Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Lastsurvivor]

That's not an answer to my question.

Well, I figured I already answered it anyway. But to elaborate, I think he just thought that Alice was the sure lynch target and hopped on, thinking that his previous reads would be forgotten. I'd think a townie would elaborate why there was such a sudden jump from town read -> scum read.

So I don't get lynched. I wouldn't bother otherwise.

...Fair enough, I guess. I don't really think it's helping you out though.

What ad hom attacks?

Can you actually consider things properly, what's your problem etc etc.

-----

This doesn't make sense. Why did you just laugh off the case, then?

You didn't really say a lot and there wasn't a lot that I felt like I could reply to. You voted me for being on the Malee wagon for too long. I agreed, and I was going to do ISOs that day so I knew I was going to, as you said, "get off the pot." Then you said "out of place complimenting" was bad, and...I still don't see why. So I just decided to be a dick and get on with my ISOs, because I figured you'd see that I was actually getting shit done.

But that didn't happen I guess.

You're not sure where I'm getting that from? You said, blatantly, that the reason you doubted your read and switched your vote was because of Alice's points on DDD. Not because you realized the case was bad. But because of Alice's points on DDD. And now you said that had nothing to do with it?

Well, your acting as if I ONLY unvoted Alice based on her points on DDD. That's not true. It was because of her play in general and my rethinking of the case that caused me to unvote. So, yeah, DDD did have something to do with it. But you're overstating the significance.

In the statement you bolded, you could replace hence with "which was one of the reasons," and it'd have a more accurate meaning.

Generally, people start out strong and lose stamina over time. Like writing a paper or doing homework.

Eh. I don't do page by page ISOs, so that might be why I couldn't sympathize.

[Lastsurvivor]

PEDIT: *I don't do page by page catch up posts.

[hiplop]

i think I see what Macro is getting at.

He's either scum or very fucking smart town, I'm not sure which though :\

light macro on fire.

No longer smart town, suddenly buffoon scum

Just wondering, what has made him go from smart town to buffoon scum?

Figured he may have been a PGO/BP (or role of that caliber). Where he was hoping claiming a PR would eat the scumshot

[Fishythefish]

Fishy: Did you always think a non-VT claim was unacceptable or did it take you a while to decide?

When I first posted after your claim, I was too tired to want to think about the game. A non-VT claim is fairly non-standard, and I don't think I've seen one before. I wanted to think about a) if it made you town and b) if it was something I can live with. I decided mildly scummy for a) - the only time I've softclaimed vaguely similarly was as scum, but I don't know how well that holds up in general, and no for b).

The follow up VT claim makes me think you're town. I'm lost for scumreads in this game, though my townreads are pretty awesome. Tempted just to follow Nacho, who is town and seems to have things under control, but annoyingly he's voting for someone I think was town. Though I really can't remember why - I should try to work that out.

UNVOTE:

More later.

[Macrophage]

@Nacho

I'll try rereading him and post what I think is significant. From what I remember, I found him really scummy early game and then really townish later. His posting now is scummy again.

I think that DDD is the better lynch though. What do you think of him?

@Rhinox

I'm pretty sure I already answered that. I think I said that vincent said some slightly townie things, some slightly townie things, and other than that, didn't make much of an impression.

Your response didn't do anything for me. Scum often have "town" explanations for what they do.

@LS I don't think that's ad hom. You just aren't considering things properly...

@Hiplop Can you say a short few sentences on why you think I'm scum?

[Voidedmafia]

Nacho: Derp.

Macro: While I suppose I should be thankful for that, it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to appease me at the last second and hope that I unvote. I won't deny you your opinion, but you're a bit too late. I'm not changing my vote from you today.

[Macrophage]

Oh really? What if I call you supertown?

[Nachomamma8]

You didn't really say a lot and there wasn't a lot that I felt like I could reply to. You voted me for being on the Malee wagon for too long. I agreed, and I was going to do ISOs that day so I knew I was going to, as you said, "get off the pot." Then you said "out of place complimenting" was bad, and...I still don't see why. So I just decided to be a dick and get on with my ISOs, because I figured you'd see that I was actually getting shit done.

But that didn't happen I guess.

I don't see your logic.
You saw that my case had a valid point. You didn't understand the other one. So you misrepresent my case (saying that it was based off a joke that you made), and laugh it off. Why did you expect anyone to take that response as pro-town?

Well, your acting as if I ONLY unvoted Alice based on her points on DDD. That's not true. It was because of her play in general and my rethinking of the case that caused me to unvote. So, yeah, DDD did have something to do with it. But you're overstating the significance.

In the statement you bolded, you could replace hence with "which was one of the reasons," and it'd have a more accurate meaning.

I'm acting that way because that is what you said originally. Now I don't know what the hell you are saying anymore, considering we've gone from DDD was the only reason, to DDD had nothing to do with it, to "it was one of the reasons".

[Voidedmafia]

Now you're just being stupid. I'm not going going to call you town just because you call me town.

