Mini 1320--Redwall Mafia: Spirit Lore (The Sun Has Set)

[Korlash]

I really should deal with my closer deadline game but I really... really don't want to delve into cached pages... so I'll stay here, where it is fun and fresh and safe and no one wants to hurt me... >.> *squinty eyes*

So the issue here seems to be that V2V said that (I'm assuming he meant "he wouldN'T fucking say), or rather implied that, Newman was worried about a quicklynch, when in his initial post he didn't say anything about a quicklynch being the issue (rather the issue is that people shouldn't be lynched for no reason).

I think we've already cleared up how the second point could come from town.

You've confused me... A lot... with this... Did you have a point with the first part and did you mean town Newman or town V2V with the second?

This bit by V2V seems odd, but I think it is an error in definition. If we look back at post 73 by V2V, the way he describes a quicklynch seems to imply he sees it as 1 or 2 scum insta-voting some person X in a blatant manner to get the lynch through.

If we adapt this definition, then V2V's reasoning seems sound.

And wrong. The majority of quicklynches that end like that are due to overactive town who are either dumb, bored, or a combination of the two. Hell, anyone who is as experienced on this site as people think everyone else is should know that. V2V has put his own spin on such a quicklynch with his own ideals and is holding Newman naccountable for not agreeing with them. i.e. I think one way, anyone who doesn't is scum. If V2V would be elated at a quicklynch it doesn't mean EVERYONE WHO IS TOWN should think the same way, and instead of finding real scum reasoning behind Newman's actions, he simply falls in line with this thinking and calls it a case.

The only thing to accuse V2V of is that he misrepresented Newman, as newman never said anything about a quicklynch; however I see the similarities between what Newman said and what V2V interpreted, so I will just take note of this and move on.

I disagree but okay...

He did show why he thought it would come from scum though, in post 73. No where does the "fact newman hasn't actually said the word quicklynch" is a reason to lynch him. Explain how Newman is an easy target who is incapable of defending attacks (rather, how V2V would have known that at post 73).

Giving reasons it 'might' come from scum while ignoring all reasons it could come from town without giving any real evidence to suggest the scum hypothesises hold weight does not constitute town play. I could list out multiple reasons V2V might be scum, but unless I back it up with evidence it means shit, right? Same goes for his case on Newman. No evidence, no case. Continual pushing that no case for eight pages = scum.

1) He wouldn't know it in post 73... My assessment of his case deals with the ENTIRE push on Newman, not simply the first post. Don't try to discredit my case with such a lousy assertion that you should know is a 'loaded question.'
2) Newman seems unable to actually understand the attacks on him or unwilling to actually answer it properly. He feels he has adequately answered the questions posed at him when in reality he missed the actual intent of those questions. In addition, he pulled the standard 'epic mafia' defense which around here seems easy to make a federal case out of. To vote Newman throughout this game required nearly no reasoning or backing and would have been accepted as normal by almost everyone. That is the definition of easy target and almost always has a scum or two circling it like vultures. (other variants of this would be the policy lynches, people who get bandwagoned just for who they are. Newbies in non-newbie games. People who make a fast l-1 vote because they are aggressive or new. etc, etc, etc... Pretty much anything that is socially accepted as 'suspicious play' without any real evidence of scum intent.)

And before you ask, there is a difference between pushing suspicious play in order to try and uncover the scum intent, and pushing it while just assuming it exists. V2V has done the latter, which is the one scum would do.

pedit: 1. Newmans' joindate says he has been here for a year. That is enough time to know site meta, even I know site meta.

So, I joined over three years ago, but have only been playing for half that amount of time. Join date and experience level are not the same. If V2V's problem was that he felt Newman was lying and KNEW things, he should have shown some interest in finding out if he did or didn't really know something. Instead he just told people what Newman did and didn't know and pushed a scum case from there. Town would have some interest in finding the truth, not simply pushing a case as far and fast as possible.

OPINIONS ON PEREGRINEV PLEASE KORLASH LIKE YOU SAID

But I don't wanna... wait, yes I do... It's that or cache diving... *shudder* I'll have that up in a second...

[Korlash]

lol... 8 posts in and Peregrine already seems smarter than me...

I won't go for the obvious, but Newman can only look protown for defusing the BV wagon if BV flips town. Since we don't really know that (except you seem to), how does Newman gain any protown points for "defusing" the wagon?

