Mini 1313: Blood Bowl Mafia (Game over)

[Slandaar]

I only didnt understand the nks because I didnt realise my buddies were bp.

Once I found that out it was pretty obvious to me what happened.

[Yates]

we had two confirmed players, and grey knew he was town too

This is the problem. On the flip side, *we* had two confirmed scum; Grey and BB. The fact that Grey didn't know he was miller? THIS is the problem.

[inte]

grey could have claimed sooner, instead of confirming the logic in having a gobbo godfather
i mean he did basically just go "AHHAHAHA I KNEW IT" (paraphrase) instead of arguing that he is also of troll race
forgetting what race he was, was a huge error on his part. the timing of it was crucial

[Johoohno]

@ GreyICE: Define balance (and if possible avoid getting in to specific roles)

[GreyICE]

[quote="In post 1153, Johoohno"][/quote]
A balanced game is one where, if run many times, would have a roughly equal chance of both sides winning (multiball a tad different, but I hate it, so). Roughly 40-60% range for town victory is probably fine.

An 11:2 is a balanced game for instance. 10:3 removes 1 townie, and adds 1 scum. Therefore, you need at least a way that a townie can trade for a scum through power roles, and at least a way to save one townie's life.

In this, your game failed. While a cop can possibly trade for one scum, the existence of the secret miller makes that MUCH harder. It's more likely that the town will trade 3 members for 1 scum (the cop, the secret miller, and another night kill after you lynch the miller).

The vig shots had no goddamn way of ever trading for a scum. With two bulletproofs, all they did was kill townies. That's... err... terrible. Very terrible.

Meanwhile the scum had a method of WEEDING OUT ADDITIONAL TOWNIES.
In other words, if we look at a 11:2 as balanced, compared to your game:

- There was one more scumteam member
- There was one less town member
- There was no reliable way to save town lives (blocks were by definition unreliable, bus driver same (it traded one town for... another town, scum could deflect shots with their bulletproof)
- The only way for a townie to trade with scum was tainted by the secret miller AND a scum godfather.
- The scum had methods of removing additional townies (so already down one town from 11, your scum had methods of removing more townies).

So, your game was approximately as balanced as maybe, say, an 8:2. Town has never won a 10:2 btw.

[Glork]

^ This is a pretty good assessment of why the balance was completely off. Even the scums were acknowleding that the town did everything they could and probably deserved to win, but got dumped on by an imbalanced setup.

[Scummies]

This is a friendly Scummies reminder that if you feel there was anyone in this game, player or moderator, who deserves a scummy, please don't hesitate to nominate or second a nomination here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21324

Possible Nominations for a Theme Game:
Best Performance of a Pro-Town Team
Best Performance of a Scum Group
Best Performance of a Third Party
Most Enjoyable Game
Best Mafia Catcher
Most Cunning Manipulation
Rising Star
Best Replacement
Funniest or Most Enjoyable Player
Best Setup
Best Role
Best Flavor Text
Best Mechanic/Mutation
Excellent Moderation (aka "Smooth Operator")

[GreyICE]

No. There are no scummies deserved here. At all. Ever.

[GreyICE]

This is going down in history with Walking dead and the Serial Killer who was town until LyLo.

Seriously.

[Johoohno]

I realize that I'll never convince you GreyICe that this game isn't as unbalanced as you consider it, and I guess that is due to the fact that town played really well in the beginning and felt everything was going their way, but then town made too many faulty decisions night 3 and onwards, making them loose the game.

You say that 11:2 is balanced (15 % scum), but what about the newbie setup 9:2 (22 %). True town has at least one powerrole there, but then scum has a role cop. And my game only has a slightly higher scum ration (23 %). And in my game every good player has the chance of winning one shot bullet proof with the DODGE (which I believe is a far better pick than BLOCK - that saves a person whose alignment you are sure of, instead of killing off a person you only think likely to be scum.

And when speaking of balance, town could win this game in two rounds in optimal conditions, whereas the scum needed three days minimum.

And the town did have an array of power roles at their hands (bomb to get lurkers active or out of the way; race cop to find scum; pogo stick to switch all players positions mentioned in thread; busdriver to switch towniish with scumish; and you yourself was even the key to the goon's role PM, them being able to eat was the only difference, and that was hinted in your PM), had they not been focused on outguessing the mod they would've won in the end. You could say that ton played brilliantly up until night three where they startedome clean and really using BLOCKS (Grey & Glork) where DODGES would've done the tricks instead. And Grey, when you don't come clean and say that you killed inte is a big twn failure. That would've gotten town to talk about there only being one hostile kill that night.

The scums secondary kill was also heavily conditioned. They could only succeed killing someone in their POSITION (also odd/even night) making it hopeless to pinpoint who they wanted to kill with it.

[GreyICE]

It's not just me here, Johoohno. The only person who thinks this game was balanced is Slandaar, and he's Slandaar.