[Nachomamma8]

What ad hom attacks?

Can you actually consider things properly, what's your problem etc etc.

Um, this is a bit of reaching you're doing here.

[Nachomamma8]

Now you're just being stupid. I'm not going going to call you town just because you call me town.

aaaand you've proven his point.

[4nxi3ty]

Meh. If you look at the vote count archive, that's not really true. Well, someone might always jump off before I unvote, sure, but I don't always end up on the biggest wagon.

the three main wagons of today have been funky, alice, and macro; the vote count may not show it but you have pushed all of those lynches when they were the center of discussion. You have moved on to someone new everytime there was and indication of discussion shifting. You can not simply pass this off as "correlation is not causesation".

[Lastsurvivor]

@Macro: Maybe I'm just misremembering what adhom is. idk. If I'm reaching or something, then just disregard.

And are you sure you aren't finding me scummy because I'm attacking you?

What does everyone think of Macro's claim? Some of us seem to find it a town tell, but I'm not so sure.

----

@Nacho:

First point: I didn't really care if you thought my reaction to your vote was pro-town. But that doesn't make me scum. But I figured you'd see that my Alice case (which I thought was good at the time) and following ISO analysis post and see that I was providing content.

Second: I mistyped/lied when I said that her points about DDD had nothing to do with me unvoting.

BUT you're still misinterpreting the post. I saw Alice's general posting after I posted my case and started doubting myself. Basically I started doubting myself when she actually replied to my case. Then I looked back on my case and realized it was crap and unvoted.

Yes, DDD had something to do with it, but it was only a part. If you think of it in that context, I'm not sure how what I originally said doesn't make sense. I think you're just being too literal with your words.

----

Meh. If you look at the vote count archive, that's not really true. Well, someone might always jump off before I unvote, sure, but I don't always end up on the biggest wagon.

the three main wagons of today have been funky, alice, and macro; the vote count may not show it but you have pushed all of those lynches when they were the center of discussion. You have moved on to someone new everytime there was and indication of discussion shifting. You can not simply pass this off as "correlation is not causesation".

Alice and Funky weren't the center of discussion when I voted them. I basically made Alice the center of discussion, and while maybe Fishy was talking about Funky...I definitely would not call him the center.

So, yes, Macro was the center of discussion when I voted him. Shoot me.

And, erm...I've moved on to someone new everytime there was an indication of discussion shifting? I mean, maybe? You've obviously looked into that one more than I have. When I switched from Alice to Funky that was because...I thought Alice was town. I didn't think "OMG the discussion is shifting! Better unvote!" It was a switch because my reads switched. What a shock.

Funky to Macro was because I figured a Funky lynch wasn't going to happen. So, yeah, I guess you could say it was because of a discussion shift. I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing though. I had already previously stated that I thought the Macro slot (Malee/Theo) was scum, so it's not like it was a big surprise.

[Voidedmafia]

Now you're just being stupid. I'm not going going to call you town just because you call me town.

aaaand you've proven his point.

What point, exactly? My read on him hasn't changed, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[Alicewondering]

light macro on fire.

No longer smart town, suddenly buffoon scum

Why?

For me, I'm still vacillating on the VT claim, but I'm leaning towards it coming from town. So there goes one scumread.

I saw Alice's general posting after I posted my case and started doubting myself. Basically I started doubting myself when she actually replied to my case. Then I looked back on my case and realized it was crap and unvoted.

You accused me of a scummy reply when I replied to your case. So not sure what you're saying here.

Nacho, why is DCL town?

[Lastsurvivor]

You accused me of a scummy reply when I replied to your case. So not sure what you're saying here.

I'm mostly referring to this reply, not the previous one. After that I started looking back over your posts and my case and stuff.

[Macrophage]

@LS That's actually a part of it yeah.

Also for me are the reasons you've used to suspect people throughout.

@Nacho My opinion of LS hasn't really changed. There are a few things I find scummy about him, but a lot of his posts give me the impression of town trying hard to move the town forward, get everyone to answer questions etc.

He's definitely one of my weaker townreads though, and I don't think I even have 3 scumreads. Can you say what you think is most scummy about him?

Also what do you think of Debonair?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Nacho, I haven't seen anything scummy from Last.

Last, yes, Macro's VT claim is obviously a town tell. He claimed non-VT to avoid a lynch, but wouldn't claim an actual power role because he didn't want a counterclaim. Scum in that spot would probably claim a specific power role to either draw a counter and NK a power role or get no counter and "confirm" themselves as town.

[DCLXVI]

So as I was reading the game I made a chart showing who had voted who. I found the information to be very interesting.

I think this post will be very useful down the road when we get some flips.

With the following list I'm going to show how many people have voted for each person. So, the people following the person in bold will be the players who have voted for the bolded person over the course of the game.

I'm very positive this information is correct, but if I have made a mistake counting votes than please point it out

For players that have been replaced I am only using the name of the replacer most times to keep things less confusing.

