NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

[drmyshotgun]

Man, Mastin barely mentions me!

[Nero Cain]

lynch this cheeky viscumbag.

[drmyshotgun]

I claim PR

[Benmage]

Im not reading any walls mastin posts.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: Gunny

Yeah, no.

[drmyshotgun]

Keep coming. VI ahoy!
See who loves an easy lynch!

[NihilisticNinja]

Mastin's town reads feel manufactured to me- so many of them are based (or almost completely based) on associative tells, which while not meaningless per se, should not be the sole basis for a read on a player. They're also rather inconsistent (He finds Lambda and Maxous, whom I've only been friendly with throughout town due to interactions with me, but also finds vijay and Nero town due to interactions with me, when I've found vijay scummy and was initially antagonistic towards Nero). Can you explain, please?

And *sigh* at shotgun.

[Nero Cain]

shotgun read plox?

[NihilisticNinja]

VI-town, but I will be the first to admit that I fail at reading VIs.

[Nero Cain]

if you have trouble reading vi's why is he vi-town and nt null-vi?

[mastin2]

I'm trying an experiment--I created a lengthy response to Junpei in my QT, but didn't post it; it was rambly and not that on-topic. (Have done similar things for other posts.) However, I'm curious to see if people don't mind once it's cut down. Let me know what you think.

God dammit Mastin, how many games are you in?

Four, including the one I'm moderating--my self-imposed limit.

Mastin I can already tell that your massive walls could EASILY be trimmed down a ton.

Conflicting interest--logic's hard to explain, causing rambling. Will attempt to fix.

You are not following ANY of your advice you make threads on; it's great that you KNOW what to do, but you are completely failing to APPLY that knowledge.

I'm aware; I even said so in-thread. Doing my best, but it's difficult to make theory work in practice.

Are you scum intentionally swamping the game?

Bluntly? No. Never intentionally. Over my dead body. Accidentally, on the other hand... (Working on it.)

[NihilisticNinja]

if you have trouble reading vi's why is he vi-town and nt null-vi?

It's a gut read, I can't really quantify it into words; that's why I have trouble reading them, there's nothing really in the posts themselves I can point to. The behavior just feels like that of town mislynch fodder to me, and not flailing scum.

[mastin2]

Hmm, probably'd get better feedback with this included. (Forgive lack of italics; did not convert html to bbc.)

Spoiler: Original for reference

"God dammit Mastin, how many games are you in?" Actually, not too many. I'm at my self-imposed limit of games where I'm alive in: three, this game, another in New York, and a theme. Plus my modded game to make four, my absolute limit. There are a couple extra games where I'm dead in, which of course means I still follow along, but of course, since I'm not posting actively in 'em, they take less time away and are virtually nonexistent.

I've been down the road of being in too many games at once. It's not a fun place to be. Trust me, I do know better.

"Mastin I can already tell that your massive walls could EASILY be trimmed down a ton." Conflicting interests. Believe it or not, I have gone entire games without posting walls, in that I was relatively concise. In said games, however, I was basically rapidfire posting to replace it, my thoughts were chaotic, I was throwing out a ton of reasoning and giving my reads frequently...but never logic.

Logic for me is...hard. So when I try to do things logically, my posts get a little bit...longer. I'm trying to better my play in all ways, yes, so I do need to trim down on the walls a little, but I view being logical as more important than being concise. Not that I can't have both (I'll try), it's just that given the choice between one or the other, right now, I need logic more.

"You are not following ANY of your advice you make threads on; it's great that you KNOW what to do, but you are completely failing to APPLY that knowledge." I said as much, didn't I? That I had done a lot of reading, but wasn't able to yet make use of most of it? I'm TRYING. But I only have so much time to devote to MD, and when there, it's not like I can read something and INSTANTLY incorporate it into my play. Theoretically, yes, but in practice, I need to focus on that idea, keeping it in mind, while making the post, and even then, it may or may not actually work.

This is hard enough as it is. Resisting the urge to post this, for instance, is progress to me. Not very good progress, mind you, but progress nonetheless.

"Are you scum intentionally swamping the game?" I'll say this clear, right here and now. Bluntly. And to the fact:
No.
Over. my. dead. body.

Not dead-in-the-game-body.