QTF. Was this answered by rat? lol, no... rat's response is to ignore it and start voting Peregrine... lolololololololol

Peargrin (so much easier to spell this way) goes on to question V2V and the validity of the entire case on Newman... I don't get his problems with Jun, seems to just be pushing his rvs vote. I dislike that he abandons the Rat vote to revote Jun... His 183 outlines it, but I dislike reasons for a vote coming after the fact.

His 183 is good and I agree with it, and while I still don't like howw long it took him to explain it I can understand his vote on Jun.

So, long story short, I like him because he is smart and while he isn't as content filled as I like to see my friends, I'm fine bowing at his feet and worshiping him as a god among men! Exaggerated as that is, I'm throwing him in the town category. His feelings on Newman and scum reads more or less match mine so as far as my perspective goes, he's totally town. The case on him was started by Rat in what I feel is an attempt to quell the stuff he was posting.

More reason to vote Rat! Hmm... Might have to do some time... But so hard to pick between him and V2V... both such obvious scum...

[Korlash]

EBWOP:

His 183 is good and I agree with it

Should read "His 185 is good and I agree with it"... This is why i don't deal in ISOs, too much page switching and number crunching.

[Junpei]

Korlash: You accuse V2V of only considering the scum intent side of things (not considering how Newman could act the way he did as town) but you are doing the same thing. I've found an explanation for why town-V2V would do the things he has done for the most part. Just because he may have been wrong in his assertions at some point on a logical level doesn't mean they weren't genuine assertions.

Re:Quote1: The first part is outlining the issue I think you have with that post, and the second part is for completeness, as we have already discussed the other part of the post, but town-2V2 is what I was referring to.

Post 73 is important though if you're making the claim that he picked NEWMAN to attack BECAUSE he was an easy target. If being an easy target was the reason he's attacking Newman (or a reason at least) then he must have known he was an easy target when he started attacking. If we only knew Newman was an easy target after the attacks began, then the point is nullified, as 2V2 couldn't attack Newman for having a trait he didn't know he had.

I agree that 2V2's attacks on Newman are bad. They have a poor logical base, and don't take several important details into account; but they are arguments which could easily come from town. There are a lot of scumtells in the game of mafia, this isn't one of them.

Also re:Joindate: I meant that it is possible that pappums saw the joindate and assumed that Newman was experienced. I understand that you could say that everything could have a town motive if it's convoluted enough; and I would say yes that's right. However it's a matter of finding town intent and scum intent in every action, and determining then given all relevant actions which is more likely. I think that it is just as likely that pappums is town who saw the joindate and assumed Newman was experienced as it is that Pappums is scum who decided the joindate would be an easy vantage point to attack newman from. I haven't seen newman defend himself with claims of newbiness, only claims of hate of MS meta (which reinforce the claim that he knows of MS meta).

Christ I wrote a lot.... Korlash this conversation is going to long to nowhere. If this doesn't convince you then I will concede that you can FoS 2V2, I just won't follow you on that wagon.

As for PeregrineV...

He says that he had no reason to vote me all this time other than gut until after I asked him. Yes, he had no reason to vote me other than gut until AFTER I asked him for reasoning. He ditched his reasoning on Rat to pursue me based on nothing but some gut. PeregrineV is not from what I remember a gut-centered player. I don't know where you got the "peregrineV is smart" hook, but can you drop the fact that his reads align with yours (which isn't a towntell anyway)? I do agree that pappums rat should answer his question though.

[Korlash]

Korlash: You accuse V2V of only considering the scum intent side of things (not considering how Newman could act the way he did as town) but you are doing the same thing. I've found an explanation for why town-V2V would do the things he has done for the most part. Just because he may have been wrong in his assertions at some point on a logical level doesn't mean they weren't genuine assertions.

How so? There is also the subtle difference between me and him in that all my reasoning are based on past posts. I cannot influence that discussion, nor join those events, thus I cannot pose the same questions to V2V that he had the opportunity to pose to Newman.

What was your explanation for him as town again?

Post 73 is important though if you're making the claim that he picked NEWMAN to attack BECAUSE he was an easy target. If being an easy target was the reason he's attacking Newman (or a reason at least) then he must have known he was an easy target when he started attacking. If we only knew Newman was an easy target after the attacks began, then the point is nullified, as 2V2 couldn't attack Newman for having a trait he didn't know he had.

