Open 385 - No Lynching Town - GAME OVER

[Vincent2128]

UNVOTE:

Why did you do nothing in your first post?

Why did you answer the questions later?

What is your read on Meta?

I did nothing simply because I was in a hurry, nothing more.

I answered later, because I thought again. Why not answer the questions?

another point i have to make is

shotgun posts questions
sleepy flat out doesnt answer them
ppl ask sleepy y
he says hes pro and ppl should do newbie games

that sounds like a plot discussed before hand

No.

On Meta:
Right from the start he's been talking about his meta

A bit of meta on me (and I say this every game, regardless of alignment): I'm really very very derpy, and make mistakes such as misreading my role PMs (My first newbie game got to day 5 or something before I realized *I* was the remaining maf xP), fossing my own cop clears, forgetting people's names. I scumhunt kind through logic, and i'm not all that good at picking out scum, but I like trying. I believe in transparency, and I like to get a very good grip of whats going on, so I'll usually out my reads in bursts.

Not sure if exaggerating, trolling or truth. Meta, enlighten me.

Pack: is that a real fos, or a RVS fos?

First a little question with Packbat, then Meta pretty much agrees with everything Pack says.

Pack seems town to me. The prodding of me to post more certainly is town.

Spoiler: Gunny

In both posts 9 and 26, you quote post 7 (Vincent asking if you're bluffing), but you reply differently both times. Can you explain this dissonance?

I'd like to see what Gunny responds to this.


AcRv is becoming obvtown.

[Junpei]

Vote Count 1.2

Metabot (

L-3

): drmyshotgun
andrew94 (L-3): SleepyKrew
Vincent2128 (L-3): Packbat

Not Voting

: AcRv, Metabot, andrew94, Vincent2128

With 7 alive, it is 4 to lynch, and 4 to no lynch.

Deadline

: Saturday April 7th, 2012 ; 6 PM EST

V/LAs

:

Replacements

:

Other

: Your hair and fingernails don't actually keep growing after you die. It only seems like they keep growing because as your body dries out, your skin shrinks.

[Metabot]

Spoiler: Notes

Right-O, here you go. Lets try to do some scumhunting on two pages of material. Remember, I'm hungry.

Basically, a lot of my early game play has to do with playing somewhat scummily (while being protown) and seeing how people react. Once I even faked being a intelligble newb, breadcrumbed I was reactiontesting, and scumslipped twice to see what would happen.

Chronological analyses:
2,4 Sleepy: I don't really understand this still. He votes someone completely randomly, seemingly, and then after someone else posts, comments that he is keeping the vote because "uselessness." And then he says RVS is over. Sleepy, why did you say RVS was over?
3,5 Shotty: Null to me. Maybe his "questions" was a reaction to sleepy's vote, but I doubt it.
6 Vincent: Once again, why are you nervous... its a good thing if he can actually tell town from scum.
10 Shotty: Denies knowing me.. important later.
15 Shotty: While his denial of knowing andrew seems weird, in hindsight it should have been obvious he was just making sure he wasn't being confused with his evil twin.
19 Sleepy: What was your original vote reason? Completely random?
21 AcRv: I like this guy too. He's probably going to be productive in the future.
23 Sleepy: way to not be useful.
25, 30 Pack: Looks genuine. He seemed to first attempt to deflect my question, because he didn't want to answer it.
26 Shotty: Lotta stuff here!:
Okay, nvm my statement about how I doubt his thing was a reaction to sleepy's vote. Could be, especially because he says its his first time using it. Why did he decide to do this? Why a change in meta?
He also says its weird that I should ask him to remember me, which is not true, because if I know someone who denies knowing me, I'd obviously try to jog his memory.
Why does it bother you on the fact that I "bothered to acknowledge the possible outcome of [my] choice"?

Here's another person trying to act as if he knows me. Notice the tripple "S" he puts there? I think you mistake me for Drmyshottyizsik? Cuz you don't bother to say "wasssup" to anyone else but me. Or are you just following your buddy Metabot on this?Or are you doing this on purpose to annoy me.

Seems to be overreacting on this name thingy. Sounds like he doesn't really like the attention.
33 packbat: Good point. Nice Catch.
35 Shotty: refuses to answer question posed by sleepy, "You said you can discern alignments. Well?"
50 Andrew:

er i also dont agree about the part where acrv chooses sk( i think he said in a previous game of mine that he likes sk?)

