include Daevori as a possible scum team, I am scum to SlySly. Guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. I have been posting this entire time based on the information we have present. Stringer suggested an SK when he flipped scum, therefore I believe one team (Termiati) and an SK. How hard is that to comprehend? There is NOTHING to suggest multiple teams yet, so why would I even consider that possibility?


There is nothing that DOESN’T suggest multiple scum teams at this stage. Once again – you quote possibly slipped if the case that only one Mafia team exists. I'm not willing to just write of something very possible (especially given the strong indication at the end of Cycle X01 that adding a second full Mafia team would help balance out the set-up) just 'because'.

But since you think only one exists – please detail how all your scum picks make sense linked to Stringer scum.

Toog wrote:Do you go into every game expecting multiple teams?
Do you think, "this game probably has 4 Serial Killers, 10 Mafia between 3 teams, and maybe just me as the only town?"
The most common setup of multiple factions is town, mafia, serial killer. I have seen nothing to suggest differently yet. You are misrepresenting my entire argument to make it seem like I have inside information.


I go into every Large Theme game not expecting anything not told to me directly by the Mod. Suggesting otherwise is stupid (or just low level play). The bolded is scummy hyperbole meant to undermine. Nice touch.

Toog wrote:Hey guess what. You got a Scum right and two Town right on Day 1. You have inside information to know so much about the players, mirite?


Lulz. Nice WIFOM there Toog. Weren’t you just sarcasticly dismissing something else as that? Hypocrisy for the win!!!!!

Toog wrote: If we lynch Sinestro today, since I know we won't have to worry about extra kills for a bit, I will GLADLY volunteer myself for lynching tomorrow just to remove myself as a distraction if you want Magna, but I swear to god, if you don't get lynched sometime shortly after me, I will be SORELY disappointed in this town for putting up with your bullshit manipulation cases. All you do is paint people as ugly as you possibly can.
You don't actually use evidence
, you have to twist every sentence that someone that you don't like says into a way for you to make them a target.


Barring a cop Guilty / similar damning evidence tomorrow I will absolutely take you up on this Toog. Thanks for the offer (which I’m completely guessing is empty).

The bolded is Newb crap posting and AtE – what evidence do you want? Don’t like that cases not built on Follow the Cop actually can produce scum flips? Feeling 'caught' for the wrong reasons?
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Post Post #1531 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:05 pm

Post by SlySly »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
SlySly wrote:I do disagree that I fit your heading. I didn't start pushing a Junpei lynch when things got tight, and that is not what your list infers. My support for a Junpei lynch yesterday is very similar to my support for a Toogeloo lynch today. I stated my reason, voted, and nothing came up to make me change my stance, just like today with Toogeloo.


This is semantic quibbling. You are trying to shift the focus away from the facts by arguing about minor and inconsequential issues.

You say that you started pushing the Junpei wagon before Stringer was under fire. That doesn’t matter in the scheme of why I find your positioning suspicious. You continued to vote (and ostensibly support) the Junpei wagon all during the time when Stringer was a counterwagon and under fire. That’s behavior I expect from a possible partner.


It's only semantics because you seem to be changing the context of the root issue...

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Players who either abandoned Stringer or pushed NoPoint / Junpei when things were tight



Obviously, I never abandoned the SB wagon so you can cross me off this list for that.

I did support the Junpei wagon with my vote, but I think you are really stretching to say I actively pushed it, especially when things were "tight". You've worded your list heading in vague enough terms, "pushed" and "tight", to leave the door open for arguing semantics on terms that are not strictly measurable because the reader and writer could definitely be working with varying definitions of the chosen terms. Using the way I define "pushed" - an obvious, visible and confident (usually repeated/reinforced) action, and "tight" - when NP/Junpei were actually nearing the required votes for a lynch, I don't belong on your list. When you change the context of those terms is when it becomes semantics and you are no longer arguing the root issue.

Now, if you have quotes of me during times you define as "tight" for NP/Junpei where I was making obvious visible actions, maybe evening reinforcing my stances, to get NP/Junpei lynched, by all means, feel free to quote me. If not, you could just as easily say, "Well, you may not fit there, but you fit under this _________ heading then." Either would cut through any semantics debating.

-----------

FTR, Junpei is still not on my cleared list but there now are far bigger fish that have come forward to be fried than their was during the time of my exclusive suspicion on Junpei.
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Post Post #1532 (ISO) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by Magister Ludi »

I just finished a game firsthand witnessing toog as scum. He is playing very town here.
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Post Post #1533 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:52 am

Post by warriormode »

Toogeloo wrote:
Junpei wrote:Toog, are you denying that Sinestro is scum?