Newman's reaction towards the wagon gave V2V an easy target to vote. His reaction toward the votes he received made him an easy target to push for a lynch. It's two separate issues, and I'm only concerned about the push to lynch. He was completely valid for voting Newman, but as he progressed his 'case' became crap. Due entirely to the fact it never actually grew. His case for these last eight pages has been the exact reason he voted Newman, and that's a sign of a crap case.

I agree that 2V2's attacks on Newman are bad. They have a poor logical base, and don't take several important details into account; but they are arguments which could easily come from town. There are a lot of scumtells in the game of mafia, this isn't one of them.

I wouldn't call it a scum tell, but it is scummy. I need you to explain to me again how and why they could come from town. (my mind hurts from other games and I honestly can't remember XD)

Christ I wrote a lot.... Korlash this conversation is going to long to nowhere. If this doesn't convince you then I will concede that you can FoS 2V2, I just won't follow you on that wagon.

I know. We'll simplify it. Just tell me why V2V's actions seem to come from town. That's all I need from you. (I honestly wasn't trying to be an ass, I just posed the question each time so in an attempt to reduce the amount you have to respond to...)

He says that he had no reason to vote me all this time other than gut until after I asked him. Yes, he had no reason to vote me other than gut until AFTER I asked him for reasoning. He ditched his reasoning on Rat to pursue me based on nothing but some gut. PeregrineV is not from what I remember a gut-centered player. I don't know where you got the "peregrineV is smart" hook, but can you drop the fact that his reads align with yours (which isn't a towntell anyway)? I do agree that pappums rat should answer his question though.

I know, I don't like the way he went about explaining his vote on you either, but the reasons given seem valid enough at the very least. His ditching Rat made me cry, but like I said, his reasons for voting you make enough sense. He is smart for outing Rat (and from that V2V), and his reads do match mine (Rat and V2V) and while I don't see you as scum like he does, I did have suspicions of you throughout my reread, so close enough. it's not a town tell, but it certainly makes it harder for me to objectify my own read of him, wouldn't you say? If I can't disagree with him, it's hard for me to see him as scum.

And yes... Rat... answer your question sir!

[Junpei]

Okay.. V2V from the top (just realized I spelled it 2v2 in the other post... now ISOing myself will be that much more bothersome!).. remember that in this post I will outline a scenario using only LIKELY truths which draws V2V as town.

First point is valid (even though it ignores possible town POV which is very common on this site I've found) obviously, second point is also valid if you assume quicklynch means that two people insta-vote X with the intent to lynch X (which seems very not pro-town)

V2V doesn't recognize that Newmans' issue is with the reasons behind the wagon rather than the possibility of a quicklynch, which is consistent with his earlier post at least

This is spiraling; V2V thinks that he has Newman trapped in a faked action, but really everything that V2V asserts here is countered by Newmans' philosophy of not even REASON behind the lynch.

As you can see in the quote from Newman in this post, Newman is failing to clarify with V2V his reasoning, and V2V hasn't noticed the first hint still

First makes sense if we assume the earlier detailed definition of quicklynch; second makes sense if we assume that Newmans' joindate means experience, although honestly I just looked at his topics list, and he has played a pretty good number of games..

[pappums rat]

lol... 8 posts in and Peregrine already seems smarter than me...

I won't go for the obvious, but Newman can only look protown for defusing the BV wagon if BV flips town. Since we don't really know that (except you seem to), how does Newman gain any protown points for "defusing" the wagon?

QTF. Was this answered by rat? lol, no... rat's response is to ignore it and start voting Peregrine... lolololololololol

I already answered that here. (It's the first line under his quote, and I am responding to his link.)

I think Korlash is mainly suspicious of vijay and myself based on ideological grounds. He (as well as PV, RBT, and others) have waved around words like "discrimination" to refer to our opinions of Newman, which is a position that belongs in MD rather than a game. There is a way that mafia is played here, and judging by Newman's join date I thought he would know the meta here. (No I didnt look any farther into it than that.) Korlash has taken offense to this and has formed his opinions entirely around whether or not a player who has been on-site for one year should or should not know site meta and has ignored the other side of the argument. He even let this position interfere with his opinion of my case on PV which he didnt even read before saying that he disagreed with it. He has taken what he views as an indefensible case (the one on Newman) and has turned the same kind of logic I was using against me while stating that that kind of logic is scum-based. This is an emotional argument he has made based on ideological positions.

