Mini 1327: Murder in the Louvre- Day 6

[shos]

well I have to say that Yos's post is almost exactly identical, except with explanations, to kanye's; and from the timestamp it seems like it really is legit. if two different people say the same without planning, which they couldn't have planned even if they're scum, it should probably make sense. I'm not quite sure what to think about the fact that I needed YOS's post to understand that.

anyway, that post combined with Elmo's response, kinda makes me rethink about that slot.

[charter]

PPE: Eh, looks like Kanye already responded with most of the same points while I was typing. Probably better that he respond anyway. For that matter, charter, if you wanted to understand Kanye's vote, why did you ask me and not him?

I understand why Kanye is voting Quilford. When I read your post it looked to me like he was your number one townie, which I did not understand. That's why I asked you. If I had questions for Kayne about his vote on Quilford, I can ask him about it.

[UberNinja]

Yos, how is it weird that I "defended Quilford early", and then said his wagon was bad once Elmo replaced in? (it was bad before, perhaps I didn't say it). There's nothing inconsistent there, but somehow Kanye seems to think there is, and I guess you do too, since you mentioned that kanye's "calling me out on that" is a point towards him being town.

Please explain.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, how is it weird that I "defended Quilford early", and then said his wagon was bad once Elmo replaced in? (it was bad before, perhaps I didn't say it). There's nothing inconsistent there, but somehow Kanye seems to think there is, and I guess you do too, since you mentioned that kanye's "calling me out on that" is a point towards him being town.

Please explain.

If Kanye is town who thinks Quilford is scum, then I would expect him to call out people who are likely scum buddies of him; not vote them until after Quilford flips, that's not smart, but calling out potential buddies of your main suspect while your main suspect is still alive makes a lot of sense as an information gathering method.

You've defended Quilford/Elmo in pretty suspicious ways several times this game. The first one was when Nuwen made a logical case and you just said she was "pulling shit out of her ass" without ever explaining why you didn't agree with it. Then you voted Kanye because Kanye voted for Quilford. Then you said:

Quilford/Elmo TeH AzN - Getting a town vibe now. I don't like the wagon at all, and if I ever did, I don't any longer.

The way you worded it it implied that you suddenly had a new town vibe, even though there was no new information, and even though you'd been defending them all game.

Anyway, all of it was pretty weird. If Quilford flips scum, you're probably his buddy. And Kanye noticing the oddness of your Quilford defense makes me feel better about Kanye.

[springlullaby]

Day 1 votecount 6

Elmo TeH AzN (4):

Nuwen, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, Furcolow,

Chiarosicada (3):

Zar, charter, Parama,

kanyeknowsbest (2)

: Elmo teh AzN, Vi,

Parama (2):

Chiarosicada, shos,

shos (2):

diddin, UberNinja,

Not voting (0):

<3

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

[diddin]

Uber: I'm not replacing out, screw you. Just because I don't post walls very much doesn't mean I have to replace because I don't meet your standards.

[Vi]

If Kanye is town who thinks Quilford is scum, then I would expect him to call out people who are likely scum buddies of him; not vote them until after Quilford flips, that's not smart, but calling out potential buddies of your main suspect while your main suspect is still alive makes a lot of sense as an information gathering method.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't true, regardless of if it's your M.O. ITT.

Now, if you wanted to look like you were lining up a backup lynch, then etc.

[kanyeknowsbest]

so youre acknowledging that quilford is scum then? it wouldnt be much of a backup lynch based on him being a scumbuddy if the first one didnt flip scum after all.

notice i ddint call him scum since quilford hasnt flipped scum yet. much like i havent called you scum yet <3

[Vi]

so youre acknowledging that quilford is scum then? it wouldnt be much of a backup lynch based on him being a scumbuddy if the first one didnt flip scum after all.

How much do you want to bet that, regardless of if or how Quilford flips, Yos2 will go after UberNinja as soon as Quilford stops becoming an attractive lynch target?

I wouldn't care so much except the quality of Yos2's reads ITT is seemingly-intentionally poor and UberNinja is pretty likely to be Town.

[Zar]

Ok, after re-reading, someone stuck out to me like a sore thumb.
Zar.
I barely even noticed him before this, but now that I've studied his play, it's almost

all

bad.
He asks questions instead of asserting opinions.

How can you claim you have barely even noticed me, when you've addressed questions to me more than once?

He rarely even follows up on those questions.

People need time to deliver answers. If I chose not to keep harassing them with the same question, it's because my focus is in something that strikes me as more suspicious at the time.

He rarely takes a concrete stance on anything.