I've never tried to deny Sinestro as scanned scum. I am trying to determine the motivations of the rest of the play surrounding the whole situation because it just smells fishy.

Short version, I really don't get the impression that warrior really watched Sinestro last night. His play today has not suggested he thought Sinestro was scum or even third party, and the idea of choosing Sinestro to watch just doesn't resound right to me. Sinestro will likely be today's lynch due to both the info and the claim, but Warrior's motives are extremely questionable, the speed at which the wagon formed and lackluster reasoning for jumping aboard by several players is also questionable, and I just get the feeling that scum is trying to get rid of Sinestro in order to remove one of the few threats to them. Third party factions are often banes to scum due to the randomness of the role and they likeliness of losing a faction member to the player, so getting rid of Sinestro is definitely something they would want to do early.

The fact that Sinestro HAD to be third party the moment warrior claimed the info should have drawn scum to the lynch, either because warrior himself is scum trying to get rid of Sinestro, or because scum will want to take the opportunity to get rid of confirmed third party scum immediately.


So this basically says is that it was either scum or town motivation... nice!
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Post Post #1534 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:17 am

Post by I Am Innocent »

RedCoyote wrote:One of the rules states that there are no inherent "scum" or "town" abilities.


Can you post a link to this rule?
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Post Post #1535 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:00 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

MOD – I’ll be LA from today at 4PM til Monday for my normal family duties and Thanksgiving. I should be able to make some posts in that time but cannot commit to exactly when they will be.


--

SlySly wrote: Obviously, I never abandoned the SB wagon so you can cross me off this list for that.

I did support the Junpei wagon with my vote, but I think you are really stretching to say I actively pushed it, especially when things were "tight". You've worded your list heading in vague enough terms, "pushed" and "tight", to leave the door open for arguing semantics on terms that are not strictly measurable because the reader and writer could definitely be working with varying definitions of the chosen terms. Using the way I define "pushed" - an obvious, visible and confident (usually repeated/reinforced) action, and "tight" - when NP/Junpei were actually nearing the required votes for a lynch, I don't belong on your list. When you change the context of those terms is when it becomes semantics and you are no longer arguing the root issue.

Now, if you have quotes of me during times you define as "tight" for NP/Junpei where I was making obvious visible actions, maybe evening reinforcing my stances, to get NP/Junpei lynched, by all means, feel free to quote me. If not, you could just as easily say, "Well, you may not fit there, but you fit under this _________ heading then." Either would cut through any semantics debating.


In regards to the bolded – you explanation for the reason I should suspect you as possible Stringer partner when you were voting Junpei during the whole competing wagons phase is that you weren’t actively pushing Junpei by making visible actions and reinforcing statnces? I don’t exactly know what to make of this. You aren’t suspect because you just parked your vote and did nothing with it and at the same time a counterwagon on scum was being pushed? That’s pretty absurd.

Because I was curious based on the above response I went and looked at the time-frame when the wagons were really viably competing – from to when the wagons really got started til the point where Stringer topped out and his claim was near.

- Asking Drunken Piper if his opinions on Junpei or MagisterLudi.
- Suggesting that Junpei and ML are trying to ‘link’ me to them via some slip, suggestion you would wagon MagisterLudi
- Explaining how Junpei slipped regarding Junpei being Mafia with a QT.
, – Fluff responses.
– Suggesting Junpei would be scum with Implosion for the slip.
- Suggestion you should ISO Implosion related to the slip you claim on Junpei.
– Reference to Daytalk from Cyclical X01
– Response to DrunkenPiper that you don’t see Junpei as Town and he continues to make moves that you see as scummy.
– Question to implosion about his NoPoint vote.
– Fluffy response to RedCoyote on Drunken’s posting style, ask the following question “Why Stringer over Junpei?”

That’s your posting during that stage. Seeing it laid out – do you suggest you aren’t reinforcing your opinion / stance that Junpei was scum who needed to be lynched over Stringer during that period?
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Post Post #1536 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:15 am

Post by Toogeloo »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Toog wrote:Wow... so if I believe Termiati is the only scum faction, you see me as scum, but if I don't include Daevori as a possible scum team, I am scum to SlySly. Guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. I have been posting this entire time based on the information we have present. Stringer suggested an SK when he flipped scum, therefore I believe one team (Termiati) and an SK. How hard is that to comprehend? There is NOTHING to suggest multiple teams yet, so why would I even consider that possibility?