[Korlash]

I already answered that here. (It's the first line under his quote, and I am responding to his link.)

Ah, I see. sorry, I didn't take the time to look that far ahead.

There's that word again... 'could'... Still, I get what you mean. Scum have a motive to defend others, while town technically do not.

What part of Newman's actions make you think it was about the defense, and not the defense simply being the byproduct? As in, why can't Newman actually believe what he said and simply have defended BV through those means?

I think Korlash is mainly suspicious of vijay and myself based on ideological grounds. He (as well as PV, RBT, and others) have waved around words like "discrimination" to refer to our opinions of Newman, which is a position that belongs in MD rather than a game. There is a way that mafia is played here, and judging by Newman's join date I thought he would know the meta here. (No I didnt look any farther into it than that.) Korlash has taken offense to this and has formed his opinions entirely around whether or not a player who has been on-site for one year should or should not know site meta and has ignored the other side of the argument. He even let this position interfere with his opinion of my case on PV which he didnt even read before saying that he disagreed with it. He has taken what he views as an indefensible case (the one on Newman) and has turned the same kind of logic I was using against me while stating that that kind of logic is scum-based. This is an emotional argument he has made based on ideological positions.

Hmm, so many misrepresentations here I'm not sure which to start with... Well I guess the one's I'm most sure of then.

1) Never said I disagreed with your Peargrin case before I read it, this is the second time you've falsely accused me of this so either prove it or shut up.

2) When have I actually accused anyone of being discriminatory towards anyone, and when have I ever used that to discredit or demean anyone's case?

3) Why have you boiled by entire opinion of you and V2V down to Newman's join date? It's a factor sure, but hardly something I built my entire case around. And what side of the argument have I ignored?

4) explain how my logic against you is anyway similar to what you've thrown at Newman. Seems a rather hard accusation to make without backing it up, so I'll give you a chance.

And this is a flailing response made by desperate scum. Lots of accusations with no body of proof, evidence backing it up, or reason to go along with it.

Unvote:, Vote: pappums rat

Until you add some better content to back up these false claims of yours I think I'll stick my vote here. Besides, I think you'll ignore me less than V2V will. =P

[Korlash]

I'm tip toeing around the V2V issue with you right now Jun, I'd rather have this argument with him. I will say this though,

First makes sense if we assume the earlier detailed definition of quicklynch; second makes sense if we assume that Newmans' joindate means experience, although honestly I just looked at his topics list, and he has played a pretty good number of games..

You're doing a lot of assuming here mate. If V2V was town we shouldn't have to assume so many things about him. This part of your argument is countered by me simply saying "if we assume the opposite, he is scum"...

The biggest reason I'm after V2V is the fact his entire case was 'assumed' in a way. Don't do the same thing in order to defend him.

[Junpei]

You're doing a lot of assuming here mate. If V2V was town we shouldn't have to assume so many things about him. This part of your argument is countered by me simply saying "if we assume the opposite, he is scum"...

Jeez man, you just proved my point! It's all about assumptions, you say yourself that you counter it by assuming something else! It's all about looking at all reliable assumptions and deciding which in context is the most likely. I think that the negations of what I wrote are far less likely than what I think V2V was thinking. Remember that when I say "if we assume.." I really mean "I think that town-V2V easily would have assumed...".

Anyway, I've said all I can say on the manner, so I'll leave it at that.

[Junpei]

What about Ghostlin, he said the exact same thing. Do you only see scum intent there as well?

Why'd you forget about this point Korlash? It's the best thing in that spoiler. V2V treated two people completely differently. I am not sure why no one else pushed on this before.

[Riceballtail]

Back, reading up soon.

[vijay2vasandani]

Hey Korlash. Sorry if you think I'm ignoring your posts and case against me. It's just that when I join these games, I can normally keep up with the post lengths and count. Then somebody like you or Zorblag replaces in and I'm just tempted to go "tl;dr fuck it". Anyway, could you present your case on me in a concise manner, preferably one or two sentence dot points? that would be amazing. cheers

[quadz08]

First thing is that Newman is null, as of now. I'm having to read before I leave for work, so I didn't get to go super in-depth, which I'm really sorry about. I totally spaced on doing this last night.
Second thing is that the Newman wagon was pure awfulness. Because bv jumped on such a bad wagon, and I know that he is better than that:

VOTE: Korlash

Somebody smack me if I don't give more content than this within 15 hours.