Dead-in-real-life.

I would never.

EVER.

Intentionally abuse my meta as scum. Not now, anyway. Maybe I used to, but even then, I didn't start intentionally, and hated myself once I realized it but continued to do it, anyway.

It goes against my principles. It goes against everything I am as a player. To intentionally spam, for the sake of confusion alone. That's not my style. Not anymore. Not intentionally. No, I wouldn't do that as scum. Not intentionally.

And obviously, since there's no benefit as town, I'd never do it intentionally here, either. It just...happened.

[Nero Cain]

so the "why would you do this as town-attempt to change the subject" seems like what a townie might do. noted.

[Pine]

Oh bullshit, Mastin. I've seen you abuse your meta as scum, and recently. You're still Town here, but be honest with yourself.

[Psyche]

This is comically bad. And now I've read some threads.

If he isn't going away in the night and we deign not to lynch him until we decide that we aren't confusing networks of posts like these for stupidity that means shotty survives to LYLO as...this.

Until then, there will be havoc and repetitive calls to lynch this potential red herring. There will always be momentum detracted from other wagons by the mere fact that he exists, slowing the Day down and generally making this game more annoying.

If there is no solid scumread by the last few days of any Day, especially this one, we need to take up the chore of eradication.

But I'll ignore...this...until those moments of exigency.

So, essentially your saying that until we lynch Shotty his weird and scummy-looking comments will be utilized as a red herring by the scum in order to detract from other bandwagons... like you're doing right now? And you're going to ignore it, except for that part where you just posted paragraphs about it? Is there any particular reason you prefer the rack bandwagon to the shotty one? Because you never explained your rack vote.

You state you have "hangups" regarding the rack wagon. Care to explain what those are?

i'd doubt it. Though a SK or a small scum team thats trying to act like a vg might shoot him.

Adding WIFOM to your scummyness

nero needs to die

vote nero

The hell are you even talking about? And no. We're wagoning rack right now.

Nero- what are your current reads?

Problems with this post:
I didn't say scum would necessarily use shotty as a red herring. I said that shotty was one. This show of misrepping is interesting.

And yes, as I posted, I'm going to ignore...that...except, obviously, for when I made this post about...that.

I prefer rack because his posts so far seem scummy while shotty's posts give no such signal. Besides, as I said, I'm limiting my attention to shotty to moments of uncertain exigency, as I noted clearly in the post you quoted.

And in my post about hang-ups, the subject of the relevant phrase was the players as a whole, not rack. As someone with an attention span and capacity to read might observe.

I find rack's post scummy for the same reasons everyone else did — his posts are fillery pseudocontent that evoke in me negative feelings even pre-analysis.

[Firestarter]

My game notes can be found below.
Im current up to post 229 - anything posted afterward I will address tomorrow.

Spoiler:

#37

CandyCornV - questions NN/LLD buddying up? (Question about interactions prior to role PM's being sent, easily checked)

#45

Benmage says "This shit counts"... What shit? And seemingly wants a quicklynch, eh...

#54

Benmage buddying up to KK. Doesn't like the idea of having to play with a town mastin2.

#55

HexLucky would like to quicklynch Nero Cain.

#56

mastin2 advertises his "how to play mafia" thread.

#57

mastin2 responds to Benmages'

#54

, "why aren't you quicklynching me?"

#58

KK posts thoughts on who may be town and may be scum.

#59

&

#60

mastin2 and his soliloquies

#61

Junpei tells mastin2 to stop with his soliloquies.

#66

Nero Cain quite likes the idea of a Shotty PL, down to shotty being a VI.
NN questions this, looks for examples and in...

#68

Nero Cain goes defensive, asking why NN is "seemingly" being defensive of shotty.
NN shoots Nero down wih

#69

#70

Nero Cain hits back with...
"VI's are hard to read/Everyone knows shotty is a VI"... and asks NN "why are you taking this so personally"
regarding a PL on shotty.

#71

LLD questions Nero's

#68

and disagrees with the idea of PL shotty, chooisng to garner info from that slot intead.
Regardless, LLD affirms that shotty is "bad".
LLD then goes on to say she would not mind a Mastin lynch, and probes KK with questioning.

