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Post Post #1300 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:43 pm

Post by Benmage »

Junpei wrote:I would take myself, Kublai Khan, and Librarian before I pick you. And this is coming from someone who has seen you in multiple games the past year. You don't show someone with a lot of skill like you claim you have. The biggest target in this game? Do you mean who has the most skill in this game or who is the hardest person to bring down or who is playing the best this game?

The best overral
And the hardest to bring down, would both be me.

The best this game.. lol, I'm far down on that totem pole.

Out of curiosity, what games over the past year of mine did you follow?
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Post Post #1301 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:49 pm

Post by HezLucky »

Benmage wrote:And All you've done is looked at me.



At least admit you haven't even bothered to read the game.

Oh wait

Benmage wrote:
Granted there's a ton I haven't read.
GUYS I HAVEN'T READ _ANY_ OF THE GAME


Where is our vig?

Funny how most of the things Benmage is accusing me of are flat out wrong. He hasn't even bothered to ISO me to see that he's wrong, much less read any part of the game that does not include his name.


Junpei wrote:...Hate to break it to you... but you aren't a big target; your scummy means really nothing to any of us. Rest of your case seems more like you got anti-tunnel-vision. He attacked you and you felt that therefore he must be scum and formed those opinions.


He's overreacting. It's fine. I'm just going to smear him until he's dead. If he wants to actually scumhunt, I will happily let him breathe :).

But he's not interested in that. Nope.


Maxous: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21848 Post 3. Admits he can't "read vets at all".

I actually thuoght it was something from this game. Holy shit. I'm using META on mastin. His own words againts him. LOLOLOLOL.


Hey Ben. Remember when you wanted reads from me? And I eventually gave them? Now it's your turn. Reads on everyone. GO.

(Take as long as you need. I'll be surprised if you even get it done.)
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Post Post #1302 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:50 pm

Post by Junpei »

Oh, well I'm the best player in this game without a doubt. I'm also the hardest to bring down, and I'm also not the best this game. I have an open offer where if someone wants tips on their play after a game I'll always give it to them. You have to come to me though.

As for your games, I can't say all of them, but Bastardmind of Sin (it was MoS' bastermod game) I read a bit of.
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Post Post #1303 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:56 pm

Post by Benmage »

HezLucky wrote:
Hey Ben. Remember when you wanted reads from me? And I eventually gave them? Now it's your turn. Reads on everyone. GO.

(Take as long as you need. I'll be surprised if you even get it done.)

I won't waste my time.
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Post Post #1304 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:56 pm

Post by HezLucky »

Benmage wrote:
HezLucky wrote:
Hey Ben. Remember when you wanted reads from me? And I eventually gave them? Now it's your turn. Reads on everyone. GO.

(Take as long as you need. I'll be surprised if you even get it done.)

I won't waste my time.


It's a waste of time to scumhunt?

Do you even have reads? Yes or No?

You have been beyond useless this game.
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Post Post #1305 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:57 pm

Post by Benmage »

Junpei wrote:Oh, well I'm the best player in this game without a doubt. I'm also the hardest to bring down, and I'm also not the best this game. I have an open offer where if someone wants tips on their play after a game I'll always give it to them. You have to come to me though.

As for your games, I can't say all of them, but Bastardmind of Sin (it was MoS' bastermod game) I read a bit of.

Lol, I'll take the lack of mentioned games for what it is.

And that game. Well the mod nominated me for a scummy for best effort in a losing cause. SO I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
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Post Post #1306 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:00 pm

Post by Benmage »

HezLucky wrote:
Benmage wrote:
HezLucky wrote:
Hey Ben. Remember when you wanted reads from me? And I eventually gave them? Now it's your turn. Reads on everyone. GO.

(Take as long as you need. I'll be surprised if you even get it done.)

I won't waste my time.


It's a waste of time to scumhunt?

Do you even have reads? Yes or No?


You have been beyond useless this game.

Past pg, 30? 100% true.

But I've never replaced out of a game, and I won't here because I am quite able to 180 this. (besides replacements ruin games)

I dont have any up todate reads, so we can put that down as a 1.

And I have a lot of things I'd rather do involving my method of scumhunting that I think would be alot better than methodically going over everyones play. (I'll be going over a lot of peoples) But it won't be one succinct post of brief summaries.

But anyways we aren't talking about anything here. This whole thing is pointless. So yeah. I'd love to get crackin as soon as I can.

Wanna summarize the game? Whose scum (besides me)?
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Post Post #1307 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:03 pm

Post by Junpei »

I don't have enough games because there are ongoing games as well I'm tabbing.

