Open 382: Friends and Enemies in MSPaint! (Game Over)

[Slandaar]

Masons - Alice, Kondi, Blueberry
Scum - Slandaar/rhinox/ETA/Haze combo

(hence me going hard for ETA)

I made a post showing your interactions with Elmo, I dont remember seeing this. How strange.

[Rhinox]

who is scum rainbow?

rhinox same q

I don't know. You've both been townreads for me, rainbow moreso than you. I need to go reread and see what I've been missing.

Based on what I've seen today:

slan- I don't like where you call yourself conf-town because you're not. Why did you analyze your interactions with blue and not elmo? I get suspicious whenever someone says they would or wouldn't do something as scum.

rainbow- I don't really like the "vote nolynch no nevermind". Its out of your character this game. I don't believe you would suddenly on the last day stop thinking through your thoughts before you post them, or forget that alice is a conftown mason. So why did you do it?

Thats just what I noticed real quickly from today, I'll reread and post more thoroughly later on. Actually a couple other small things I noticed in slan's posts but idk if its really that important to get into.

[Slandaar]

Rhinox why didnt you read game during the night?

[Slandaar]

also WIFOM is only WIFOM when you cannot predict the most logical route

Do you really think I dont just nk alice n1 and vote pizza/kass d1 if im scum?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox why didnt you read game during the night?

Idk, I usually don't read through games at night and start the day prepared with posts I guess. I have other games to focus on, and limited time on the weekends anyways.

also WIFOM is only WIFOM when you cannot predict the most logical route

Do you really think I dont just nk alice n1 and vote pizza/kass d1 if im scum?

Well first off you would not have been the only scum at that point so who you personally would have nked is irrelevant if you got outvoted. And its not like Rainbow or I can't look back at an event somewhere in the game and come up with a logical reason why we'd have done it differently if we were scum.

If there's a logical conclusion that says you're town, I should find it myself. When you're thinking that much about what makes you town, it makes it seem more plausible that you would do or not do something specifically because you know you can argue the "logical" conclusion is that you're town. I'm not saying that, what you're saying makes you town, I think makes you scum. I'm just saying that if those scanarios did point to you being more likely town, it loses credibility when you come out at the start of the day ready to make that argument, rather than me finding and realizing it myself. And, I mean, its not like scum always do the most logical thing every time anyways, right?

[Slandaar]

The point you are arguing was in my post about your interactions with Elmo

You are trying to suggest I went out of my way to make said argument when I clearly did not.

You think its more town to not say anything? seems like a scum move to me leaving out info to manipulate.

What is the issue exactly?

[Rhinox]

The issue is I don't see how you're "conftown" there or even likely town. I don't get what you were saying there at all, other than somehow you think you're conftown because of it.

[Slandaar]

If I believe Alice has a qt and I am scum
I must realise she is mason
Therefore I nk and dont bother with the case as pushing said case is very suicidal for me and gains me nothing. Kill and be done.
Therefore I cannot be scum here.

I find it strange you disagree

[Slandaar]

Also Rhinox

Give me a reason Alice is alive today

And I want a reason, dont say you dont know

Speculate

[Rhinox]

gah I thought I replied yesterday where is my post?? grrrrrrrrrrrrrr..

*sigh* the jist of what I wrote was:

@432: I didn't/don't disagree. I didn't click what you were saying before for some reason but I get it now after #432. I think I was focused more on you calling yourself conftown that I didn't read too closely what you were actually saying.

So, if you're scum and you thought alice had a QT then you'd have realized she was a mason, and its likely she'd have been killed. so yes I agree with that statement if it is accurate. However, remembering the situation now, you're assumption was wrong (that alice was referring to the first roll of the game) because alice said she was referring to a previous game where you were town when she said "you must be scum this time". So unless you completely disregarded that explanation, you would have no reason to assume alice had a QT. So, still not conftown.