[DarthYoshi]

Prodding hiplop.

HellloooNewman has not responded to his prod. Initiating search for a replacement.

Fresh vote count coming later today when I have time. Promise.

[HellloooNewman]

Officially Request Replacement

Apologies all, especially Yoshi. My time turned out to be less free than I expected.

[hiplop]

AH im here. gimme a minute

[Korlash]

Why'd you forget about this point Korlash? It's the best thing in that spoiler. V2V treated two people completely differently. I am not sure why no one else pushed on this before.

I didn't forget about anything, just waiting for V2V to get here.

Hey Korlash. Sorry if you think I'm ignoring your posts and case against me. It's just that when I join these games, I can normally keep up with the post lengths and count. Then somebody like you or Zorblag replaces in and I'm just tempted to go "tl;dr fuck it". Anyway, could you present your case on me in a concise manner, preferably one or two sentence dot points? that would be amazing. cheers

A likely story sir! but... a somewhat reasonable request, I'll see what I can do about it.

VOTE: Korlash

Somebody smack me if I don't give more content than this within 15 hours.

WHOOOHOOO! This is *sniff* my favorite moment in a game... Somebody who thinks they can actually keep up with me. ;_; happy days are here at last!

Jeez man, you just proved my point! It's all about assumptions, you say yourself that you counter it by assuming something else! It's all about looking at all reliable assumptions and deciding which in context is the most likely. I think that the negations of what I wrote are far less likely than what I think V2V was thinking. Remember that when I say "if we assume.." I really mean "I think that town-V2V easily would have assumed...".

And that's my point, I don't want assumptions from either of us. I want a pure simply theory with some hard evidence to suggest why Town V2V would push a case on Newman for so long without ever A) Expanding it or adding to it and B) Actually showing hard evidence that Newman is scum.

He has pushed the exact same 'assumption' this entire game and treated it like some sort of real scum push.

Be back later with said dot matrix case or whatever...

[Junpei]

korlash no.

you are, for instance, assuming that i am playing this game to some serious degree and will answer you
you are assuming that scum commit scumtells
you are assuming that quad was serious in that post, or unserious even

assumptions are an inherent part of any investigation or thought, unfounded assumptions (unlike the ones V2V made) can be troublesome, but that's a different breed and I want us to have our terminology aligned.

[Korlash]

you are, for instance, assuming that i am playing this game to some serious degree and will answer you
you are assuming that scum commit scumtells
you are assuming that quad was serious in that post, or unserious even

No I'm not. This is a game, I know you are a player, nothing more nothing less. I barely use the word 'scumtells' so assume nothing about this, I KNOW that players will commit suspicious acts and that regardless of other factors a scum will HAVE to play to their win condition in order for me to lose, so at some point a scum WILL commit a suspcious act. And three, I don't get voted enough. I assume nothing about his vote other than it should make the game more fun for me.

... You're move sir... >.> *puts on sunglasses*

[Korlash]

On a serious note, I'm not against assumptions. It is a part of the game. I am however, against the entirety of a discussion being assumptions. Such as, if you assume fact A which makes player B scum, you must have some evidence to support that assumption. V2V's assumption (or was it Rat's? Fuck, I can't distinguish between them anymore) that Newman was defending BV is a valid start, but he never once showed evidence to support this assumption. Never. Thus, the assumption is unfounded and falty.

I can go on, The assumption that Newman knows site meta and is lying is valid and partially supported by his joindate, BUT did anyone ever try to check said validity? Did anyone ask Newman how many games he had played? Did anyone ask him to show an example where he saw a quicklynch go wrong? Did anyone show him an example where a quicklynch went right and ask if that changed his opinion? No, they assumed something, called him scum for it, and sat on their asses doing nothing about it.

Town assume things, and use that to help find as near to the truth as they can, scum assume things and try to play those assumptions off as fact.