And MoS nominating you for a scummy isn't impressive to me, I don't see why I should hold his opinion high at all.

Now what's your read on Mastin and why.
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Post Post #1308 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:28 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Spoiler: Hez
Hez wrote:Yes because you can CLEARLY pick out every member of every scumteam.
I'd be the first to admit that my second scumteam isn't solid. (Ohright, I already did.) But I do have one, yes. And none of the members in said scumteam have been really playing poorly. They just haven't been playing well enough to have escaped.

ALL of them are playing SO POORLY.
Macros has no wagon on him, and his wagon peaked at an almighty 3; that's totally bad play on his part, right? Khan's had a few people with bad gut reads, but is almost universally a townread; that's totally bad play on his part, right? Their individual play isn't bad. (Junpei notwithstanding. *points to wagon having formed on him without my help*.) It's their interactions which have given them away, as I will explain soon enough.

Hez wrote: All the people mentioned have been suspected at some point.
And a quick look at my Iso will reveal that almost all of them have been suspects of mine, many before others had opinions on 'em.

You claim you are unfamiliar with the site meta of old players and then you go on to hold it against Macros.
That's not what I said at all*. I said that from what I can tell, Macros hasn't kept up with current site meta (he didn't know what a hydra was, for instance), and that therefore, his style of play would be more reminiscent of an older style--and in said older style, he displays several classic scumtells. Pretty much all scum players nowadays know not to do the things I listed in my case as scum, because they're seen as scummy and will come to bite them. Macros likely didn't know any better, and therefore, would be more suspicious than any other player pulling said moves, because (to him) they were smart scum moves in the day.

I'll fully admit, I wasn't around to see the good classic days--but I've heard them described. I've read some games from back then as well. In them, you can see things which used to be revolutionary plays that were incredibly smart (such as the concept of bussing, which used to be nonexistent on the site) that are now standard and/or dead tells because everyone knows about/does them so they're no longer as good as they were.

*This still applies to the "I can't read vets" comment I have made multiple times, which is different than "not being familiar with old meta"; the two are NOT the same. By Vets, I mean people like Yosarian2, CrashTextDummie, MrBuddyLee, Glork, and other people like that--people who have actively kept up with the current site meta (more or less) and have adapted, fitting in and playing so well that I can't really read them until much later in the game by following Yosarian2's advice on how to read people like him. These people are typically those with joindates of 2005-2007, give or take a year. (Total range, 2004-2008, pretty much.) A player like Macros who is much older yet hasn't been keeping up with the site is actually far easier to read--sure, technically he's more of a "vet" than even Yosarian2, but he's not a true veteran.


CodeX wrote:Mastin - can you point me in direction of a couple of recently completed games where you have been town and scum.
My most recently finished scum game is Oversoul's Mini Normal. But that's single-faction. Before that, I *think* it was NY144, eaten by tigers, and I have no clue what was before THAT. My most recently finished (as in, game over) multiscum game would be Trumpet's, though my part in that was eaten by tigers. Before that, it was way back in Mafia on Werewolf Island, which was a year ago, so I don't really have any reliable multiscum scum meta to give you. (Through no fault of my own, mind you. :P) Heck if I know what my most recent town game is. Check New York games. I've been in pretty much every single one. If you want a town multiscum game, you'd have to find Alduskkel's Fire & Ice Open; that's the only game I was alive long enough in. (Rolling in the Deep really doesn't, given my lifespan in there. :P)

I have over 70 games; I don't keep good track of 'em. :P

DesaVail wrote:Everyone: Does Mastin do this kind of thing as scum?
This exact thing, I don't think so. Things similar enough that most people can't tell the difference? Yeah, so the answer might as well be "yes".

TML wrote:Is he really saying that KK and and Junpei are scum for interaction with Macros but has those two as higher suspects than Macros?
No. Khan is my strongest scumread for reasons entirely unrelated to any other player--just him. His ties to Junpei and Macros further solidify him as scum.

Junpei is my second-strongest scumread for reasons entirely unrelated to any other player; he's scum for separate reasons. His ties to Khan and in particular Macros were enough to further solidify him as scum.

Macros is my weakest scumread because my case against him is really weak and relies a good 80-90% ON his interactions with Khan and Junpei and theirs with him. Remove the interactions, and you remove all but 10-20% of the case against him, hence why he's at the bottom of my scumlist.

Speaking of which, after I post this, I'm going to show you the interactions from the other two perspectives--Junpei's and Khan's.
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Post Post #1309 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:44 pm

Post by The Mini-Librarian »

Goddammit Mastin. Stop delaying your reasoning.