What does that mean?
52 Vincent: Don't like his vote of Andrew. It sounds genuine, despite the fact that he should know better (if what AcRV says is true)
56 AcRv: Towny for defending easy meat. I'd imagine scum would be more "hrm, perhaps I should jump on this guy"
57 Bat: In hindsight, this looked like very blatant buddying, but I was more referring to the other two comments xP. No one will believe me, but w/e.
61 shotty:
Pushing on me for bad reasons.

Who was talking about lynch here? No-one. Why are you nervous with only two votes? I'd say it's still far way to go (now its reduced to 1).

Suggesting I'm scum because I'm nervous because I said "lynch." I said lynch because I was inquiring on the purpoes of the votes: whether they were to put pressure on me, or if they genuinely wanted me lynched.
He points out that wifom is bad. Can he tell me why? Or is he just sheeping sleepy?
63 Pack: Yeah, I'm seeing the same things as this guy. When someone looks in the same places as me, I'd say they're town.
69 Sleepy: Why'd you unvote?
70 Sleepy: Got way more pro-town.






Character Analyses:
Shotty: I still want to know what he thinks he is going to get out of the questions. I think he's scum. A lot of his reasons against why he thinks I'm scum is pretty bad, I was wondering if he's doing it because he thinks I'm scum or he's just still generating discussion. It sounds like he read my meta, thought I was a derpy lynchable towny, and has been trying to come up with reasons to lynch me. Some of the bad reasons include (which I will explain on request why I think they are bad): Buddying with him,
AcRv: Towny for defending easy meat. Discussion on Policy lynches looks reads like genuine concern.
Sleepy: Nullish, Interaction with Shotty genuine, because I think shotty is maf, sleepy is probably town. Sleepy is most defintely not maf buddies with shotty though. Otherwise, I wouldn't really characterize his play as "pro-town"
Pack: Towny for a variety of reasons. He voted me when he should have. His essay thingy is very likely genuine (whether he's scum or not, I'm pretty certain he believes this) and is protown. His 33 is good.
Vincent: scummy, for a reason already mentioned, namely pushing on someone when the reasoning behind it didn't make sense. Also, acted kinda nervous from shotty's claim.
Andrew: towny, I think. Gut, I remember being a newbie like him not too long ago. Not too much though, we'll see.

Rough Scumdar (From most towny to most scummy. If you're within one space from someone else, consider yourselves functionally at the same level of FOS)
0..........70
Shotty--Shotty--
Vincent-Vincent-
Andrew-Andrew-
Sleepy--AcRv---
AcRv---Sleepy--
Pack---Pack---

Seems like people aren't saying much. Maybe this will help. Mind, some of that stuff is outdated. (most of it was pre-post 70)

I don't know why I've fallen into the rhythm of asking questions, but I have.

Sleepykrew: sounds like you wrote up notes before and decided to post them now. Why now? Why did you unvote?
Also, you've never answered my "what did I do that was newbie" question.
Whats the difference with "trying to hard to appear town" and "too townie?"

Vincent: Why do you like gunny leading?

Packback: Why gunny? Cause I suggested it or were you going to do it earlier?

Oh, and Gunny still needs to answer my question about WIFOM, before I give you my whole shpeel on that.

[Metabot]

And Vincent, not trolling. I'm incredibly derpy. Although in my defense, the one where I didn't know I was maf was my first forum mafia game, and that game where I forgot my cop foses, it was because I was too concentrated on scumhunting.

[AcRv]

AcRv is becoming obvtown.

While I'm flattered that you don't want to see me dead anytime soon, can you give a reason? I mean really, just saying "Player x is town" without reasoning is like saying "Player y is scum" without any reasoning. Nobody knows what you're on about. If you truly thought I were town you'd point out why, so then your town read won't be as likely to get mislynched. At least I would've thought so...

drmyshotgun, what alignment were you in Newbie 1211? It occured to me that Zajnet didn't tell us everyone's alignment after the crash. At least if he did, I didn't get it. And before someone asks, it is game related.

[Packbat]

Packback: Why gunny? Cause I suggested it or were you going to do it earlier?

Context, please?

[drmyshotgun]

In post 9, I felt the need to get the game going by actually making people answer the questions.
In post 26, I sensed something else in Vincent and thought that his words can be interpreted as nervousness.

[drmyshotgun]

Why is WIFOM bad? Cause it deliberately confuses people and makes them think both ways thus diverting their concentration on two possibilities instead of possibly one from their own idea.

[drmyshotgun]

I don't think Vincent likes me leading.

[drmyshotgun]

Lol, being nice to people is scummy now? In my experience, being offensive is worse; its disruptive. Scum can reduce the fake-scumhunting they do by OMGUS tunneling someone else in a mudslinging contest.