[pappums rat]

What part of Newman's actions make you think it was about the defense, and not the defense simply being the byproduct? As in, why can't Newman actually believe what he said and simply have defended BV through those means?

I think Korlash is mainly suspicious of vijay and myself based on ideological grounds. He (as well as PV, RBT, and others) have waved around words like "discrimination" to refer to our opinions of Newman, which is a position that belongs in MD rather than a game. There is a way that mafia is played here, and judging by Newman's join date I thought he would know the meta here. (No I didnt look any farther into it than that.) Korlash has taken offense to this and has formed his opinions entirely around whether or not a player who has been on-site for one year should or should not know site meta and has ignored the other side of the argument. He even let this position interfere with his opinion of my case on PV which he didnt even read before saying that he disagreed with it. He has taken what he views as an indefensible case (the one on Newman) and has turned the same kind of logic I was using against me while stating that that kind of logic is scum-based. This is an emotional argument he has made based on ideological positions.

Hmm, so many misrepresentations here I'm not sure which to start with... Well I guess the one's I'm most sure of then.

1) Never said I disagreed with your Peargrin case before I read it, this is the second time you've falsely accused me of this so either prove it or shut up.

2) When have I actually accused anyone of being discriminatory towards anyone, and when have I ever used that to discredit or demean anyone's case?

3) Why have you boiled by entire opinion of you and V2V down to Newman's join date? It's a factor sure, but hardly something I built my entire case around. And what side of the argument have I ignored?

4) explain how my logic against you is anyway similar to what you've thrown at Newman. Seems a rather hard accusation to make without backing it up, so I'll give you a chance.

And this is a flailing response made by desperate scum. Lots of accusations with no body of proof, evidence backing it up, or reason to go along with it.

Unvote:, Vote: pappums rat

Until you add some better content to back up these false claims of yours I think I'll stick my vote here. Besides, I think you'll ignore me less than V2V will. =P

It is possible that that was the case with Newman, but the way I have read his defense of bv and his subsequent defense of himself, he is more likely scum in my opinion. He was not able to adequately explain why bv needed his defense and gave no meta supporting himself regarding defending people on large early Day 1 wagons.

1. Yes, that is right you never said you disagreed with it, but you were making assumptions about it before you properly looked into it.
2. Once again, you are right, it was RBT who used the word "discriminating", but your mindset is very similar to this. You are using your opinions of acceptable D1 play to get in the way of looking at my side of this.
3. Because you keep railing about how Newman's join date doesnt necessarily mean he is experienced and have based a large part of your case against me on it. You have ignored the fact that it is reasonable to expect someone who has been here a year to know something about the site. Newman's own responses have shown that he is familiar with MS meta.
4. I am speculating about Newman's way of thinking and you are doing the same about mine. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as it is how mafia is played IIRC. But you are setting a double standard here. And you talk a lot about assumptions, though mafia is a game all about making assumptions about other people.

LOL at "flailing response made by desperate scum". I'm not desperate in the least, before your vote no one was voting me. I was just explaining my opinions of your mindset in this game. And BTW... where is your evidence for your case? Looks to me we both did the same: we both laid out our suspicions based upon our opinions of things that are scumtells without any "proof" that it was actually the case. There is no such thing as "proof" in mafia until you get the flip.

[pappums rat]

On a serious note, I'm not against assumptions. It is a part of the game. I am however, against the entirety of a discussion being assumptions. Such as, if you assume fact A which makes player B scum, you must have some evidence to support that assumption. V2V's assumption (or was it Rat's? Fuck, I can't distinguish between them anymore) that Newman was defending BV is a valid start, but he never once showed evidence to support this assumption. Never. Thus, the assumption is unfounded and falty.

I can go on, The assumption that Newman knows site meta and is lying is valid and partially supported by his joindate, BUT did anyone ever try to check said validity? Did anyone ask Newman how many games he had played? Did anyone ask him to show an example where he saw a quicklynch go wrong? Did anyone show him an example where a quicklynch went right and ask if that changed his opinion? No, they assumed something, called him scum for it, and sat on their asses doing nothing about it.

Town assume things, and use that to help find as near to the truth as they can, scum assume things and try to play those assumptions off as fact.

You do make some good points in this post, but you are

assuming

too much. I didnt look farther into Newman's experience because, quite simply, I did make assumptions about him based solely on his join date. Now the question is, "Is scum more likely to make such assumptions than town?" And when you ask that question, it is no different than me asking the question "should someone with a join date like Newman's know site meta?". Have you looked into my playstyle by any chance?