I know you are a quality writer, but I don't really care about your syntax here. Just give me bullet points. That last post of yours was just a big post saying "tune in next week for the rest". I don't care about that.

You've given about one line why Junpei specifically is scum. I want to hear what else you have.

I also want to when and why I became a suspect of yours.
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Post Post #1310 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:57 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Let's start with Junpei. You already know half of the equation. Look at his Macros read--rather the lack thereof. Even after I've given him exactly what he asked for (a solid, up-to-date read on Macros), he STILL has not shared his own opinion of Macros.
Spoiler: In-depth Junpei-Macros
It started in 1215, where I made the initial request and he asked me to make my read known first.

This was bad, because he wanted to know what others thought of Macros FIRST, as he wanted to analyze where he needed to stand in regards to Macros. Had he been pro-town, he would have come out and immediately given the read. You'll see more on this in my case against Junpei, but basically, when boiled down, Junpei-as-town would be aware of my meta, and that even as scum I use pseudotown quicktopics where I dump notes of my "reads" and my reasoning as to why--because heck, even most newbie-scum know they have to create reasoning for finding a player "suspicious", so Junpei asking me for my reasoning and accusing me of having none is itself BS.

Junpei-as-scum needs to know where I stand, wanting me to give an indepth account of Macros. I call him out on his lack of Macros interaction in 1221 and say that I've given plenty. In response to this, rather than giving a read on Macros (he didn't even need reasoning; he just needed a read), he asks for in-depth reasoning for Macros. So instead of his reason being, "I want you to give me your read first", when I point out I already have, he says, "I want you to give me MORE reasoning before I give you a read." Again, this is something there is zero pro-town motivation for. I'd given my read, albeit not with reasoning, and from him as town, I would expect nothing more than a read until I had given my reasoning. But he didn't post a read--again, this is because he needed to know what evidence there was for-or-against Macros BEFORE he took a stance, because Macros is his scumbuddy and he needs to tread carefully with regards to whether or not to bus.

By now, I knew, and called him out on his dodging/deflecting in 1225, which basically said the same thing about Junpei--he had avoided the question, a quite simple question, in favor of trying to escape. And after I call him out on it in that post, he AGAIN tries to deflect here, where he tries to say that my analysis has not been in-depth by pointing out my most recent read. And then I say that I have done my work in my QT, which Junpei should KNOW that I use every game. And that I wouldn't alter or change my read in said QT in any way. (I didn't. I hadn't typed up my post on Macross which was post 60 in my QT, but post 60 was based off of 53-58 which were devoted to Macros almost exclusively--59 was where I said, "Screw Macros being town; Junpei's refusal to give a read on him makes him scum", and I had already made that post by this point in time.)

And yet despite this promise (which I upheld) that could be VERY easily proven, Junpei STILL refused here, insisting that I wasn't scumhunting. (This is of course doubly-wrong. Even as scum, I know how to fake scumhunting and in fact do so competently. The doubly-so comes from the part where I think this game is multiscum, so even as scum I would have reason to legitimately scumhunt the other team. In other words, no matter what, I wouldn't not be scumhunting.) When all I had asked for was a simple read, he continued to think of excuses not to answer and (once more, I remind you) has YET to.

I stop playing nice and demand one final time for Junpei to answer, yet he brushes my comment off, tries to deflect the conversation away from HIM giving a Macros read in 1236, and by this point, it's abundantly clear he has no intention to ever give a Macros read.

Which he hasn't.

There couldn't be much of a clearer picture linking him to Macros.
Next post, the Khan half from Junpei.
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Post Post #1311 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:22 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Spoiler: Junpei's Khan Interactions
Junpei wrote:Kublai (may I call you that?) I just want Mastin to be more focused so that he's more effective if town and doesn't spam the thread like some people already have.
You'll be seeing more on this on the Khan-interaction section (addressing Junpei specifically), as well as the Junpei case proper (about how I more or less did exactly what he asked me to and kept my thoughts focused and relatively organized and how it made me more effective as town: by nailing him), since interactions are basically the warmup. But for starters, this is the only thing he has to say on the game since his last post on me (which this is a follow-through on), which again looks out of place, as if responding to Khan should be a larger priority than anything else.

Where Khan disappears for nearly a quarter of Junpei's iso.

And coincidentally enough, he reemerges...with Junpei answering (once more) Khan's inquiries towards him here. (You'll of course be seeing a lot more on this during the Khan section of interactions. There's a dang good reason I had Junpei-Khan as scum even during day one.)