There is nothing that DOESN’T suggest multiple scum teams at this stage. Once again – you quote possibly slipped if the case that only one Mafia team exists. I'm not willing to just write of something very possible (especially given the strong indication at the end of Cycle X01 that adding a second full Mafia team would help balance out the set-up) just 'because'.

But since you think only one exists – please detail how all your scum picks make sense linked to Stringer scum.

Toog wrote:Do you go into every game expecting multiple teams?
Do you think, "this game probably has 4 Serial Killers, 10 Mafia between 3 teams, and maybe just me as the only town?"
The most common setup of multiple factions is town, mafia, serial killer. I have seen nothing to suggest differently yet. You are misrepresenting my entire argument to make it seem like I have inside information.


I go into every Large Theme game not expecting anything not told to me directly by the Mod. Suggesting otherwise is stupid (or just low level play). The bolded is scummy hyperbole meant to undermine. Nice touch.

Toog wrote:Hey guess what. You got a Scum right and two Town right on Day 1. You have inside information to know so much about the players, mirite?


Lulz. Nice WIFOM there Toog. Weren’t you just sarcasticly dismissing something else as that? Hypocrisy for the win!!!!!

Toog wrote: If we lynch Sinestro today, since I know we won't have to worry about extra kills for a bit, I will GLADLY volunteer myself for lynching tomorrow just to remove myself as a distraction if you want Magna, but I swear to god, if you don't get lynched sometime shortly after me, I will be SORELY disappointed in this town for putting up with your bullshit manipulation cases. All you do is paint people as ugly as you possibly can.
You don't actually use evidence
, you have to twist every sentence that someone that you don't like says into a way for you to make them a target.


Barring a cop Guilty / similar damning evidence tomorrow I will absolutely take you up on this Toog. Thanks for the offer (which I’m completely guessing is empty).

The bolded is Newb crap posting and AtE – what evidence do you want? Don’t like that cases not built on Follow the Cop actually can produce scum flips? Feeling 'caught' for the wrong reasons?

-There is nothing to suggest multiple teams at this point either. I would never even consider multiple teams unless someone's role suggested it, or we saw different flips. I will correct my reads later when I figure that information out. I always assume one team, then I add the rest of the mechanics as the game unfolds.
-I am amazed that you picked up on the hyperbole, but you didn't pick up on the sarcastic argument about your inside information. Must have been a little truth in that part, huh?
-Not empty at all. My comments about how I typically play scummy, my lurkish Day 1, my vig shot. I imagine each and every one of these is highly distracting to people. So if I must sacrifice myself so that I am not a distraction late game, I will do so. However, once my flip happens, people will see how antagonistic and manipulative you have been of my posts, and I am hopeful you gain the scrutiny you deserve.

--My scum reads have been MoI, PV, Junpei, wazzatron/IAI, warrior, and Bunny.
-Bunny gets less and less lucrative to me as a scum read while the others get more prominent. Bunny was a gut read on one post in Day 1.
-PV and Junpei are linked by Junpei's post somewhat defending PV stating if PV was lurking, he would vote for him (Which PV was doing).
-wazzatron/IAI have been opportunistic on their attacks, throwing support against players which have already been attacked by other players.
-I don't trust Warrior's scan, and I read it as an opportunity for the scum team to get rid of third party since they found him on accident when their mate hid behind him.
-I detest your play so far. You have clung to "town status" because you claimed Stringer scum and nopoint and Furc town; something not difficult to do as scum mind you. Almost all your arguments against other players have been constantly questioning their reads and motivations in such a manner that you paint them scummy for thinking in the way they do. You twist player's posts to mold them into looking scummier than they should instead of reading them at face value.
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Post Post #1537 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:18 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

That list doesn't bother to actually answer my question - I asked you to assess them from the standpoint of how they were likely a Stringer partner given your 1 Mafia team stance. The only assessment that even mentions Stringer is mine, and even then it is oblique.

Again - please assess your candidates in terms of them being Stringer partners via interactions /motivations.
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Post Post #1538 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:21 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Toogeloo wrote:-Not empty at all. My comments about how I typically play scummy, my lurkish Day 1, my vig shot. I imagine each and every one of these is highly distracting to people. So if I must sacrifice myself so that I am not a distraction late game, I will do so. However, once my flip happens, people will see how antagonistic and manipulative you have been of my posts, and I am hopeful you gain the scrutiny you deserve.


So let me get this straight - you are specifically saying how all of these elements of your play are 'highly distracting' - you are specifically suggesting that they can easily be perceived as scum motivated play.

Then you suggest I'm scummy manipulative for suspecting you for those exact elements?