I guess I just don't feel good about players who try to prove why they are "conftown" with reasoning that starts out with "If I were scum I would/wouldn't have..." Even if its a completely logical statement, because sometimes scum do things illogical or just downright screw up and try to cover their tracks. There was a game I was scum that got lost in the crash - I was a GF and a "cop" claimed innocent on me. I later fake claimed (not under pressure, just because I had a plan that SHOULD have worked great) - what I messed up about was that the game was open or semi open and the cops were not normal cops but rolecops. A second rolecop who also investigated me immediately called me out. I tried to claim I was gambiting, that I'm not an idiot who would just forget that the cops were rolecops, and no way would I claim any role there if I were scum and a cop just said I was innocent when I could just coast on that result. I even had a believable story where I remembered where in a past game, someone claimed to be masons with the player who was cop and called me innocent, and she just went with it even though they weren't masons for whatever reason., and thats why I tried this gambit, because I thought she would go with it.

anyways thats about where the crash happened so I didn't get to play it out from there, but a few people were convinced by my story (and a few weren't as well). But the moral is, no matter how logical an "if I were scum statement" sounds, it doesn't necessarily mean anything, because scum don't always do the logical thing in the moment, and its easy to look back at your play in retrospect and find mistakes and illogical play and claim you wouldn't have done them as scum because you're not stupid or illogical.



@433: I can come up with explanations that make sense to me why you or rainbow would and wouldn't leave alice alive:

rainbowscum would leave alice alive
- alice suspects slandaar mostly and me somewhat, so unlikely rainbow gets lynched with alice alive

rainbowscum would NOT leave alice alive
- takes away potential quickhammer: rainbow would think based on what I've said all game that I would be likely to vote slandaar, having called rainbow town all game and slandaar top suspect if not kass. ergo, leaving alice alive takes away his quickhammer if I vote slandaar.

slandaarscum would NOT leave alice alive
-obv because alice suspects him most and will likely vote him

slandaarscum would leave alice alive
-but alice flipped on her suspicions once already, when she said I was her top pick for the next day and the she didn't die that night. so you could be hoping to convince us you would never leave alice alive, knowing that there is a precedent for that kinda reasoning to be accepted.


I've been busy at work this week and yesterday was my wife's b-day so I haven't got around to doing a re-read and trying to work this out yet but I will when I can.

[Slandaar]

I feel like you are fencesitting too much

[Rhinox]

I feel like you are fencesitting too much

You're the one who asked me to

speculate

about why alice was left alive.

But yeah, I am fencesitting, until I go back through the thread and figure out which of my top 2 town reads all game are actually scum. But in case for some reason I haven't been clear, my legs are and dangling down on your side of the fence I'm now sitting on, but I do feel I owe the game the diligence to go through it one more time and try to convince myself I'm going to vote the right way, make sure I haven't overlooked something or interpretted something incorrectly along the way. I don't appreciate the potshots you're throwing at me.

[Slandaar]

yes I didnt want a hundred possible reasons, I wanted why you think shes still alive

[Slandaar]

the speculate bit was so that you had no excuse not to give an answer... but you still managed to not really give one

[Rhinox]

yes I didnt want a hundred possible reasons, I wanted why you think shes still alive

Alice being alive doesn't eliminate either of you as possible suspects IMO, so I don't care why she's still alive. I wasn't really planning on considering it at all in determining who to vote.

[Slandaar]

Rest were really guesses, figured one of Blueberry/Haze at least had to be mason because they both had basically no interactions with anypony eliminating them from mason chances, Alice I read as heavy town and worked with mason reads so in they went.

Rhinox give me your thoughts on this sentence

[Rhinox]

Rest were really guesses, figured one of Blueberry/Haze at least had to be mason because they both had basically no interactions with anypony eliminating them from mason chances, Alice I read as heavy town and worked with mason reads so in they went.

Rhinox give me your thoughts on this sentence

After staring at that sentence for about 10 minutes and reading post 423 a few times, the only thought on that sentence I have is, its a run-on.

You're going to have to help me out, whats significant with that sentence?

[Slandaar]

Why do you think/thought before today Rainbow is town?

[Rainbowdash]

Masons - Alice, Kondi, Blueberry
Scum - Slandaar/rhinox/ETA/Haze combo

(hence me going hard for ETA)

I made a post showing your interactions with Elmo, I dont remember seeing this. How strange.

The point where after the mason claim I was the driving force getting him lynched over Blue and Kass?

[rainbow- I don't really like the "vote nolynch no nevermind". Its out of your character this game. I don't believe you would suddenly on the last day stop thinking through your thoughts before you post them, or forget that alice is a conftown mason. So why did you do it?

It is really that I just did the knee jerk reaction of "four alive, play is no lynch" until I remembered it later.

Rainbow what benefits are there for me as scum to leave alice alive?