The next Khan interaction is the closest Junpei gives to giving an opinion on Khan, where he defends Khan from Psyche (we have a word for that. *insertchainsawgifhere* :P) with this:
You say Khan demonstrated awareness of post X at instance Y, and that at Y did not express concern. First, I can't seem to find this.
Khan seems to be following a very simple formula; that is an overview read followed by a bullet point case. The case is supported by observations that Khan makes as he reads and impressions he receives, requiring him to go back and look for posts he didn't initially include.
However, more to your point, Khan was present during the posts he cites as damning. What I ask you is that do you assert that any read based on things found on a reread which were not found and noted at instance Y is invalid? That is, do you assert that scumhunting town should notice all relevant posts and tells the first time through?


The next mention of Khan is much later (again, pretty much not commenting on Khan at all), and is of course in relationship to me:
I no longer mind walls; lets see your KK case, I will accept a massive wall.
...Where he asks me to give a case on Khan.

And the next Khan comment?

Kublai, Mastins' comments on Macro inthread are pretty poor as of late; I think he is not scumhunting as I've already said.
...Once more, in response to an inquiry by Khan. (But more on that, once again, when I do the Khan section.)

The closest we get to a further read is this,
I would take myself, Kublai Khan, and Librarian before I pick you.
Which was meant as a comment on amount of skill more than an actual read.
All in all, Junpei's pretty much ignoring Khan unless Khan directs an inquiry his way. Which is exactly how I would expect him to interact with his scumbuddy.

Now to Khan's interactions. (After which'll come the fun stuff, a full Junpei case using his own prized weapon against him. Did I mention that his ISO's pretty much full of contradictions? Yeah, you can take a look to see for yourself how this prized user of logic has so switched his stances so many times, but more on that later.)
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Post Post #1312 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:25 pm

Post by DeasVail »

Mastin:
Has your wagon influenced your recent posting?
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Post Post #1313 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Since it's so short, I might as well do the Khan-Macros part first. It starts in post 603, where Khan agrees with Macros's comment. This friendly(ish) stance on Macros continues
Have no idea why [rack]'s voting Macros
...Where he defends Macros indirectly by attacking rack.

9. Macros
- Tunneling on a suspect that has a low lynch-chance.
- Signs of looking busy, nullish on him atm
And yet he keeps Macros at null, a good place to keep a scumbuddy (null, but overall not bad), especially when the other is (not clearly so, but implied to be) null with a bad lean. (More on Junpei later, of course.)

And then his next relevant mention of Macros is today.
He's been prod dodging and making empty promises for far too long. The only town-ish thing that he's done that put him a (small) notch above the scum line is the fact that he had the opportunity to jump on the rack wagon, but didn't.
While he did imply his opinion, he didn't explicitly define it clearly (which I called him out on). But here's the interesting thing--the reason he's above scum is that he wasn't on the rack wagon...yet that's the exact reason he wasn't town before, because Khan said "tunneling on a suspect with a low lynch chance" (implying he should go after someone with a higher lynch chance, like rack, in order to be productive) earlier.

It wasn't much, but it was enough to confirm things. The main tie Khan has to Macros is Khan's tie to Junpei, who has the tie to Macros I already gave. And that's my next part...
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Post Post #1314 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:35 pm

Post by mastin2 »

DV wrote:Mastin: Has your wagon influenced your recent posting?
Heck no. I came home with the thought in mind that I was going to explain the interactions between Junpei, Khan, and Macros. Heck, I had it in mind as I was leaving my house, in fact, and have been thinking about it throughout the day. I knew what I was going to be posting the minute I got home, and got to work on it as soon as I could. (I haven't even had supper, yet, because I came straight to this game.)
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Post Post #1315 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:41 pm

Post by Junpei »

Yeah, Mastin needs to die. He's a rabid dog who thinks he's intelligent and bad. You could say "Junpei ignores X unless directly addressed by X" probably replacing X with a lot of people, but not Khan.

This post was not in response to one of Khans' inquiries, but something that Psyche said.

pedit: Hm, 2 Hecks and 1 In Fact. Is that contrived or regular Mastin flow? I'll read some of his walling to see.
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Post Post #1316 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:43 pm

Post by Junpei »

mastin2 wrote:Junpei-as-town would be aware of my meta

Nope, I don't know your meta. All I know about you is that everyone thinks you are obnoxious, and that for a short period of time I defended attacks against you before realizing that you are very self-centered.
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Post Post #1317 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Post by Junpei »

mastin2 wrote:Junpei-as-scum needs to know where I stand

So does Junpei-town. Also I value reasons, not reads; thanks.
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Post Post #1318 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:48 pm

Post by Junpei »

So yeah, that's your whole case: I don't know about your QT habits nor do I care; I think the QT doesn't exist for scumhunting and that you had no read on Macro which was built on any real reasoning, so I simply insisted you tell me your read. My reason?