That's some rather brutal inconsistency on your part.
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Post Post #1539 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:27 am

Post by Toogeloo »

At least I can admit that my playstyle isn't the most pro-town play. You still don't think you have manipulated anything.
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Post Post #1540 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:54 am

Post by SlySly »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Seeing it laid out – do you suggest you aren’t reinforcing your opinion / stance that Junpei was scum who needed to be lynched over Stringer during that period?


It is an extreme reach to fit me under the heading in question. You have completely dumped the context of what I was saying in much of your list. For instance, in your last point, I was asking DP to convince me that SB was a better lynch than Junpei.
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Post Post #1541 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:56 am

Post by SlySly »

EBWOP: DP = RC
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Post Post #1542 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:57 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

SlySly wrote:It is an extreme reach to fit me under the heading in question. You have completely dumped the context of what I was saying in much of your list. For instance, in your last point, I was asking DP to convince me that SB was a better lynch than Junpei.


How were those posts not in context when you were directly interacting with Junpei and saying he was scum for multiple reasons?

Again - are you explictly saying those posts don't show you directly indicating our vote on Junpei was valid and supporting it?
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Post Post #1543 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:07 am

Post by SlySly »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
How were those posts not in context when you were directly interacting with Junpei and saying he was scum for multiple reasons?

Again - are you explictly saying those posts don't show you directly indicating our vote on Junpei was valid and supporting it?


I will get into the first part after work, I don't have time to address them individually atm.

The second part, I'm saying those posts, IMO, don't show a push as the heading suggests.
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Post Post #1544 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:25 am

Post by PeregrineV »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:--

Peregrine wrote: No, I gain the ability of the person who dies.

So I have to know who is going to be killed at night. Please explain how town would ever know this?
But, with recent developments, we could have passed thw ability to the SK who could kill and rip the power from his victims, and then send the powert back to town. Right? :roll:


Town should be able to make a pretty good read of who they think might die at Night and take their best educated guess. And down the line it’s would have been great defense when a Player has to claim a strong passed ability to survive lynch.

I don't understand this. How can claiming to have passed an ability allow someone to "survive lynch"?
MagnaofIllusion wrote:Your little Appeal to Fear is noted for coming days.

Glad you took note of it. What fear did I appeal to actually?

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Peregrine wrote:But seriously, can you see how the role I dumped benefits scum more than it benefits town?


But seriously, how can you continue to not see that the strength of cycling powers isn’t just in their usefulness as roles but in the many PoE eliminations they can create over the course of days?

OK, so you'll have to explain this also. If player A passes to player B who passes to player C who passes to player D, how the hell does that catch scum?
MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Peregrine wrote:No, and the power night1 was my responsibility. I don't consider it useful for town, since town consists of me and dead people. If, in my mind, I had someone I could confirm, I might have passed to them (if the vig had plugged scum, for example, I'd probably have sent it to him).


WTF did you sign up for this game if your attitude is “I can only pass to confirmed Town and I’m too stubbornly stupid to understand that passing is good long term”? This question is null and void, of course, if you are scum. Then you are doing a great job looking the part.

1.That's not my attitude.
2. I probably am stubbornly stupid.
3. I don't understand
EXACTLY
how passing clears anyone. But, I mentioned that in the repsonse above, so when you answer that this will become meaningless.
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Post Post #1545 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:27 am

Post by PeregrineV »

Toogeloo wrote:If we lynch Sinestro today, since I know we won't have to worry about extra kills for a bit, I will GLADLY volunteer myself for lynching tomorrow just to remove myself as a distraction if you want Magna, but I swear to god, if you don't get lynched sometime shortly after me, I will be SORELY disappointed in this town for putting up with your bullshit manipulation cases. All you do is paint people as ugly as you possibly can. You don't actually use evidence, you have to twist every sentence that someone that you don't like says into a way for you to make them a target.


If you know this, then why do you let it get to you? MoI's posts should receive as much weight or credence as your read on him dictates.
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Post Post #1546 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:59 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Peregrine wrote:OK, so you'll have to explain this also. If player A passes to player B who passes to player C who passes to player D, how the hell does that catch scum?


Did you not read the first game at all?

Example of clearing connnections via passing.

Player A passes to Player B Night 1.
Player B passes to Player C Night 2.
Day 3 Player B doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus A and B can’t be aligned together.
Player C passes to Player D Night 3.
Day 4 Player C doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus B and C can’t be aligned together.

Much later in the game those web of links creates a powerful set of PoE eliminations that can be used on top of play to find scum late-game.

Example of finding scum via deaths

Player A passes to Player B Night 1.
Player B passes to Player C Night 2.
Day 3 Player B doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus A and B can’t be aligned together.
Day 4 Player C dies from ‘Passing’. It is known that PlayerB and PlayerC are aligned together.

