Open 379: JK9++ (Game Over)

[The Mini-Librarian]

@Phil: Near the end of the day, after we've pretty much chosen a lynch.

[IceGuy]

@Phil: Near the end of the day, after we've pretty much chosen a lynch.

This. Of course the hider should make an informed decision.

[Candy Corn Vampire]

what exactly is the point of the hypo-hider claim again? there seem to several roles that would complicate getting info this type of claim, like bus driver.

do we also have to pick different people or can we pick the same people as others choose? do we do this on day 2, 3, etc as well?

@Mod: the hider pm you've provided us only mentions that hiding makes kills targeting the player fail. however, this doesn't match the wiki's definition. Do all night actions fail when targeting the hider?

[Phillammon]

I tried to ask that myself. The answer is ambiguous, in a "let's hope no-one notices the possibility of PRs" sort of way. Though I could be wrong.

[IceGuy]

what exactly is the point of the hypo-hider claim again? there seem to several roles that would complicate getting info this type of claim, like bus driver.

More information. We want to know whom the hider targetted when he dies.

do we also have to pick different people or can we pick the same people as others choose? do we do this on day 2, 3, etc as well?

No and yes.

[Phillammon]

what exactly is the point of the hypo-hider claim again? there seem to several roles that would complicate getting info this type of claim, like bus driver.

As mentione earlier, we have no kill flavours, along with possible vigs and SKs which would give a false positives, possible docs, commuters and jailers which would give false negatives, and possible bus drivers who would just mess everything up. That adds up to a whole pile of easily exploited WIFOM, to a newbie's mind, if guided slightly by others.

[Phillammon]

Gah, messed that up. I meant to quote your first point, and *mentioned.

[Candy Corn Vampire]

hiders would die if they targeted a serial kill (not a false positive), nor would hiders die if they targeted vigs. I am mainly worried about a potential bus driver, esp with multiple people targeting the same person.

also is the goal of the hider to pick someone townie so they won't die or to try to give the town a free investigation?

[IceGuy]

Investigative rules should always pick somebody whose alignment is unclear, and will likely not become clearer as the game progresses.

[Candy Corn Vampire]

I disagree that hider would be considered an investigative role, more of a self protective role. This strategy is trying to turn it into one, but i think there is a lot of ways for it to go awry.

[Lord Mhork]

Just realized this began. Give me a sec to catch up on the Random situation.

[Lord Mhork]

Hmm... I think, as I was late to the party, I'm going to try doing this without random voting. Instead, I give you these informations to look at.

Chevre, can you give us the old roles for each person?

While seeming not to be serious, I don't like this post. There's no relevancy to this question, provides no real information to work with, and generally seems to be a "Hey! I'm doing stuff!" post.

I was just curious.

Anyway, TML looks town for trying to move the game along faster. Discuss.

This looks like more "I'm doing stuff" posting. I fail to see how The Mini-Librarian was moving the game forward in his first three posts. Would you mind explaining, kondi?

Hmm. On what do you base TML's townieness, and another, hypothetical point: Can certain PRs confirm the existence of others? Example: Commuters can confirm Hider's existence?

TML looks town for trying to move the game along faster.

And yes, but I hadn't thought of it that way before. It looks like 1-Shot Trackers know there's a regular Tracker alive, Doctors know there's a Jailkeeper if there's already a flipped Doctor, Commuters know there's a Hider, Vigs/Vengefuls know there's the other alive if one of their own is flipped, and Gunsmiths know there's a Rolecop if there's already a dead Gunsmith.

Again, more "Look at me!" posting. Look at the train of thought there. It's a wreck! It's terribly convoluted and doesn't produce any new information. Anyone could make those conclusions if they bothered to check the Opening Post. Why do you feel the need to state the obvious, kondi?

VOTE: kondi2424

[Maruchan]

Also: About the mass hide claim: Let's say I am scum. If I kill someone who was claiming to hide behind Townie McTownerson, and an unrelated actual hider hides behind one of us and dies, what does that tell town? Alternatively, if the actual mafia kill is protected and the hider death is found instead. Or if a vig pegged someone, or anything similar. How does the hypoclaim help?

Hider claims he is hiding behind bob

hider dies

we lynch bob

[Maruchan]

hiders would die if they targeted a serial kill (not a false positive), nor would hiders die if they targeted vigs. I am mainly worried about a potential bus driver, esp with multiple people targeting the same person.

also is the goal of the hider to pick someone townie so they won't die or to try to give the town a free investigation?

I pointed this out last game. We decided that having multiple pope claim to hide behind same person = bad

Which is why it is a good idea to start the hider hypo right at L2, and get your claim in quick.

[Maruchan]

Hmm... I think, as I was late to the party, I'm going to try doing this without random voting. Instead, I give you these informations to look at.

Chevre, can you give us the old roles for each person?