At shotty: I don't see myself being defensive, much less than "nervous." I'll tell you why I was inquiring on the votes on me all in due time. (feel free to ask me about it like ~ two pages if I forget). My meta/playstyle/activity kinda makes me easy target for people to throw mud at, but this early in the game, I don't really care. We can analyze mud. Especially because you're talking more about "actions" not "motivations" which is where the real money is made.

I'm not telling you to go around swearing at me. I don't want to see assaults on each other, but what I want "at this early in the game", is to approach everybody with a suspicion. Who knows? You being nice to someone can develop into directions where you just simply can't think possibilities for that someone.
Well the game is developing into certain directions (rather slowly) but I still think everyone is a suspect. Sure there are certain ways I look at people and interpret what their words mean, but I am still quite open. Not for long though. I'm beginning to think that you may be one of the two scums we need to lynch to win.

Shotty, why/how did you decide to start off with RQS?
Shotty, how has it helped so far in getting your reads on people? BE SPECIFIC.
Shotty, why does it bother you on the fact that I "bothered to acknowledge the possible outcome of [my] choice"?

1. I just thought I'd make a series of random apparently useless questions to get people comfortable. In comfortable situations our true natures can just slip out somehow.
2. Well it got people to start talking didn't it? One person called it useless and that made some conversations. I admit that I can't read people from the questions (they're not psychic questions or whatever. Just purely from my head) but it is better than nothing.
3. You suggest a WIFOM. On your own character. Its like saying "Oh, I might do this, which might look scummy, but don't mind that. I'm like that when I'm Town."

Why did I vote Meta? I wanted to see his reaction with two votes on him. Packbat's previous vote on him was useful cuz I kinda took advantage of that to apply some force. Two votes in a game this small does apply pressure.
I think he reacted scummily from my pressure.

Questions to both of you: (answer this within the next two pages, at least)
Was your vote RVS (with a weak reason behind it) to generate discussion, or are you actually supporting me getting lynched today?

He gets curious to know whether our vote was serious or not and whether we are still doing Random votes.
To that, I replied like this:

I don't think at this stage the votes should be considered serious.
Your reaction is a bit off but I can understand. Takes only four votes to get lynched.
If I HAVE to put it in some way or the other, I'm gonna say that the vote was RVS to generate discussion.

It was a bit random cuz I half-experimented to see his reaction. Before his scumminess turned into something more tangible, I thought the reaction to find out how serious my vote was was of acceptable level of reaction.

Shotty and Vincent and Pack, could you give me a couple of lines about what you think about each other.

Vincent: He doesn't seem to be taking sides right now and perhaps the only person Metabot didn't really engage with yet. The distancing could mean that they are partners.
Packbat: Shoots up occassionally but didn't really catch my eyes yet. Perhaps its because his posts are all rather short and just comments on others' activities.

Why did you feel the need to tell us that you're town?
Because what I do is town motivated, and I believe that it should be seen that way. I like being town, and seen as town. It means I can work more freely to scumhunt without having to defend against stuff as much. I've heard this in my last game too, that I "try too hard."

What about the consequences? Don't you think if we are to confirm you as Town just because you justify everything you might do in the future, then everybody starts posting why they might do or say such things in the future to clear THEIR names?? I also think doing such thing (Trying hard to appear Town) is a form of WIFOM.

I believe that destructive argument is scummy because it is inherently anti-town.

I think scums can use calming arguments down as a cover to make themselves appear as the "most rational person in the game therefore Town".

Hmm..Did Vincent unvote just as Packbat said "He seems opportunistic in voting for andrew"?
Btw, what's "Tangents"?

drmyshotgun, what alignment were you in Newbie 1211? It occured to me that Zajnet didn't tell us everyone's alignment after the crash. At least if he did, I didn't get it. And before someone asks, it is game related.

Is this not a still on-going game? There were two games which were brought into play again, and I wonder if ours will be available.
If you really want to know ask me again. Perhaps its not best to discuss unfinished games.

[Metabot]

Packbat: "I am planning to reread the thread with a particular focus on drmyshotgun soon." -Why gunny?

that sounds like a plot discussed before hand

I think it looks genuine.

Spoiler: Wifom Discussion

What I think is this: WIFOM is the situation in which someone double/triple/etc. guesses himself/herself in attempt to account for the fact that the other player is accounting for him. The players know that the other player is thinking of what they are thinking, which produces an effect that diminishes the "natural" advantage/disadvantage of a certain act. For instance, in the classic "poisoned wine" example, offering one of the glasses is an act that soon could be considered random; in fact, from what my brother tells me, the optimum play (assuming the other is also playing optimally) is to randomly choose one of the two glasses.