Oh but I have. I called you scum, and gave reason for it. I call Chiaro scum, and gave the reasons for it. The fact that you don't like me calling you scum or that you don't like my Chiaro case doesn't mean I don't take a stances. Notice I keep my vote where my suspicions are?

He stays out of the spotlight on purpose.

How is calling for a wagon and starting another one willfully staying out of the spotlight?

He posts just enough to avoid lurkerhunter notice.

Uh no. I post when I find things that seem suspicious. Not that this thread is a haven of thriving activity anyway.

He doesn't rock the boat; so as not to make waves.

?? Are you a poet now?

He randomly defends his Chiaro vote unnecessarily.

No. Diddin wanted to know why people where voting Chiaro. I voted him first, so I decided to explain my reasons to vote him and given Chiaro's reaction to votes on him decided to explain why I felt my vote was still good.

And now we'll go through his entire ISO.

I think I'll just respond to wherever you've said something that can be considered an opinion, not where you've paraphrased me for fluffing. Let's see:

Look at him, he backed out of his push before it got out hand, but opted on leaving a placeholder. Already worrying about looking good?

More RVS stuff, half-ass smear of me trying to look good (i.e. the only stance he's taken so far... and the only reason it's backed up with a vote is because his RVS vote was already on me).

I kept my vote on you because you suddenly claimed to have discovered scum after an obvious joke.

Quilford: do you have any scumreads? / suspects?

Asks a question. Doesn't follow up on it.

Quilford was pursuing Parama after I came back?

Parama = Meh
I think you could maybe tell if there are other things/players you find suspicious besides your shos thoughts, rather than pulling a victim card. #justsayin'

Either this is coaching a scumbuddy, or it's coaching a townie. I can't tell which.

ANSWER: None of the above. I'm saying Parama's reaction strikes me as unhelpful rather than alignment telling. Parama = Meh = Null.

Zar, are you scum?

Nope.
(Ninja: just go read your ROLE PM closely, you'll notice my name is not listed among your night time buddies. xD)

Nervous reaction joke, fearing that saying "Nope" wouldn't be convincing enough... then jokes about me being scum instead of him.
It's becoming obvious.

That you're stretching? Yeah, It is becoming obvious. Because what I am doing there is asserting my suspicion on you in a condescending tone.

tell me then
at exactly which post did RVS end?

Okay Parama, please tell me you're not implying that RVS is a well-defined and separate game stage?

Takes a dig at Parama for what Parama is extremely obviously already criticizing someone else for.

a) not paying attention to context
b) trying to make someone else look bad/foolish

Nothing in Parama's question makes it clear that he's not implying what I asked him. I wanted clarification.

whatever I think is scummy, I mention, Zar. so you can go over my posts and see about specifics; so far there haven't been incredible scumslips in my opinion, but only slightly scummy things. Diddin and Uber and Parama are my top three so far. I think the case on quilford isn't quite legit, but I want to see more about how people play here so I'm kinda avoiding stating my thoughts about that.

^^ I think this is a genuine response and most like to come from a townie player. So I'm currently leaning townish on shos.

also, you can see my last post right on top of you for example - what's OMGUSy in my play? O_o

What I considered OMGussy of your play comes from me ISOing you. It seemed to me your suspicions on players are focused on those that have either attacked you or voted you.

Did his consideration regarding shos' OMGUSy behavior revert, based on his new "currently leaning townish" read on shos?
No, but it's convenient to have a "leaning townish" read on shos if he does end up flipping town.

Eh, last time I checked, we really don't have a certainty of anyone's alignment. The best way I know to narrow my suspect pool relies on reactions to votes and reactions to reactions. So, based on this, I find players more suspicious than others based on the way they respond to posts. Also being OMGUssy =/= being scum, it only means that the reason driving those cases doesn't seem good.

Is it conclusive that he's scum? No. But it's surprisingly unnoticeable and I'm getting strange vibes from it.

Wishy-washy.

I'll be honest: before I made this post, I was like 100% convinced Zar was scum. As I went through the ISO and commented on everything though, I began to see that a lot of what he was saying could possibly come from a town mindset too... Even so, it's striking me as odd, and if I was a cop, he's who I'd inspect tonight -- no doubt about it.

This is a pretty safe stance. It asserts a supposed scumread, but then quickly backs off. It suggests game strategy, which could well be interpreted as an attempt of pretending to be helpful without being fully committed . The tone of the case to me like what somebody would do if he were interested in sensing the momentum to try to divert a wagon. Whether this case is a direct result of the Chiaro wagon is TBD.