[Korlash]

It is possible that that was the case with Newman, but the way I have read his defense of bv and his subsequent defense of himself, he is more likely scum in my opinion. He was not able to adequately explain why bv needed his defense and gave no meta supporting himself regarding defending people on large early Day 1 wagons.

Wait, you actually saw him defend BV? Where? showmeshowmeshowme! That, my dear sir, would be evidence to back up your theory. That, good friend, would be a breakthrough! BREAKTHROUGH... These barriers of pain....

1. Yes, that is right you never said you disagreed with it, but you were making assumptions about it before you properly looked into it.

So you admit you lied in an attempt to discredit my character... tsk tsk tsk... We were so close to a breakthrough here!

2. Once again, you are right, it was RBT who used the word "discriminating", but your mindset is very similar to this. You are using your opinions of acceptable D1 play to get in the way of looking at my side of this.

Not really. I discriminate against people all the time, so I rarely have a problem with it. in a game of mafia, it's good to gang up on people for irrelevant details sometimes. BUt my opinion og acceptable D1 play doesn't factor into anything, because I don't have one. Where have I ever mentioned I did? When did I say "proper day one play is this... etc..." and got in the way of anything because of it???? where???

3. Because you keep railing about how Newman's join date doesnt necessarily mean he is experienced and have based a large part of your case against me on it. You have ignored the fact that it is reasonable to expect someone who has been here a year to know something about the site. Newman's own responses have shown that he is familiar with MS meta.

It is reasonable, but it is also reasonable for someone who is town and thinks player A is scum because of a join date to ask the question "How many games have you played?" Or "have you ever seen a quicklynch lose town the game?" or "Hey, look at this quicklynch. It caught three scum. why do you think it's bad play?" I mean you didn't even try. You went "Why do you think this is bad?" no answer... OMG he must be scum because of his joindate/stop actually looking for the truth and run with it!!!! Or, as it's called in Memphis, scum play.

4. I am speculating about Newman's way of thinking and you are doing the same about mine. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as it is how mafia is played IIRC. But you are setting a double standard here. And you talk a lot about assumptions, though mafia is a game all about making assumptions about other people.

Yes, but town back up their assumptions. You have not... You take an assumption, then stop doing anything and just push the lynch. I assume things, throw out questions, take responces, and mold those assumptions based on evidence. Absolutely no double standard.

LOL at "flailing response made by desperate scum". I'm not desperate in the least, before your vote no one was voting me. I was just explaining my opinions of your mindset in this game. And BTW... where is your evidence for your case? Looks to me we both did the same: we both laid out our suspicions based upon our opinions of things that are scumtells without any "proof" that it was actually the case. There is no such thing as "proof" in mafia until you get the flip.

Yeah, but I'm rather convincing when I say things and other people tend to listen. :3

My argument is you lack evidence, thus my evidence is your lack of evidence. It is in the thread, or more specifically not in the thread. You having no evidence would be a 'fact' thus evidence backing up my theory. And proof is just a word, like tell or suspicious act, or banana flavored jelly belly... Sure, you can argue that nothing is proven until the flip, sure, but until the flip happens all evidence can be used as proof of a person's scumminess, which is what's important when you lynch people.

I'm not saying I have proof you are scum, just proof you are scummy and should be lynched. See the difference? =D

[Korlash]

You do make some good points in this post, but you are assuming too much. I didnt look farther into Newman's experience because, quite simply, I did make assumptions about him based solely on his join date. Now the question is, "Is scum more likely to make such assumptions than town?" And when you ask that question, it is no different than me asking the question "should someone with a join date like Newman's know site meta?". Have you looked into my playstyle by any chance?

Yes, scum is more likely to make that sort of assumption. Scum just need pressure put on people and the possible mislynch to occur. Town need the be as accurate as possible and as close to the truth as possible. So scum won't see the need to question their assumptions, just push them. Town will feel the need to question their assumptions in order to help prevent a possible mislynch due to misunderstanding.

Obviously, the player in question should be taken into account. Which is why we're having this discussion. So I can tell what type of player you are and whether my assumption that you are scum pushing this is likely to be accurate. =D