#72

Nero is flabbergasted with LLD's

#71

- stating that he wasn't even the one to bring up a shotty PL.
Instead he points to Benmage and redFFs' interaction in

#46

&

#50

.

#74

HezLucky paints Nero as scum for his recent postings.

#79

NN tells Nero that he agrees with shotty VI being a PL, but will not go along with it because reasoning does not match up.
Nero again states that he was not the one to bring up the iea of a shotty PL.

#86

shotty questions why Nero was unable to provide a worthy post that would back up a shotty PL.
Shotty himself says there are plenty of games that he played awful in.

#88

Maxous states Nero's

#70

is odd.

#89

rack questions NN regarding his line of questioning to Nero re: shoty PL.
rack accuses LLD as being oddly passive.
He also asks why mastin2 has chosen to re-invent himself at this moment while telling Nero to move on from shotty PL lines.

#90

LLD takes offence from racks'

#89

#91

NN points to his post where he explains to Nero what an "acceptable post" regarding evidence for a shotty PL would look
like and has to spell out to rack exactly why he didn't look for said evidence himself.

#92

redFF reels off some reasoning why a shotty PL is a good idea.

#94

CCV tells Maxous her question regarding a potential NN/LLD buddying exercise was a joke.
CCV also says PL's are boring and that rack is scummy.

#96

KK questions why Junpei, in his

#61

, told mastin2 to stop being "reflective".
KK, aiming at Nero, enquires why he is unable to back up his argument that shotty is a VI.
Explains why he posted early reads on several players in

#58

Asks CCV why rack is scummiest at the moment?

#100

rack: Nero is null-leaning-scum.
Confirms playing in-game as a Hydra.

#103

Pine: NN & mastin2 - town. Maxous, Nero & KK - weak-town
Informs all that those who are suspicious of mastins' self-reinvention, are immediately under suspicion themselves.
LLD & rack in the spotlight here.

#106

TML wants rack to die a painful death immediately.
Also signals intent to kill scooby.
Goes on to claim that scooby "ignored" a page and a half of "content" in

#109

.

#110

NN agrees with TML that racks first post of any content is the scummiest thing in the thread.
States that LLD pressure on Nero was good, but states that LLD's

#71

is a bit wierd.

#115

redFF dislikes Hydras, and wants clarification on who each head is... or they die... after shotty.

#116

Pine tells redFF to ease off the Hydra, that any issues would have been taken care of pre-game.

#117

TML states he will not tiptoe around his sum reads.
Also states that he see no town-motivation for "what scooby did", but sees scum motivation instead.
Still wants rack dead.
Townish reads include: NN, CCV, Pine, KK.

#118

Pine fails to see any motivation in scoobys' only post in the game to date

#119

KK nods in aproval at "the pressure that The Mini-Librarian is trying to exert" on scooby.
KK also agrees with NN's line of questioning to rack.
KK: Town - TML & NN

#121

Pine: "KK, he's deserving of pressure. Not of "NEEDS TO DIE NOW"."

#122

Nero claims NN's push on him to post content regarding shotty's PL is "just tedious and unneeded"
whn NN could easily have looked himself.

#123

KK defends TML's strong arm appraoch of scooby.
KK then adds: "Whatever you think, scooby definitely ain't deserving of the defense you're volunteering."
KK then adds fuel to the Nero/shotty/VI/PL fire by stating that a shift in th burden of proof isn't a good thing.
Nero in

#124

simply adds "he could have looked it up."

#126

NN senses a "distancing vibe from redFF and Pine's regarding the rack-hydra debate."
NN: KK & TML - town

#127

LLD responds to NN's

#110

regarding LLD's suspicions of mastin2

#129

In response to Nero's

#124

, LLD states that the burden of proof was with Nero due to his
accusations of shotty being a VI.

#130

NN: LLD - Town
NN states that associative tells pre-any-flip are possible, but should not be strong-vibed and certainly
not vote-worthy. rack/LLD connection is nonsense.

#131

LLD agrees it is worth noting associative tells from D1, but should only become stronger/weaker after heads roll.

#133

LLD: Town/Townish/leaning Town - NN, KK & TML.
Scum - Nero & rack

#134

Pine states LLD/rack distancing connection stems from an earlier scum read on both (

#103

)
Also states that "light and meaningless bickering" has taken place between them.
Accuses LLD of being disingenuous when she "demeans" TML's suspicion of rack, yet classes rack as scum later on.