[UberNinja]

If Kanye is town who thinks Quilford is scum, then I would expect him to call out people who are likely scum buddies of him; not vote them until after Quilford flips, that's not smart, but calling out potential buddies of your main suspect while your main suspect is still alive makes a lot of sense as an information gathering method.

Why have I heard "looking for associative tells on Day 1 is worthless" so many times then?

You've defended Quilford/Elmo in pretty suspicious ways several times this game. The first one was when Nuwen made a logical case and you just said she was "pulling shit out of her ass" without ever explaining why you didn't agree with it.

If "logical case" now means "making incorrect statements about someone and then voting them for it", then yeah, that was an extremely logical case. How is it suspicious to tell someone they're pulling shit out of their ass? She was. So I called her on it.

Quilford/Elmo TeH AzN - Getting a town vibe

now

. I don't like the wagon at all

, and if I ever did, I don't any longer

.

The way you worded it it implied that you suddenly had a new town vibe, even though there was no new information, and even though you'd been defending them all game.

Here I fixed it for you then.

Nuwen's case on Quilford was shit, and kanye's shit about Elmo is shit too.

Anyway, all of it was pretty weird. If Quilford flips scum, you're probably his buddy. And Kanye noticing the oddness of your Quilford defense makes me feel better about Kanye.

Who's scum if Quilford flips town?

[UberNinja]

Just because I don't post

walls

very much

at all

doesn't mean I have to replace out.

FTFY, and, well, of course not. I just said I would like for you to post more. No use getting your knickers in a twist, girl.

[UberNinja]

so youre acknowledging that quilford is scum then? it wouldnt be much of a backup lynch based on him being a scumbuddy if the first one didnt flip scum after all.

How much do you want to bet that, regardless of if or how Quilford flips, Yos2 will go after UberNinja as soon as Quilford stops becoming an attractive lynch target?

I wouldn't care so much except the quality of Yos2's reads ITT is seemingly-intentionally poor and UberNinja is pretty likely to be Town.

Sweet, I knew I wasn't the only one who saw that. Let's lynch the fuck out of Yosarian.

Unvote; Vote: Yosarian

Furcolow, Elmo, Parama, smart people, make this happen.

[UberNinja]

Ok, after re-reading, someone stuck out to me like a sore thumb.
Zar.
I barely even noticed him before this, but now that I've studied his play, it's almost

all

bad.
He asks questions instead of asserting opinions.

How can you claim you have barely even noticed me, when you've addressed questions to me more than once?

Barely pinged my scumdar, etc. I don't like people that slip under my radar.

He rarely takes a concrete stance on anything.

The fact that you don't like me calling you scum or that you don't like my Chiaro case doesn't mean I don't take a stances.

I don't give a flying fuck if you call me scum.

And I agreed with Chiaro being scummy, smart guy.

Notice I keep my vote where my suspicions are?

Cool story bro, what's your stance on Yosarian then?

?? Are you a poet now?

Yes, yes I am.

tell me then
at exactly which post did RVS end?

Okay Parama, please tell me you're not implying that RVS is a well-defined and separate game stage?

Takes a dig at Parama for what Parama is extremely obviously already criticizing someone else for.

a) not paying attention to context
b) trying to make someone else look bad/foolish

Nothing in Parama's question makes it clear that he's not implying what I asked him. I wanted clarification.

No.

Last time I checked, we really don't have a certainty of anyone's alignment.

Trying too hard to imply you're town...

Is it conclusive that he's scum? No. But it's surprisingly unnoticeable and I'm getting strange vibes from it.

Wishy-washy.

Yep, more so than I would have thought when I started, hence why you're only my fourthish choice to lynch.

I'll be honest: before I made this post, I was like 100% convinced Zar was scum. As I went through the ISO and commented on everything though, I began to see that a lot of what he was saying could possibly come from a town mindset too... Even so, it's striking me as odd, and if I was a cop, he's who I'd inspect tonight -- no doubt about it.

This is a pretty safe stance. It asserts a supposed scumread, but then quickly backs off. It suggests game strategy, which could well be interpreted as an attempt of pretending to be helpful without being fully committed . The tone of the case to me like what somebody would do if he were interested in sensing the momentum to try to divert a wagon. Whether this case is a direct result of the Chiaro wagon is TBD.

Call it safe if you want, it's honest is what it is.

Are you suggesting that I'm trying to chainsaw attack on Chiaro's first attacker because I think it'll help get the wagon off Chiaro... ...even though the main wagon is Elmo/Quilford and I could have just laid low if I was scum with Chiaro?

Yyyeeeeaaahhhh.