This has pertinence to MS because it can be used somewhat as a tool. I think most people think its bad because of its recursive nature, which causes it to be somewhat distracting. However, it can also be used to diminsh the scummyness of anti-town actions. E.g. "I know this is scummy, but I'm going to [insert anti-town action here]. Come on, scum can't have possibly said that, it would be too obvious!

Now, what I sometimes do is preclude a statement with a "yeah, I know this is scummy" just to let people know that I'm not doing something scummy because I accidentally did it, or was hoping no one would notice. That should let some credibility in my part, depending on the context. However, I will not be allowing this wifomy acknowledgment as an excuse for anti-town behavior. I will allow it for things like POV "scumslips" or "tells." (Oh btw, when I said the serial killer stuff because it was RVS and it was a way to incite discussion by doing something scummy, but not anti-town) Also, what I dislike, is that when I do blatantly townsided things, people waft it away and say "ah, but he is just scum trying to look towny!" which, when you think about it, doesn't make sense. If we extend this reasoning to everything it applies to, then scum would be playing indistinguishably from town, and not actually following their win condition.

Oh, and this also means I don't believe in the "too townie" argument. Especially in this setup, when you don't even need to act scummy as doc to avoid nked.

I don't really like Drmy's method of scumhunting, it seems to more be action-oriented gut feels than anything that requires analyses. Not saying gut can't be effective, its just easily Bs-able.

Why is WIFOM bad? Cause it deliberately confuses people and makes them think both ways thus diverting their concentration on two possibilities instead of possibly one from their own idea.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not convinced he really understands why wifom is annoying. Maybe he's just having trouble getting his thoughts across or something, but the reason why I asked, was because:

As Sleepy pointed out, a WIFOM this early in the game doesn't look very good for me.

Would be scum-sided sheeping if he didn't actually know why what I did was scummy.

1. I just thought I'd make a series of random apparently useless questions to get people comfortable. In comfortable situations our true natures can just slip out somehow.2. Well it got people to start talking didn't it? One person called it useless and that made some conversations. I admit that I can't read people from the questions (they're not psychic questions or whatever. Just purely from my head) but it is better than nothing.3. You suggest a WIFOM. On your own character. Its like saying "Oh, I might do this, which might look scummy, but don't mind that. I'm like that when I'm Town."

1.) But why this game? I was kind of expecting a "I saw someone else do it in this game I was reading and so I decided to try it." I mean, did you just start doing this randomly, or was it for some other reason?
2.) Seemingly contradicing this:

Believe it or not, I can detect scums and towns with these questions.

3.) How is that scummy?

Vincent is getting into IIoA zone. Vincent, can you explain why Pack and AcRv are town? And you still need to tell me what you think of Gunny.

Anyway, I think I'm cool with my scumread of Gunny, as of now, at least. If anybody has a townread on him, and would like to convince me that they are correct in that, go for it.

[Metabot]

Oh, and I forgot to mention...

Junpei: I like your random tidbits of info in your votecounts. Keep doing it

[andrew94]

@meta im not newbie wtf
also, why do you think its genuine
you didnt read, i already explained the serial killer thing (back to neutral).

also i stopped called shotgun shotty, can u guys stop calling him gunny, it confuses me

[Metabot]

Oh, uh sorry, xP

I think its genuine largely because, when I imagine the situation in my head, it doesn't seem very likely. I've got a townread on both, and more likely its just a difference in meta thats causing them to interact like that.

And yeah, I get the serial killer thingy, those were just some notes that were outdated.

[Packbat]

Packbat: "I am planning to reread the thread with a particular focus on drmyshotgun soon." -Why gunny?

Oh, right. Because of the timing of his Metabot vote, primarily - I was wondering if it represented opportunism on his part.

[AcRv]

Btw, what's "Tangents"?

A tangent is a line that intersects with a point on the outside of a circle or somthing like that. But in this case it's referring to when a conversation gets sidetracked from the topic at hand. Like talking about what we should do on the weekend in a mafia thread, that sort of thing.

drmyshotgun, what alignment were you in Newbie 1211? It occured to me that Zajnet didn't tell us everyone's alignment after the crash. At least if he did, I didn't get it. And before someone asks, it is game related.

Is this not a still on-going game? There were two games which were brought into play again, and I wonder if ours will be available.
If you really want to know ask me again. Perhaps its not best to discuss unfinished games.

Well, I don't think it does count as ongoing simply because it doesn't actually exist anymore. I looked for it pretty soon after the crash and only two newbie games remained in progress. And they're starting the counter from 1221. We were in 1211, so I think it counts as either complete or non-existant. If the mod says you can't, then don't answer, but I can't see why a not ongoing game would count as ongoing.

