[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Whiskers]

Now, I hate large games, and this is really more of Theme game fodder, but how about this:

1 King (Beloved Princess (If Nightkilled, Skip the next Dayphase))
1 One-shot Vigilante (Queen)
1 Doctor (Bishop)
1 Cop (Knight)
1 One-shot Bulletproof (Rook)
6 Pawns (Vanilla)

1 Mafia Bishop (Doctors a player, but also negates the doctor protection on a double-doc'd player)
1 Mafia Knight (Rolecop)
1 Mafia Rook (One-shot Bulletproof)
2 Mafia Pawns. (Goons)

[Junpei]

that could be a good closed game with some work I think; but probably not such a good open.

[Trevor]

3 VTs
2 of the following (random):
Cop
Doctor
Watcher
1 mafia goon
1 mafia roleblocker (negates cop, doctor, or watcher)
Day start

[Trevor]

2 of the following refer to cop, watcher and doc.

[Whiskers]

I know, sorry. That was mean and I shouldn't have posted it.

[izakthegoomba]

The goon and the RB are always there. It's a 7P.

And it's swingy, and probably scum-sided.

Town needs more power or scum needs to lose the RB. And the watcher needs to go. Find another fix.

[Trevor]

Town's power lies in the mislynch and the fact that scum cannot find power roles outside of claims.

[mykonian]

3 VTs
2 of the following (random):
Cop
Doctor
Watcher
1 mafia goon
1 mafia roleblocker (negates cop, doctor, or watcher)
Day start

7p's can do with heavy town power. They don't work really well with scum power, simply because 7p mountainous is so incredibily scumsided. Just do the calculations for yourself. Where the old newby game didn't even get a 50% winrate with a cop a doc and a mafia RB, you do expect this to work in a 7p (the old newby game was 9p). I don't think this is such a good idea.

Town's power lies in the mislynch and the fact that scum cannot find power roles outside of claims.

Town generally gets more then one mislynch. Here they don't. scum chance of winning randomly is: 5/7*3/5+5/7*2/5*2/3+2/7*4/5*2/3 = 81/105 or 77%. You need quite a bit of power to pull into somewhat reasonable shape, and because you have only a few nights to do that, you can't really afford to weaken them. The mafia doesn't need a counter, there is no time, nor room for a follow the cop strategy, and the nightkill generally works as a pretty good counter anyway.

[Trevor]

Town shouldn't get more than one mislynch in a 2-scum normal setup.

[Whiskers]

...so the Newbie games need to be made smaller? In my Perfect Scum Win Newbie Game, we lynched one, two, and I think three townies to get endgame.
Look. Trevor. EpicMafia works on a different level than MafiaScum does. If your setup has a breaking strategy, or near-breaking strategy (Whisper claims to Vig), it's not going to be played here -- not as an open. What works on EM due to impulsiveness of the players doesn't on MS, where you literally have three weeks to think about something. Take the Ten Minutes that an EM Day takes, and stretch it to Three Weeks.

How many games have you played/read here, Trevor?

[Trevor]

Neither setup I suggested is gamebreaking and they are both quite balanced imo.

[Whiskers]

Watcher is weak compared to cop.
While the Cop tells you for sure the alignment of a player,
And the Doc potentially provides the town with an "extra life" of sorts,
The Watcher tells you if a player is [Vanilla/Used their power] or Not.

It's just not as important.
The 2of4 Newbie Setup uses a Jailkeeper and a Mafia Roleblocker. It also adds Two Vanilla Townies to your setup.

i'm done for a while. I really can't argue with any sense, I'm not a master in balance either. But I can compare to the other, balance-reviewed and balance-tested setups, and say that your setup favors scum in most scenarios.

(btw, why a seven-player setup at all? I know on EM, the smaller the setup, the faster it will fill. Why is that good on MS?)

[Trevor]

The point of the 2/3 power roles is to add some doubt and give mafia a chance to counterclaim both power roles by claiming the power role that doesn't exist. The watcher can catch the scum NK, roleblock, or a town pr visit.