[Yosarian2]

If Kanye is town who thinks Quilford is scum, then I would expect him to call out people who are likely scum buddies of him; not vote them until after Quilford flips, that's not smart, but calling out potential buddies of your main suspect while your main suspect is still alive makes a lot of sense as an information gathering method.

Why have I heard "looking for associative tells on Day 1 is worthless" so many times then?

You don't try to lynch someone because of who you think their buddies are when you don't even know if their buddies are scum. That's just foolish, basing assumptions on top of other assumptions.

On the other hand, if you think person A and person B might be linked, and you're trying to lynch person A, you want to get as much in the way of reactions out of person B about person A as you possibly can while person A is still alive; it's just a gold mine of information.

You've defended Quilford/Elmo in pretty suspicious ways several times this game. The first one was when Nuwen made a logical case and you just said she was "pulling shit out of her ass" without ever explaining why you didn't agree with it.

If "logical case" now means "making incorrect statements about someone and then voting them for it", then yeah, that was an extremely logical case. How is it suspicious to tell someone they're pulling shit out of their ass? She was. So I called her on it.[/quote]

If Quilford flips scum, then the way you've been defending him is quite suspicious, UN. In any case, as I already pointed out, Nuwen's statements were just factually true.

[Yosarian2]

so youre acknowledging that quilford is scum then? it wouldnt be much of a backup lynch based on him being a scumbuddy if the first one didnt flip scum after all.

How much do you want to bet that, regardless of if or how Quilford flips, Yos2 will go after UberNinja as soon as Quilford stops becoming an attractive lynch target?

Well, yes, I was pretty clear about UN being my other main suspect. I was suspicious of UN before I was suspicious of Quilford; UN is incredibly scummy independent of Quilford/Elmo's alignment.

I wouldn't care so much except the quality of Yos2's reads ITT is seemingly-intentionally poor and UberNinja is pretty likely to be Town.

...ok, that one you're going to have to explain to me. How could anyone think UN of all people is plausably town here?

I have to say I am really starting to wonder about the quality of your reads here, Vi. You still haven't explained why Kanye is likely to be scum.

[Vi]

so youre acknowledging that quilford is scum then? it wouldnt be much of a backup lynch based on him being a scumbuddy if the first one didnt flip scum after all.

How much do you want to bet that, regardless of if or how Quilford flips, Yos2 will go after UberNinja as soon as Quilford stops becoming an attractive lynch target?

Well, yes, I was pretty clear about UN being my other main suspect. I was suspicious of UN before I was suspicious of Quilford; UN is incredibly scummy independent of Quilford/Elmo's alignment.

So what I said.

I wouldn't care so much except the quality of Yos2's reads ITT is seemingly-intentionally poor and UberNinja is pretty likely to be Town.

...ok, that one you're going to have to explain to me. How could anyone think UN of all people is plausably town here?

I have to say I am really starting to wonder about the quality of your reads here, Vi. You still haven't explained why Kanye is likely to be scum.

Because GUT! >:-D

That and I've already explained the kanye part.

[Parama]

ehh

tbh

Chiaro or shos need to die before I'll consider Yos

but I'm not against it

[Nuwen]

Uberninja is clogging the thread. When the Elmo/Quil slot flips scum we'll know which buddy tried to save his ass. Leave it alone for now.

The IMPORTANT right now is anyone not touching Quilford's slot with a 10 foot pole. If you're commenting only on alternate wagons or ignoring this lead entirely, you're next. Weigh in.

Elmo TeH AzN (4): Nuwen, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, Furcolow,
Chiarosicada (3):

Zar

, charter, Parama,
kanyeknowsbest (2): Elmo teh AzN, Vi,
Parama (2):

Chiarosicada, shos,

shos (2):

diddin,

UberNinja,

[Zar]

Cool story bro, what's your stance on Yosarian then?

Yosarian strikes me as townish from his contributions.

#118 + #143 strike me as honest suspicion of Parama.
#145 I liked his response to UN's 144, who seems eager to stretch whatever is happening.
#154 feels like a genuine pro-town response. Day 1 is mostly for gathering information. True, you may find certain players suspicious, but hardly you will have a hard opinion on everyone (or on most players) by page 7.
#380 I like that he's asking for explanations of cases on other people have.
#403 & #414 look like ideas coming from an innocent mindset. I agree with him on what I would expect from someone looking for possible connections in the scumhunt. It's not like Kanye's case on Quilford is based on these connections (which would make a terrible case).

[UberNinja]

Yosarian has begun to look better but I can't shake the suspicion. I still want him lynched today or tomorrow.