While seeming not to be serious, I don't like this post. There's no relevancy to this question, provides no real information to work with, and generally seems to be a "Hey! I'm doing stuff!" post.

I was just curious.

Anyway, TML looks town for trying to move the game along faster. Discuss.

This looks like more "I'm doing stuff" posting. I fail to see how The Mini-Librarian was moving the game forward in his first three posts. Would you mind explaining, kondi?

Hmm. On what do you base TML's townieness, and another, hypothetical point: Can certain PRs confirm the existence of others? Example: Commuters can confirm Hider's existence?

TML looks town for trying to move the game along faster.

And yes, but I hadn't thought of it that way before. It looks like 1-Shot Trackers know there's a regular Tracker alive, Doctors know there's a Jailkeeper if there's already a flipped Doctor, Commuters know there's a Hider, Vigs/Vengefuls know there's the other alive if one of their own is flipped, and Gunsmiths know there's a Rolecop if there's already a dead Gunsmith.

Again, more "Look at me!" posting. Look at the train of thought there. It's a wreck! It's terribly convoluted and doesn't produce any new information. Anyone could make those conclusions if they bothered to check the Opening Post. Why do you feel the need to state the obvious, kondi?

VOTE: kondi2424

Kondi is the same person who asked the mod for the roles?

I didn't notice that. X.X

in that case,

Vote: Kondi

thanks for pointing that out.

[kondi2424]

Hmm... I think, as I was late to the party, I'm going to try doing this without random voting. Instead, I give you these informations to look at.

Chevre, can you give us the old roles for each person?

While seeming not to be serious, I don't like this post. There's no relevancy to this question, provides no real information to work with, and generally seems to be a "Hey! I'm doing stuff!" post.

That post didn't do anything. See the bolded part in my next quote for explanation on why I posted this, if you really need it.

I was just curious.

Anyway, TML looks town for trying to move the game along faster. Discuss.

This looks like more "I'm doing stuff" posting. I fail to see how The Mini-Librarian was moving the game forward in his first three posts. Would you mind explaining, kondi?

Once again, not sure how you missed this. Post #23 was trying to DIVERT from the discussion of last game and move onto the discussion of this game.

Hmm. On what do you base TML's townieness, and another, hypothetical point: Can certain PRs confirm the existence of others? Example: Commuters can confirm Hider's existence?

TML looks town for trying to move the game along faster.

And yes, but I hadn't thought of it that way before. It looks like 1-Shot Trackers know there's a regular Tracker alive, Doctors know there's a Jailkeeper if there's already a flipped Doctor, Commuters know there's a Hider, Vigs/Vengefuls know there's the other alive if one of their own is flipped, and Gunsmiths know there's a Rolecop if there's already a dead Gunsmith.

Again, more "Look at me!" posting. Look at the train of thought there. It's a wreck! It's terribly convoluted and doesn't produce any new information. Anyone could make those conclusions if they bothered to check the Opening Post. Why do you feel the need to state the obvious, kondi?

So... how is this scummy, exactly? Phill even said he was goind to do this in his next post if I hadn't already. What did you want me to comment on,

sir

? It feels like you were going to do this no matter what I posted.

VOTE: kondi2424

Responses bolded. Also, I'm pretty sure I could make you look scummy the same way using just that post.

Hmm... I think, as I was late to the party, I'm going to try doing this without random voting. Instead, I give you these informations to look at.

"Oh look I'm giving information instead of RVS! I'M SO USEFUL"

[Chimera]

...sheesh...this gained steam quick. Can't thoroughly read up here but one thing is clear; Phil is town. That much seems obvious. And what's the big deal about asking for roles from last game...? If anything that's a townish move. I say this every game that I give little credit to meta but other's often use it a lot, so gathering a bit of meta like that is scum-hunting...not a lot, but it's not exactly scummy.

[Candy Corn Vampire]

kondi wasn't looking for meta with that question because he wasn't in the last game to make inferences based on that.

[kondi2424]

I was in last game... but I didn't ask for it for the sake of scumhunting.

[Candy Corn Vampire]

oh nevermind then soorry.

[Maruchan]

lol. Kondi you get ballz points for your last post, if nothing else. "I am going to through your defense of me out the window, but thanks though!"

[kondi2424]

Well it wasn't true, now was it?

[Maruchan]

throw* spelling mistake. js

[Phillammon]

Okay. What I was meaning about sk and vig giving false positive and so on:
1) False positive
Mafia kills Bob
SK/Vig kills Alice the Hider
We end up lynching whoever alice/bob claimed to hide behind

2)False negative)
Mafia Kills Bob
Doc saves Bob
Alice the Hider targets mafia and dies
We have no idea whether that was a WIFOM mafia kill, or a regular hider death.

[Phillammon]

Wait, forget that, ignore my posts, I forgot the hider's *actual* benefit that sets him apart from just being weak. My fault, move along.