2of4 is a townsided setup. An unkilled cop simply catching one scum before lylo really damns the scum. The JK is an extremely powerful role as well especially because only one scum preforms the NK. The outcome of 2of4 depends on the prs the town has and how well they are concealed.

What's wrong with smaller setups? I find setups bigger than 11 people impossible to scumhunt for the first few days.

[Whiskers]

The outcome of 2of4 depends on the prs the town has and how well they are concealed.

Wait, wait, I thought the point was to scumhunt! Remember?

Also, your 2/3 power roles is just the same as 2of4 power roles-- it gives mafia a chance to counterclaim/non-existent claim.

The JK can block a Nightkill, but who cares? So can a Doctor. So that doesn't make the JK "Extremely powerful."
The cop catching a scum before lylo "fucks scum" in any setup-- right?

The watcher can watch PRs or Mafia, but who cares? Unless it comes down to massclaiming-- which most games don't afaik-- and the watched player with an action claims VT, or unless all the other Town PRs die, the watcher can just discern between vanilla and non vanilla roles, and who cares?

In one of the scenarios above, (The player claims VT, but was watched with an action) (The other Town PRs are dead), in the first one, a town PR might claim to be a VT for some reason. In the second, it's just a cop, so who cares?

[Faraday]

The 2of4 Newbie Setup uses a Jailkeeper and a Mafia Roleblocker. It also adds Two Vanilla Townies to your setup.

Rolecop.

And don't compare the Jailer and Doctor, the Jailer IS really powerful in a newbie.

Also watcher is a pretty damn powerful PR, in a small game it's not that hard to predict who's going to be killed.

[Whiskers]

My bad. Also, yes, the Jailer is powerful, but not really for the reason he said.

What does predicting who is going to be killed have to do with watcher being a powerful PR? How is watcher-- sorry, I was confusing it with Tracker. My bad.

[Junpei]

I know, sorry. That was mean and I shouldn't have posted it.

???

Trevor: town have no reliable source of information. With only 1 night before lylo, watcher and cop really aren't of use at all with the PR-uncertainty. In fact, I'd say town is best off mass claiming day 1, as they are assured protection and 1 clear for lylo.

Tell me why town should not mass claim day 1.

[Trevor]

Nothing wrong with town massclaiming before lylo. Scum can cc a power role or just sit in the VTs. 2 scum in 5 VT claims, town has a mislynch, 2 scum in 4 VT claims on lylo. Not bad odds.

[Whiskers]

2 cop claims, 1 doc claim, 1 watcher claim.

You have one mislynch to decide who is scum.

Go.

[Junpei]

Trevor, this isn't epicmafia; I will never play a setup whose optimal strategy is to mass claim day 1 and lynch CCs. That is just boring.

[Trevor]

2 cop claims, 1 doc claim, 1 watcher claim.

You have one mislynch to decide who is scum.

Go.

Since there are two power roles and two scum, both are claiming power roles, clearing everyone else. You lynch between cops for a 100% scum, worst case scenario, 3-way lylo.

Trevor, this isn't epicmafia; I will never play a setup whose optimal strategy is to mass claim day 1 and lynch CCs. That is just boring.

Scum doesn't have to cc anything, town claiming isn't the optimal play anyways.

[Whiskers]

What

is

the optimal play then, and why does EM always massclaim...?

Also, let's say you lynch the scumcop. Cop has inno on dead Doc. Whom do you lynch?

[Whiskers]

Ahaha, I just fucked myself. Nevermind- use the mislynch on the Watcher, then lynch the other scumcop.

So really, optimal play is to clain one Townie (thus poisoning that well), and claim one PR.

[izakthegoomba]

Whiskers, EM is terrible compared to MS. I made an account there, and abandoned it before I even joined a game. It was that bad.

You can't expect to find rational play there.

[Junpei]

If you care about your setup: do the following:

1) make a list of all possible setup permutations

2) assume day 1 mass claim

3) determine all the different possible claiming patterns mafia have

4) determine optimal town play going forward for each claiming pattern in each instance.

If you come back and post the results and they don't signal a bad/broken setup; then I'll take it seriously, but my intuition (albeit it isn't great, but I would hope it isn't that bad) is screaming that this setup is a "Lame-Mass-Claim-CC-Game"

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