9

Macrophage

Fishy, rhinox, DCLXVI, 4nxiety, voided, lastsurvivor, hiplop, DDD, Alicewondering
9

Alicewondering

Fishy, rhinox, Nacho, DCLXVI, anxiety, last survivor, hiplop, kortul, Macro
7

DCLXVI

Fishy, Nacho, Kortul, Voided, Lastsurvivor, Sleepless assassin, Alicewondering

5

Sleepless Assassin

Fishy, kortul, lastsurvivor, hiplop, Alicewondering
4

rhinox

fishy, 4nxiety, last survivor, hiplop
3

nachomama

Macro, hiplop, DDD
3

Fishy

4nxiety, sleepless assassin, hiplop
3

Lastsurvivor

Nacho, DCLXVI, 4nxi3ty,
3

Debonair

Macro, Sleepless, Alicewondering
2

hiplop

Alicewondering, Rhinox
2

Voidedmafia

Macro, Rhinox
1

4nxiety

Rhinox
0

kortul

There have been three big wagons over the course of the game, Funky/DCLXVI, Malee/theo/macro, and Alicewondering. I wanted to see if there were similarities between these wagons.

Players that voted for all three sometime in the game 2: Fishy, last survivor
Players that voted for at least two of the major wagons 8: Rhinox, DCLXVI,4nxiety, hiplop, Alicewondering, nacho, kortul, voided
-Players voting for Funky/DCLXVI and Malee/theo/macro 2: Alicewondering, Voided
-Players voting for Funky/DCLXVI and Alicewondering 2: Nacho, kortul
-Players voting for Malee/theo/macro and Alicewondering 4: Rhinox, DCLXVI, 4nxi3ty, hiplop
-Players voting for just one of the wagons: DDD, Sleepless assassin, Macro
-Players not involved in either of the wagons: 0

Some thoughts from all of this analysis:

-Fishy and Last survivor have voted for the exact same players the entire game: Sleepless assassin, rhinox, funky/DCL, macro/theo/malee, Alice.
----These 5 players they voted for are the top 5 wagons so far in the game.

-Rhinox has been involved in voting for a few people no one else has really targeted: 4nxi3ty, hiplop, Voidedmafia.

-Only 3 players did not vote for macro/theo/malee so far: Sleepless assassin, nachomama, kortul.
----However, those three players were all on the funky/DCL wagon.
----Both Nacho and kortul were on alice.

-Only three players did not vote for Alicewondering all game: Sleepless, Voided, DDD

I'm sure some other info can be drawn from the list I made, but I'm to tired to think about it right now...I need sleep...

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox

1)I'm pretty sure I already answered that. I think I said that vincent said some slightly townie things, some slightly townie things, and other than that, didn't make much of an impression.

2)Your response didn't do anything for me. Scum often have "town" explanations for what they do.

1)I didnt remember you saying anything about vincent but i'll read through your posts again when i get back to a comp.

2)isnt that exactly the same kinda statement you have a problem being used about the things you're saying?

Quit trying to be subtly snarking and address the real issue. Why is it scummy that i backed off of hiplop?

[Fishythefish]

The universal positive reaction to Macro's claim makes me worried that's what he planned

Looking at LS, I no longer think he's particularly townish, but tbh I don't really get the case on him. I'll give it another go tomorrow. For now, I'm just going to sheep Nacho.

VOTE: LS

[Macrophage]

@Rhinox

I hadn't thought of that, but I do think it's different.

You're using the "town can do it too" thing either in response to no one or in response to other people's thoughts of me, while I think your explanation for your actions is not necessarily true.

I think the fact that you were so involved in suspecting hiplop and then backed off because it wasn't going anywhere with no effort afterwards to try and read him is scummy, especially considering it had gotten past the point where you backing off could have caused accusations of wanting to avoid conflict.

@Fishy

What I mostly find scummy about him are his bad questions, his "scum-like" reasoning for suspecting people and I think his recent posting is scummy too, except I don't know how to explain it.

What do you now think of LS's previous posting that led you to believe he was town?

What do you think of Debonair?

[Nachomamma8]

i think I see what Macro is getting at.

He's either scum or very fucking smart town, I'm not sure which though :\

light macro on fire.

No longer smart town, suddenly buffoon scum

Just wondering, what has made him go from smart town to buffoon scum?

Figured he may have been a PGO/BP (or role of that caliber). Where he was hoping claiming a PR would eat the scumshot

Why, as scum, would he claim VT after setting up a powerrole claim?
He's acknowledging that the VT claim likely means death. And yet he doesn't claim a PR after setting up for a PR claim. Why? Do you think he was betting on someone finding this townie? Do you think he didn't think of it?

[Nachomamma8]

Now you're just being stupid. I'm not going going to call you town just because you call me town.

aaaand you've proven his point.

What point, exactly? My read on him hasn't changed, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

You're pretty dead-set on Macro at this point. Doesn't matter what he calls you, you're still going to vote him.

[LlamaFluff]

~bump~