#137

LLD points out that Pines' claim of "meaningless bickering" between rack & LLD is anything but meaningless bickering.

#140

Amidst the war of words, redFF tells all and sundry to calm down, that "We're lynching shotty day 1"

#141

Benmage: Town - NN, LLD, KK & redFF
Scum - rack, shotty & scooby.

#142

LLD asks Benmage to explain "shotty-scum".

#143

NN asks redFF to conjure up some answers to questions that NN had asked for twice, previously.
Also asks Benmage to explain "redFF-Town".

#149

Benmage:
Town - KK, LLD, TML, NN, mastin2, redFF, CCV & Pine
Scum: rack, Hezlucky, shotty, scooby, vijay2vasandani (V2V)

#151

redFF refuses to do anything but tell everyone that shotty is the D1 lynch.

#152

NN tells redFF that shotty will not be D1 kill, purely down to policy.
Lack of compelling case = main reason.

#153

&

#154

redFF states that an agreement made with Nero before-knowing-alignment was a good idea.
he goes on to state that shotty is a VI & that he doesn't like him.

#158

NN: Nero Cain & Maxous - townies

#162

HezLucky FOS redFF. Nero "needs to die".

#165

Benmage: No case for shotty - Just VI & PL.

#166

Benmage: Nero needs to be vigged.

#167

NN: PL case is no case. 7 pages of content for Benmage to work with, re: shotty.

#168

Benmage: When game starts, rack hangs.

#169

NN tels Benmage not to direct a vig (if there is one)

#170

Benmage tells NN that "Lot of people don't know how to properly use PRs", and "nothing wrong with suggested guidance".

#171

Pine claims that LLD said mastin2 needed to die at least 2 or 3 times and that it looked geniune.
Distancing claim between rack/LLD is combined with independant scumreads on both. The latter being circumstantial.

#175

Junpei claims most of what is posted as being "useless" up to this time.

#179

shotty agrees with Junpei's

#175

#185

Macros disagrees with PL'ing.

#186

KK: " Day 1 non-deadline policy lynches are bullshit"

#197

redFF: Nero pushing a PL is null and sees nothing scummy in him.
If the rack hydra does not declare their heads they = scumread.

#198

NN questions Junpei's assesment of the game up to now, as being useless.

#198

NN dismisses Pines

#171

#206

GAME OFFICIALLY STARTS

#207

,

#208

,

#209

3 rack votes in quick succession. Benmage, TML & Psyche (no prior input from Psyche).

#210

mastin2 votes KK because "We're six-for-six with him being scum in games I play in".

#211

Maxous non-commital on rack, wiating for explanation on Nero stance and latest comment.
Questions Pines defence of scooby, and his town read on mastin2.

#214

shotty votes Nero Cain

#215

Psyche states his happiness to "eradicate" shotty from the game, at any time.

#216

TML asks mastin2 for actual reasoning behind his KK-vote.

#217

Pine responds to Maxous regarding mastin2 townread - experience & gut.

#218

NN votes rack, also open to a Pine or Junpei wagon.

#219

Pine votes rack.

#221

HezLucky votes Nero Cain.

#223

NN questions Psyche over his notion that killing shotty a anytime is a good idea.

#224

Psyche refuses to acknowledge NN's line of questioning/posting style.

#225

NN puts everyhting into laymans terms for Psyche. Questions Psyches' failure to place a vote
on shotty.

#227

rack shows up and confirms that everything posted until this point was from Head A.
Admits to putting the slot into a "shitstorm" that Head B will try and extract said slot from.

#229

redFF asks rack (Head A) to do something useful like scmhunting.

Town, Null and Scum reads.

Spoiler:

Psyche

-

Scum-read

Instant rack-vote upon arrival.
Extremely strong dislike for shotty - But no vote?
If #215 is a town post, I fail to see why no vote was placed on shotty.
Refusing to acknowledge/answer NN's questions/post.