@ mod: Do games lost in the Rollback count as complete for the purpose of talking about them?

[Vincent2128]

AcRv is becoming obvtown.

While I'm flattered that you don't want to see me dead anytime soon, can you give a reason? I mean really, just saying "Player x is town" without reasoning is like saying "Player y is scum" without any reasoning. Nobody knows what you're on about. If you truly thought I were town you'd point out why, so then your town read won't be as likely to get mislynched. At least I would've thought so...

Reaction test.
Scum would probably feel appeased about town giving them a townread and leave it at that. The fact that you went and criticized the lack of reasoning makes you (actually) town to me now.

Vincent is getting into IIoA zone. Vincent, can you explain why Pack and AcRv are town? And you still need to tell me what you think of Gunny.

What IIoA?
Also

Shotty and Vincent and Pack, could you give me a couple of lines about what you think about each other.

Gunny: I like his lead he's pushing on Meta, but otherwise I have yet to see anything come from his questions that he can 'determine alignments' from. I also get a feeling that the conflict with Sleep is town v town...
Pack: His reasoning's good, however there's not too much to talk about from him as of yet.

I haven't got Pack as a townread, while Gunny is only a (gut) minor townread.

[AcRv]

... Sleepy's gone Sleepy on us... and yet had time to post a random comment in the queue. Can someone tell me if that's normal for him, or is he just pissed at us for apparently "not knowing what's going on"? Because he was in the Open Queue on Thursday. His last post here was on Tuesday. There's been at least one thing asked to him on Wednesday. So why didn't he answer it here? Or at least tell us he was going to be away?

VOTE: SleepyKrew

First you try to lynch someone for being useless in a game where it won't do anything except give scum a free kill. Your next posts try to stop conversation and just say "Drmyshotgun is useless".
Later, you try to put yourself in a postition over us by saying you're more experienced than us. You then tell some of us to play newbie games. You may have been hoping that we'd think that what you were doing was right. Basically trying to get three sheep. But it failed when you realised that we all had experience after all. Reason I can see you trying that is as scum, is that when I played face to face games I'd let it known I play elsewhere so town will follow my lead. Only got the quieter ones, but it was useful somewhat as scum. Can't do it anymore because everyone I play with face-to-face now has experience, but the point is I can see you trying.
And now... you're lurking. Didn't even post here to say you were going to be away. And I love how you don't say anything about Vincent not knowing what's going on when he had done just as much as me at the time of the post. So if you're scum I'dn't be surprised if Vincent2128 was with you.

Of course if you just have a really huge ego than my second point is null. But either way, come over here and post something. Please?

[SleepyKrew]

Well, I would post something along the lines of "lynch me if I don't contribute by Sunday", but that won't actually do anything with this mechanic :/

[Packbat]

Why not?

[AcRv]

Why not?

Because if he's town we'll just get a no lynch, and so scum will probably shoot someone else rather than a town who isn't helping. I thought we established that here.

Well, I would post something along the lines of "lynch me if I don't contribute by Sunday", but that won't actually do anything with this mechanic :/

SleepyKrew, is there a reason that you haven't been posting a lot? If so then tell us why, and we won't (well I won't, at least) push you on that point. But the fact you didn't even try to defend yourself with that post seems odd... as though trying to make it look like my post against you was only questioning your lurking and not anything else. And you're still ignoring quite a lot...
Here Metabot asks at least one question in his spoilered response, which SleepyKrew ignores.
Here Metabot asks one of the same questions as well as a new one, still not answered.
And then you don't try to defend yourself from the case I put against you. My vote stands.

[andrew94]

was away, sleeping now, will post 2mororw

[drmyshotgun]

Okay. Our mod from 1211 said the game's just not going to come back.
Zajnet told me who the scums were. Lol
@AcRv: I was Townie in that game. Scums were Praetyre and PieceofPecanPie. Thesp had jailkept u on Night 1 and u got protected from their kill. They checked Thesp's role and found out he was Jailkeeper for the Town. Thus Thesp pushed ur lynch and he was nightkilled on Night 2.
Absolutely Nobody had suspected Praetyre. Lol. I was going to lynch either Fungrus or Christmas. Maybe the game not ending was a good thing.

[drmyshotgun]

^ Does this help in any way?

[AcRv]

... So I was right about Shirley? I can't help but laugh. And I suspected Praetyre after I was dead because I flipped VT and a jailkeeper died, and he didn't question the guy who made the slip. I can't help but lol at that. And yes, I wanted to know if what your doing now was you normally did as town, because you're playing the same as you did last game. So you're now coming off as town.