Via the publicly claimed information (such as who passed to who Night 2 it can be determined who passed to PlayerC. Said player is lynched as outed scum.

In both cases each passing power that survives a Night increases the amount of information available to Town. The longer the powers stay in play the stronger the PoE possibilities become. This is absolutely why specifically Voiding any powers is at best strongly Anti-Town and a good scum strategy.
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Post Post #1547 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:09 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Toogeloo wrote:At least I can admit that my playstyle isn't the most pro-town play. You still don't think you have manipulated anything.


You didn't answer the questions put to you but just took another little pot-shot.

Do you think it's helpful to Town to do so?
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Post Post #1548 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:41 am

Post by Toogeloo »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Peregrine wrote:OK, so you'll have to explain this also. If player A passes to player B who passes to player C who passes to player D, how the hell does that catch scum?


Did you not read the first game at all?

Example of clearing connnections via passing.

Player A passes to Player B Night 1.
Player B passes to Player C Night 2.
Day 3 Player B doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus A and B can’t be aligned together.
Player C passes to Player D Night 3.
Day 4 Player C doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus B and C can’t be aligned together.

Much later in the game those web of links creates a powerful set of PoE eliminations that can be used on top of play to find scum late-game.

Example of finding scum via deaths

Player A passes to Player B Night 1.
Player B passes to Player C Night 2.
Day 3 Player B doesn’t die immediately at Day start. Thus A and B can’t be aligned together.
Day 4 Player C dies from ‘Passing’. It is known that PlayerB and PlayerC are aligned together.

Via the publicly claimed information (such as who passed to who Night 2 it can be determined who passed to PlayerC. Said player is lynched as outed scum.

In both cases each passing power that survives a Night increases the amount of information available to Town. The longer the powers stay in play the stronger the PoE possibilities become. This is absolutely why specifically Voiding any powers is at best strongly Anti-Town and a good scum strategy.
For someone who makes no assumptions about the game, you make a lot of assumptions that scum can't pass abilities to each other via some other method.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Toogeloo wrote:At least I can admit that my playstyle isn't the most pro-town play. You still don't think you have manipulated anything.


You didn't answer the questions put to you but just took another little pot-shot.

Do you think it's helpful to Town to do so?

My reads are independent of each other. Not all 6 people I have named as scum are going to flip that way, I am not that savant-like. Reads change as the game progresses. For now though, I can safely say that Junpei, Warrior, and wazzatron/IAI were not on the Stringer vote train. You were third, which is the ample point to put a bus vote down. PV is more gut because of Junpei's comment, and as I mentioned before Bunny is a read slipping away simply because of a comment she made on Day 1.

And don't pretend that we haven't been trading pot shots all day. How am I scum, besides my "slip" that I seem to know the setup? Or are you just going to bash every sentence I say as "sarcasm, hyperbole, pot shots, and slips?"

I have methods to my madness that require me to not always be 100% pro-town, so yes, it does help town, whether they understand it or not at the time. It does blow up in my face plenty, but I accept that I can't always do what I think is right, but I have grown to trust my gut, and when I think something should be done, anti-town or pro-town, I will do it.
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Post Post #1549 (ISO) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:58 am

Post by Ghostlin »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Toogeloo wrote:At least I can admit that my playstyle isn't the most pro-town play. You still don't think you have manipulated anything.


You didn't answer the questions put to you but just took another little pot-shot.

Do you think it's helpful to Town to do so?


I'm
going to post a retort to this because I kinda am worried where you're going with this. Just because it's useful for Town to do (or helpful), doesn't mean it's not necessarily by definition, not useful for scum to do. At best, without using a fallacy, you can argue that Toog singling you out is WIFOMic based and not necessarily based on your alignment.

What's worse is this is one of those questions where the questioner (in this case MoI) asked, knowing full well it could be used to discredit Toog regardless of the answer:

1) If Toog says "No", he's discredited most of the most powerful Town Leaders/case makers on this site. (Ironically, MoI himself might be on this list.) A lot of a lynch is getting people to lynch your target, and a well argued case or the right sentiment at the right time is a big part of that. It could easily be classed as manipulative, like selling someone a car.

There are players who don't try to manipulate you, but those are people like chesskid who don't really form arguments in the first place.

2) If Toog says "Yes", then he's seemingly discredited that part of the read against MoI.

3) If Toog doesn't answer the question, then MoI can argue the point that Toog's avoiding it.

Thing that worries me? MoI almost certainly knows everything I posted above is true.
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