Kublai Khan - Town-read

Most of what KK has written so far I agree with, except maybe the stance on scooby.
I agree with Pine here, that death shouldn't be in the pipeline for someone who only posted
once, and that was to confirm.
I came in and did the same thing, confirmed. Where was the pressure on me?

scooby - Null-read

Not enough content.

jasonT1981 - Null-read

Not enough content

The Mini-Librarian - Slight-Scum-Read

I severely dislike #117. You are either being completely stupid or you are scum.
Tell me, where was your content in your confirmation post? Yeah... exactly.

rack - Scum-read

#89 is bad. I need not say anymore.

DeasVail - Null-read

Not enough content

Macros - Null-read

Not enough content

NihilisticNinja - Town-read

Content, probing, analysing. All town traits thus far.

Benmage - Null-read

Early talk of quicklynches and PL's puts me off. But I'm null here at the moment.

Pine - Null-read

I agree that the heat on scooby was overboard.
I don't agree that rack/LLD are distancing.
I don't know what to make of the mastin2 issue, but I have not been in a game before
when someone has announced a change of playstyle.
Nor have I played with mastin before iirc.

drmyshottyizsik - Null-read

I Like his #86. Other than that there's nothing to go on.

HezLucky - Null-read

10 posts and they seem to be all about Nero Cain.
Reads on other slots please.

drmyshotgun - Null-leaning-Scum-read

15 posts and they are... useless.
For the record - I will not be PL'ing anyone.
Not in this game, not in any game.
However, content is lacking from this slot.

Nero Cain - Scum-read

The Shotty incident. PL'ing him. Not gonna happen.
You say you were not the one to bring up the idea that shotty should be PL'ed.
But you grabbed the baton and ran with it anyway.
When you were quizzed on it, you failed to deliver anything in the way of proof that shotty
was a VI. Yes, those who were questioning you could have looked for it themselves,
but the BoP lies with you.

redFF - Null-read

On my re-read, I found this slot to be one of the tougher reads for some reason.
As I've said before, the whole Policy Lynching thing is not my bag.
I disagree with it, but as stand alone point in ones ISO, not worthy of being called scum for.

Candy Corn Vampire - Slight-Town-Read

I can't argue with anything, as little as there is, in any of your posts really.

mastin2 - Null-read

Don't like your KK vote in #210.
Other than that, not alot to work on.

Lady Lambdadelta - Town-read

Like NN, LLD has been providing content, probing and questioning away. All Town traits.

Junpei - Null-read

Another with a few posts, but not alot to go on.

Maxous - Null-read

I don't agree with your thoughts on Pine & scooby, as I've stated twice iirc, Pines "defence" of scooby, imo, is not a defence at all. It is a reaction to an overreaction.

vijay2vasandani - Null-read

5 posts with nothing to work with here.

Praetyre - Null-read

Not enough content.

Scum-Reads

Psyche
rack
Nero Cain

Weak-Scum-Reads

The Mini Librarian
drmyshotgun

Town-Reads

NihilisticNinja
Kublai Khan
LadyLambdaDelta

VOTE: rack

[Junpei]

Wow Mastin, the edited version is better, but the fail in the earlier version is so much that I think it could be faked.

[Kublai Khan]

@mastin2 - *low whistle* A two-parter analysis and you've only covered my first 3 posts. Impressive as always.

For those unknowning of the meta between me and mastin2 (and/or just skimmed his post), I've been mastin2's nemesis. Dating back to when mastin2 was just Mastin, I have been scum in every single game that we happen to have been together in (6 now, I think).

I knew his "Khan is scum" tunnel was coming and there's nothing I could really do to avoid it. He's willing to interpret anything as scummy because that what he wants to find. Of course, he's ignoring the observer effect problem of the whole thing. Am I saying stuff just to appear town? Not conciously, but maybe unconciously so. Like that wikipedia link a couple of sentences ago. I've done that as scum in a game with mastin2 before, so is it a scumtell? Not really. I do it regardless of alignment. But based on his biased sample size of my play, he'll undoubtedly consider it one.

mastin2 has only ever seen facets of my scumgame, so that's why I get a 2-part dissertation on how devious I am. (The Best SK meat cleaver award that'll appear under my name probably won't help at all either.) And comments like "Was Jesus Jewish?" being WIFOM-analyzed. It's not a super-scummy cryptic way of... wait, I don't even know why/how crypticness is scummy, but that's beside the point.