Biggest one is that she was somewhat suspect of Rhinox according to the recent play, and my post about pairing points to a rhinox-scum if kass was town one as a legitimate option. Rhinox has openly shown that he suspects you, and I was pushing on you pre-mason claim. Alice dying left (suggested) votes at making it you vs Rhinox with me playing the tiebreaker. Why leave Alice alive in that situation?

Also answer my question. Why did you make a Kass vote after I out masons which points to Blue-scum, which you apparently heavily agreed with and were about to make an awesome case on or something to that extent.

To try and clarify that run-on

My interaction diagram (not a concrete design one but who pushed on who) left the Haze and Blue slots looking wide open for being mason since they got ignored by just about everypony. As they were both middling reads, I really wanted to see the massclaim occur since if either were mason it would help out a whole lot for picking out scum, and as you saw mason claim handed ETA and Blue to us on a platter.

[Rainbowdash]

Im actually not even going to beat around the bush on this one, I know where my vote is headed.

Vote Slandaar

The first few page interaction with ETA is shifty as heck. Lots of borderline coaching words, but he keeps the RVS vote out while pointing out some odd stances that ETA took. The day that I get the mason claim, he votes me in response to attacking him to start. After that though, despite mention of Blue scum, he jumps on Kass.

That is what makes no sense since

1) I didnt claim mason, there is no reason he should have unvoted me
2) Kass was the only VT claim I really had the door open on as possible lynch

The first one is probably explained by the fear of ticking off the top pony. I just put massive pressure on the scumteam there by saying "All three in these five" with the additional point of "Not Slandaar and Kass". I recently won a game (partial crash loss) as scum where something similar was building in a nightless setup. I had a partner not in a good spot, and there were a few town that looked not-scum with him. This ment that I had to get them lynched first, and had to entrely base my pushes off that in order to make sure no town got clear.

If I bring this up, Slandaar has to make it a top priority to get rid of Kass because if I continue to push on him and he gets lynched, Kass just became a very hard lynch.

Him NOT attacking Blue is odd too, he does put a little pressure on him, but I come in and break open the game with a massclaim. Blue was square in the pool though, continuing the push there would have made perfect sense. Instead he sheeps where I am pushing hard, and lets face it, that was what scum needed to do there.

Slandaars play around that whole thing gives him away. His attack on Blue mysteriously disappears when I give evidence for a group with Blue in it being scum, and he immediately jumps on the town who is almost for sure NOT scum with him instead. This doesnt even mention the fact that I did nothing that should have changed his scum read of me, but I did become somepony you didnt want to piss off because of how right I was about his partners. You really think he is going to want to keep challenging me when I am that right? If I get my ETA lynch he would be following him super close.

I am willing to draw the line in the sand here and just put the vote down.

[Slandaar]

Masons - Alice, Kondi, Blueberry
Scum - Slandaar/rhinox/ETA/Haze combo

(hence me going hard for ETA)

I made a post showing your interactions with Elmo, I dont remember seeing this. How strange.

The point where after the mason claim I was the driving force getting him lynched over Blue and Kass?

They were all getting lynched, to claim credit for lynching Elmo over Blue is supposed to mean something?

Biggest one is that she was somewhat suspect of Rhinox according to the recent play, and my post about pairing points to a rhinox-scum if kass was town one as a legitimate option. Rhinox has openly shown that he suspects you, and I was pushing on you pre-mason claim. Alice dying left (suggested) votes at making it you vs Rhinox with me playing the tiebreaker. Why leave Alice alive in that situation?

Thats what I was asking you. Why was it me vs Rhinox?

Also answer my question. Why did you make a Kass vote after I out masons which points to Blue-scum, which you apparently heavily agreed with and were about to make an awesome case on or something to that extent.

To try and clarify that run-on

My interaction diagram (not a concrete design one but who pushed on who) left the Haze and Blue slots looking wide open for being mason since they got ignored by just about everypony. As they were both middling reads, I really wanted to see the massclaim occur since if either were mason it would help out a whole lot for picking out scum, and as you saw mason claim handed ETA and Blue to us on a platter.

It pointed to kass/blue/elmo and I always vote Kass in that situation because its Kass. What does it matter? kass -> blue -> elmo we end up at the same spot.

The first few page interaction with ETA is shifty as heck. Lots of borderline coaching words, but he keeps the RVS vote out while pointing out some odd stances that ETA took. The day that I get the mason claim, he votes me in response to attacking him to start. After that though, despite mention of Blue scum, he jumps on Kass.