Because you want to hear other peoples' read on Macros BEFORE you take a stance, because Macros is your scumbuddy and you needs to tread carefully with regards to whether or not to bus.

But in all seriousness, I actually think that if you flip scum (and you will) that Macros becomes more town from this, because the massive hypocrisy by you is just too obvious.
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Post Post #1319 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Khan's Junpei iso is full of goldmines--there aren't many mentions of him, but every single one of them is important.

@Junpei - Why encourage mastin2 to be less forthcoming with his thoughts?
Compare this one to all the other people he addresses in the post. Notice something different? The others look like they're scumhunting (or at least faking it). He asks good questions to Nero, rack, and CCV. (Though more on this later, if I decide to make a Khan case.) The question asked to Junpei doesn't fit the pattern--instead, it seems to come off as more of a warning. "Dude, don't mess with Mastin. It's a BAD idea. Trust me on that, okay?" This is further supported by the fact that Khan doesn't follow it through. He follows through with rack. He follows through with CCV. He follows through on Nero. But he never follows through on Junpei, with Junpei vanishing until Khan's second reads post.


- "passion" arguments are really bad.
- It's a shame that mastin2's posting style is massively distracting him from the rest of the game.
- I'd seriously like more participation from Junpei (if I may call him that)
...Where he doesn't even give a read on Junpei at all. It kinda implies a scumlean due to the "passion arguments are really bad" part, but otherwise comes across as trying to not take a firm stance on him. And note the coaching: "Junpei, come in here with more content." is the obvious one, but once again, there's a warning to Junpei--"Junpei...stop tempting fate with Mastin! Even *I* am not that stupid!"

And then he's gone again. Until
@Junpei - He asked for an example, I provided him with one, so now he's saying that my provided example is evidence of me scrambling to provide *NEW INFORMATION*.
Where he answers about Psyche for Junpei. Where he disappears again until here, where Khan only gives weak Junpei suspicion, and in fact,
Nero Cain or Pine are swinging today. (scooby and/or Junpei are outside chances depending on their contributions today)
...Junpei is last on his list.

And then, his next comment on Junpei?
WTF Junpei?

mastin2 has commented on Macros already. Why the delay on your part?
This to me looks like it's meant to do multiple things. It looks like Khan is SCREAMING at Junpei, "JUST DO WHAT MASTIN ASKS YOU TO DO, JUNPEI, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!", and simultaneously assessing whether Junpei is a lost cause and whether he'll need to bus him or not, giving a last-ditch-effort coaching attempt to Junpei.

As you can see, it's quite solid. Now for the fun stuff. It'll come after I eat, though.
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Post Post #1320 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:52 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Junpei wrote:Also I value reasons, not reads; thanks.
Then there would be zero harm in giving away the reads, now, would there, if they hold no value to you, eh? ;)

Yeah. Scumclaim.
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Post Post #1321 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:55 pm

Post by DeasVail »

mastin2 wrote:
DV wrote:Mastin: Has your wagon influenced your recent posting?
Heck no. I came home with the thought in mind that I was going to explain the interactions between Junpei, Khan, and Macros. Heck, I had it in mind as I was leaving my house, in fact, and have been thinking about it throughout the day. I knew what I was going to be posting the minute I got home, and got to work on it as soon as I could. (I haven't even had supper, yet, because I came straight to this game.)


Oh, I assumed it would have if you were town.
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Post Post #1322 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:58 pm

Post by Junpei »

mastin2 wrote:
Junpei wrote:Also I value reasons, not reads; thanks.
Then there would be zero harm in giving away the reads, now, would there, if they hold no value to you, eh? ;)

Yeah. Scumclaim.

Nope; I generally don't give reads out without reasoning, I think it is pointless because I value reasoning, not reads. You gave a read, which is nothing of value to me. I don't do pointless things if I can help it.

Also wow you have a huge ego mastin and need to die; you are stretching way too much.
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Post Post #1323 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:01 pm

Post by DeasVail »

Junpei:
If you think mastin is scum, why are you also expressing dislike for him based on his posting here?
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Post Post #1324 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:02 pm

Post by Junpei »

DeasVail wrote:
Junpei:
If you think mastin is scum, why are you also expressing dislike for him based on his posting here?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean, you'll have to reiterate your question.
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