Nuwen, is clogging the thread scummy or just anti-town? Maybe if you posted more then it wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
And do you really think I'd try to pull a scumbuddy out of the fire by running interference against Yosari2005 as a 2012ling myself? Riiiight.

The truth is, your case on Quilford was a huge stretch, and any continued case on his slot by kanye, yourself, or Yosarian is bullshit.

Furcolow what do you think about all this?

[Nuwen]

Yosarian has begun to look better but I can't shake the suspicion.

I still want him lynched today or tomorrow.

And do you really think I'd try to pull a scumbuddy out of the fire by running interference against Yosari2005 as a 2012ling myself?

Yes.

One of these things is not like the other one. "Running interference" = "wielding a chainsaw." Uberninja has consistently attacked every early wagoner against Quilford or tried to spam "CRAP CASE CRAP CASE SHIT SHIT CRAP" to get it dismissed.

~~~

Nuwen, is clogging the thread scummy or just anti-town? Maybe if you posted more then it wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
Furcolow what do you think about all this?

I'm going to clarify with "clogging the thread" looks like, especially when done by a scumbuddy trying to pull someone out of the water D1.

First, you need to get as MANY players talking to and about other players as possible. The easiest way to do this is asking for megalists of scum/town reads (but followup is rare when they can't be used as part of a counter-case, because the asker isn't really using them to scumhunt).

Make no mistake: asking for opinions on other players' alignments isn't inherently scummy at all. Asking and then NEVER CARING ABOUT THE ANSWER is just a way of generating possible content to distract away from a caught buddy. Very easy to do on day 1, when the entire game is alive and there is no nightplay to supplement reads. Check out Uberninja's ISO and count the dozen+ times he asks specific players for reads, and then neglects to followup when ignored.

Like I said, the case against Uberninja is pretty airtight when Quilford flips scum.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

So Nuwen is calling for my head and still trying to push on since the wagon stalled.
UN's chainsawing and saw the light that I'm town. This game is great IMO.

[Nuwen]

Cool story bro, what's your stance on Yosarian then?

Yosarian strikes me as townish from his contributions.

#118 + #143 strike me as honest suspicion of Parama.
#145 I liked his response to UN's 144, who seems eager to stretch whatever is happening.
#154 feels like a genuine pro-town response. Day 1 is mostly for gathering information. True, you may find certain players suspicious, but hardly you will have a hard opinion on everyone (or on most players) by page 7.
#380 I like that he's asking for explanations of cases on other people have.
#403 & #414 look like ideas coming from an innocent mindset. I agree with him on what I would expect from someone looking for possible connections in the scumhunt. It's not like Kanye's case on Quilford is based on these connections (which would make a terrible case).

Hey you. Quilford wagon.

[UberNinja]

Yosarian has begun to look better but I can't shake the suspicion.

I still want him lynched today or tomorrow.

And do you really think I'd try to pull a scumbuddy out of the fire by running interference against Yosari2005 as a 2012ling myself?

Yes.

One of these things is not like the other one. "Running interference" = "wielding a chainsaw." Uberninja has consistently attacked every early wagoner against Quilford or tried to spam "CRAP CASE CRAP CASE SHIT SHIT CRAP" to get it dismissed.

What does it benefit me to defend Quilford if he's my scumbuddy?

Your "logic" is literally worthless here.

Nuwen, is clogging the thread scummy or just anti-town? Maybe if you posted more then it wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
Furcolow what do you think about all this?

I'm going to clarify with "clogging the thread" looks like, especially when done by a scumbuddy trying to pull someone out of the water D1.

First, you need to get as MANY players talking to and about other players as possible. The easiest way to do this is asking for megalists of scum/town reads (but followup is rare when they can't be used as part of a counter-case, because the asker isn't really using them to scumhunt).

Make no mistake: asking for opinions on other players' alignments isn't inherently scummy at all. Asking and then NEVER CARING ABOUT THE ANSWER is just a way of generating possible content to distract away from a caught buddy. Very easy to do on day 1, when the entire game is alive and there is no nightplay to supplement reads. Check out Uberninja's ISO and count the dozen+ times he asks specific players for reads, and then neglects to followup when ignored.

So Zar asking questions about other people without following up isn't scummy, then when I call him out for it, it's a reaching and forced case, but now you're saying the same thing against me and treating it like it's the best thing since buttered bread? lolworthy

Why would I ask the fucking questions if I don't care about the answer?

Please save me the time of showing where I follow up on my questions by finding them yourself.

You're infuriatingly dense.

Like I said, the case against Uberninja is pretty airtight when Quilford flips scum.

Alright, I'll bite. If Quilford flips scum, lynch me next.

But who's scum if Quilford flips

town

?