I like voting Kass. I never made an RVS vote.

1) I didnt claim mason, there is no reason he should have unvoted me
2) Kass was the only VT claim I really had the door open on as possible lynch

1. Kondi claimed mason and you seemed to know he was mason, logical conclusion -> you are not good vote.
2. I like voting kass. It still makes no difference, Kass/Blue/Elmo were all dead in one order or another. Therefore I gain nothing by voting him first, in fact it puts me in this situation meaning its more likely I vote scum as scum in that spot.

I recently won a game (partial crash loss) as scum where something similar was building in a nightless setup. I had a partner not in a good spot, and there were a few town that looked not-scum with him. This ment that I had to get them lynched first, and had to entrely base my pushes off that in order to make sure no town got clear.

If I bring this up, Slandaar has to make it a top priority to get rid of Kass because if I continue to push on him and he gets lynched, Kass just became a very hard lynch.

Once upon a time...

You make it sound like I actually pushed a Kass lynch, I did not, I just voted him because it seemed the 3 were the scum team and hes my favourite player to vote.

Him NOT attacking Blue is odd too, he does put a little pressure on him, but I come in and break open the game with a massclaim. Blue was square in the pool though, continuing the push there would have made perfect sense. Instead he sheeps where I am pushing hard, and lets face it, that was what scum needed to do there.

It did not matter which of the 3 got lynched first, they were all being lynched, your trying to take credit is so scummy.

His attack on Blue mysteriously disappears when I give evidence for a group with Blue in it being scum, and he immediately jumps on the town who is almost for sure NOT scum with him instead. This doesnt even mention the fact that I did nothing that should have changed his scum read of me, but I did become somepony you didnt want to piss off because of how right I was about his partners. You really think he is going to want to keep challenging me when I am that right? If I get my ETA lynch he would be following him super close.

I said who I thinks scum and voted the one I like voting the most. You seemed to know kondi was mason... which seemed town because you would kill him if you were scum... Rhinox seemed town he was scumhunting so there was just the 3 amigos.

[Slandaar]

Now Rainbow, why didnt you explain how you 'knew' kondi is mason?

[Slandaar]

This is what I have been thinking/am thinking about

The kami nk really makes no sense, but then it wasnt kami it was spy, based on Rainbows interaction stuff he clearly is labelling people who dont post much as likely masons, so the nk makes a lot more sense from him. Also the replacement he might well have had meta with and didnt want a shake up of the applecart.

It really seems to tie to rainbowscum

Rainbow also voting when he clearly hasnt looked through both myself and Rhinox is telling also, focusing on just me. in LYLO we have time, he should definitely have looked through Rhinox if town.

The trouble is... Rhinox has fencesat today, Rainbow takes a stance, Rhinox could be amateur hour scum who left 2 townreads alive and doesnt know what to do now...

I thought about self voting but it seems bad untill Rhinox posts his thoughts... then depending on who I think is scum I will self vote or not.

[Rainbowdash]

Now Rainbow, why didnt you explain how you 'knew' kondi is mason?

I already told you that. If you take time to actually masonhunt, the D1 twilight post entirely ignores the fact that Pizza might have been a mason. That being ignored suggests that kondi is a mason. Given how brash he played, I could put 1 and 1 together to figure out Kondi was probably a mason.

The kami nk really makes no sense, but then it wasnt kami it was spy, based on Rainbows interaction stuff he clearly is labelling people who dont post much as likely masons, so the nk makes a lot more sense from him. Also the replacement he might well have had meta with and didnt want a shake up of the applecart.

Not posting and lack of telling interactions are different things. You made zero sense since you basically did a "attack everypony" game so obviously were not mason. If I had to guess Kami kill was more likely due to him attacking ETA in combination with somepony who is a decent player coming into the slot.

Rainbow also voting when he clearly hasnt looked through both myself and Rhinox is telling also, focusing on just me. in LYLO we have time, he should definitely have looked through Rhinox if town.

I have thought about it, and to an extent still am. A little bit of my vote was to try and see if I would get a snap vote back today to affirm my suspicions. That and I really think that a no kill makes slightly more sense from you than Rhinox.

unvote

I still definantly lean to Slandaar, but with no return vote im going to keep thinking about this one.

[Slandaar]

Nitpicking my wording I see...

Kami made very little interactions much like Blue and Haze

And I know you know thats what I meant