I won't really confront mastin2 directly, because there's no point. He's looking for arguments to fit his conclusion. But he does have a really good analytical mind when it comes to observing interactions and if he's town I'd like to harness it. So I'm going to make a request of him. I'd like him to compile two sets of analysis. One being his normal one where he considers me scum based on out-of-game statistics, and another one where he pretends my name is "randomnewuserguy" and reads the game in a more neutral fashion. I know it's more work, but could this be done?

[Nero Cain]

Hey firestarter, is the earth round?

[mastin2]

Ohgod. Oh, god. Firestarter. really. is. scum. That post. just.

painfully

so. IioA, bad reads, scummy tone...

I need to go back to my QT to type out the details in more...coherence.

In the mean time...

---

I'm not going to ignore the rest of his post, but there's not much point in me responding to the rest of it without having thought things through, first. I *could* maybe get some supporters, but I wouldn't grow, and Khan'd massacre me more than he already is. So I need my QT for him as well. But for now,

One being his normal one where he considers me scum based on out-of-game statistics, and another one where he pretends my name is "randomnewuserguy" and reads the game in a more neutral fashion. I know it's more work, but could this be done?

If you were "randomnewuserguy", I'd have a scumread on you nonetheless. (It's not because it's you, Khan. I'd love the day where I see you as town [it is sadly not this day]. It's because I saw you post, exactly as I'd expect scum to, and interactions strongly support it. You're not scum because you're Khan; you're scum because you're scum.) But I could. Probably will.

(Yeah, need my QT. Rambling.)

[Nero Cain]

shut up Mastin and help me lynch cheeky scumshotgun

[redFF]

this rack wagon is great and in no way suspicious.

[Nero Cain]

though I have to agree that fire is very probable scum. Psyche is his #1 but he joins the rack wagon?

[NihilisticNinja]

Problems with this post:
I didn't say scum would necessarily use shotty as a red herring. I said that shotty was one. This show of misrepping is interesting.

You're right. Technically, you did not say that the scum will use shotty as a red herring. I did infer this from the fact that you said that his presence would create "havoc and repetitive calls to lynch" and detract "momentum from other wagons". So you're saying that it's the townies that would be creating this havoc, and repeatedly calling to lynch him? Because that sounds more like things the scum would do to take advantage of VI shotty.

And let's look at the definition of the word "red herring". I used good ol' Wikipedia, but pretty much any resource should give you a similar definition.

A red herring is a clue or piece of information which is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual issue. For example, in mystery fiction, where the identity of a criminal is being sought, an innocent party may be purposefully cast in a guilty light by the author through the employment of deceptive clues, false emphasis, "loaded" words or other descriptive tricks of the trade.

So for shotty to be a "red herring", there would have to be a party intending for it to be misleading/distract from the actual issue. Perhaps this was just a confusion brought about by word usage, but when I think of a "red herring", I think of one party being manipulated by another to make them look guilty.

And yes, as I posted, I'm going to ignore...that...except, obviously, for when I made this post about...that.

I suppose I don't understand the purpose of the post. You say "shotty is a distraction that we should try and ignore", yet you feel the need to make a post whose whole purpose is to say "HEY GUYS, THIS GUY IS DISTRACTING. IGNORE HIM.", when nobody else was saying anything about him, and thus not distracted by him. It just feels so unnecessary.

I prefer rack because his posts so far seem scummy while shotty's posts give no such signal. Besides, as I said, I'm limiting my attention to shotty to moments of uncertain exigency, as I noted clearly in the post you quoted.

Except for the time when you made an entire post dedicated to how distracting he would end up being. That's EXACTLY what I find so odd. Your words are contradicting your actions.

And in my post about hang-ups, the subject of the relevant phrase was the players as a whole, not rack. As someone with an attention span and capacity to read might observe.

As you may be aware, sometimes this thing called "misreading" occurs, where somebody misses/misreads a word/phrase in a post and think that they are talking about something else. I misread that sentence. I'm sorry.

Also, firestarter's post is awful. Almost all of it is IIoA that desperately tries to look like content, and the rest is base reads that are contradicted by the vote.

Also, redFF- I'd be willing to join a counterwagon. Who do you think it should be on?