You say that block was a bad choice, but you fail to note that the last scum WAS BLOCKED. In other words, the town SHOULD HAVE WON. Blocking was only a bad decision because you made the scum team insanely overpowered. But instead because scum was unkillable, that didn't happen. You talk about outguessing the mod, but the fact of the matter, Johoohno, no one gives scum vigs. No one gives scum vigs because scum vigilantes are insanely good in scum hands.

The scum succeeded three times with their 'unreliable' secondary skill. Maybe, instead of saying 'oh they got lucky' you need to say 'oh I should never have given them that skill in the first place.' Ever. Because if the scum hadn't had two shots per night, town would have swept this. If scum hadn't been bulletproof, town would have swept this. Remember, I would have shot BBMolla if I didn't think Glork was shooting BBMolla. At which point shooting Inte gave us the best chance of hitting the serial killer in my opinion. And with two hostile kills THREE NIGHTS IN A ROW no sane person would ever question that there was a second killing role. And no one would ever assume that second killing role was a SCUM VIGILANTE.

If this were run 10 times I'd expect the town to win 0. If it were run a hundred times, I'd expect town to win maybe two or three.

I note you've repeatedly failed to either link to the last time this setup was won, or mention who won it. How badly did scum wreck the town?

[inte]

grey you played poorly

deal with it

i think the setup was balanced ENOUGH so that it was fun

[GreyICE]

Dude, shooting you was awesome. 10/10, would shoot again.

You were tunneling me like a fucking moron, and 'giving up' and then trying to tie me to BB, you needed to die.

[GreyICE]

Also
I had a town read on yates
a town read on Dazzy (plus she was like, confirmed town)
and there was you.

Who needed to be shot of those 3? You.

[inte]

Dude, shooting you was awesome. 10/10, would shoot again.

You were tunneling me like a fucking moron, and 'giving up' and then trying to tie me to BB, you needed to die.

? get some perspective, i play the way i do on purpose

bbmolla was supposed to be a safe lynch, y'all fucked up hard when you tried to game it

I didn't say that shooting me wasn't a good or bad play, its that gathering information from my fucking flip is what you screwed up royally

you knew that i wasn't just scum tunneling bbmolla, yet you ignored my information

[GreyICE]

You mean when I honestly claimed my actual role that the moderator sent to me.

And we KNEW BBMOLLA WAS SCUM FOR GODS SAKE

We just had NO REASON AT ALL not to believe that there was a serial killer!

[inte]

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. I would of pushed a lynch on BBmolla as hard as I could and then leave it to Dazzy.

I see where you're coming from, but I would of played it far differently

[GreyICE]

I did try to lynch BB.

Who pushed through the no-lynch?

Yates.

So go whine at him, Inte.

[BBmolla]

This setup is unbalanced due to:
-2 bulletproof vests for scum
-Secret Millers rendering a "cop" useless
-2 possible night kills per night.

[Johoohno]

Sorry about missing the link to the previous game, though I'm not sure how much you can make out of it, since it's on a Swedish site (Link). Mafia won that game and I reworked the setup after it (that being a smaller nine player setup in the beginning, with only one troll and a godfather on the scum side).

This setup is unbalanced due to:
-2 bulletproof vests for scum
-Secret Millers rendering a "cop" useless
-2 possible night kills per night.

2 one shot bullet proof!
Cop was far from useless: It was in fact that which led Glork to BBmolla in the first place. And since the townie role-PM in the first post said "Gobbo" a player receiving a role-PM saying he was troll should sooner or later realize that he is something out of the ordinary, especially when a race cop outs himself with a guilty result. GreyICE did something close to it, but neither he nor town followed up on it.
Still, the kills were heavily limited (and Grey exaggerating them to three doesn't make them that many successful ones.

[GreyICE]

The point remains thus:

The town lynched two scum
The town lynched one townie
The town vigged one scum
The town vigged one townie

That's shooting much better than 50%, that's insanely good. Town loss is... poor.

And saying I should 'figure something out' is ridiculous. Y'know, Trolls are part of the Goblin team in blood bowl, why would I

outguess the mod

and figure out I was a miller?

[Glork]

It was in fact that which led Glork to BBmolla in the first place.

You have that backwards. I suspected BBMolla was busing Slandaar, and wanted a guilty to confirm it. Suspicion led to the cop result, not the other way around.

But I backed off because of the Troll/Miller claim. Your setup is exactly what made the cop useless.

[Glork]

Still, the kills were heavily limited (and Grey exaggerating them to three doesn't make them that many successful ones.

ONE SINGLE SCUMGROUP

made SEVEN kills in FIVE nights. How the FUCK can you call kills "limited"?

It's apparent that you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about, or how to balance a game.

[TheButtonmen]

You say that 11:2 is balanced (15 % scum), but what about the newbie setup 9:2 (22 %).

Yeah GreyIce I mean 5 man vengeful is balanced and it's 3:2 (40%).

[TheButtonmen]

I mean you just need to ignore all the PR's and mechanics 'cause balance is all about scum precentages ya know?